Home Forums Birds & Dogs Upland Game Grouse Camp

26 degrees this morning.

However today will be sunny.

Got out for an hour or at the cabin on Sunday, the morning started cool and humid but became warm and humid by late morning when I was able to hunt. Found three grouse, two were older birds who ran like pheasants. I was able to cut one off after my older dog relocated 4 times. That one went into the vest. The first flushed out of sight, I think my older dog bumped it. At least he remembered how to work running birds the second time.

My 4 year old decided to stop pointing birds last winter. I have no idea why. Tried pigeons, quail, and chukar to no avail. He regularly blew by wild birds too. Had him at a buddy's who is a professional trainer and after a week he gave up on the dog. I did get two weak points on woodcock out of him and he did track and flush a grouse so maybe there is some hope. I'll know better this weekend when woodcock become legal game.

Been out behind the house three times with the 4 year old but haven't found anything. I don't think he blinked anything as the area is not the best but we can usually put up a bird a trip. Likely the wet weather throughout the nesting season had a lot to do with suppressing the grouse population. It sure played Hob on the pheasants.

Weather and moisture can really play with scenting conditions.

Lost two dog from old age within the passed couple of months.

I have one GSP "Jolie" that is 6 years old.

I had a 6 year stretch where I lost a dog each fall between late August and November. It put a damper on hunting for a long time. Even now I don't get as psyched for birds as I used to though few notice it.

I might have to rely on the wife's mutt more for pheasants this year, the odd part is it's beginning to point. Last three days it's found a pheasant in the back and on at least two occasions it hesitated for a second or two before flushing. It would be kind of cool to have a pointing Australian Shepard/Pitbull mix.

wood: I believe the abysmal MN grouse population for the last 2 years is due to west nile virus. Spring drumming counts are ok but by hunting season no birds to be found.

West Nile has been suspected in repressing grouse populations for 20 years. Rick Horton was beginning a study to the effects in 2006 or thereabouts when with the RGS but was hired away by the MN DNR the next year and the study fell through. I think the PA Dept of Wildlife has resurrected the study.

One would think the grouse would have "sunk or swum" in the last years like crows and red tailed Hawks have done which were also hard hit. I think WNV did no favors but the real culprit is aging forests and fragmentation. This corresponds with deer populations as good grouse habitat is good deer (and moose) in the north. Both of those animals are dropping and it is not due to wolves alone.

The kicker is, good habitat always has birds, marginal habitat is holding fewer than ever. The age of the grouse taken consists of more adults than in the past, at least for me. It used to be more like 60:40 juvenile to adult but now it has switched if not skewed more to the adult. That suggests either high chick mortality or lower egg numbers, which one I can't say.

Grouse numbers are still pretty good, they are still better than any other state I have chased them in other than WI. My worst years here have been light years ahead of the Eastern states though I hear they have gotten better. I hope so as any worse and they would be in real problems.

By the way, raining pretty decently here, expected to do so all day. Really wet in the woods, in addition to today's rain there has been over 6" in the last couple weeks. Trip to Duluth now, get some hardware but really to check out some gun shops. Too bad Puglisi's wasn't open on weekends.

Why are grouse populations so much better a few miles North of the Canadian border? Forests seem the same.

"Seem" is the operative word there. They actually aren't and those differences may play a factor. There are many factors to consider and we have probably only touched the surface. Countless articles and more than one book has been written on the subject and provided life long careers for many individuals. A couple differences to mention.

First, there is more than one species of grouse that is shared along this border. The Forest grouse, spruce and ruffed, are the ones most commonly thought of. They may both be grouse but they are as different as chuck steak and tenderloins even though the latter may come from the same cow. I don't know of any studies having been done on spruce grouse and WNV but I would not be surprised if they had a different reaction to it than ruffs. That seemed to be the case with Ravens and jays compared to crows.

Forest types are different. Ontario is still predominately aspen/conifer while the MN has had a significant encroachment of basswood/maple/hardwoods into the northern portion of the state. The forest "seems" the same as it is heavily wooded but the make has shifted.

On the same token, the forests have also aged and are on the backside of its prime over all. The northern part of MN was virtually logged off by the 1930s on a vast scale and has been aging ever since. The remaining logging industry has been tapering off over the last several decades which, coupled with growing numbers of privately held small acreage whom do not allow logging, has lead to a decrease in the successional forests needed by ruffed grouse. There will be isolated spots but they will not be able to provide birds to populate regions. Ontario had the same logging history but a little later in time. Being further north, the growing season is a little slower so these two factors help delay the fall off in suitable habitat due to age and the clime is less suitable for other forest types to move in.

Access is also different. ATV/ORV use and corresponding trails has increased tremendously in the last 30 years. This has allowed Hunter's access to areas that rarely saw any hunting pressure. These areas once worked as feeders to supply birds to more heavily hunted areas through the fall shuffle but now are losing some of their excess. That was first noted by Gordon Guillion back in the 1980s so one can understand how the current number of ORVs may be having an impact. Ontario has a much smaller OVR population at this time so plays a much smaller role.

This is a very shallow recap of the many factors that can affect grouse populations in the questioned area. There are countless reference materials available to help one understand this if one wishes. It is not necessary to go deeply into the subject but a basic understanding in some aspects such as habitat types can help one find good hunting areas and maximize their odds of finding birds.

Wood: Only talking about ruffed grouse. What concerns me is that the spring drumming counts are for the most part following the 10 year cycle that I have personally observed since 1984. However the last three years the actual number of grouse in the fall are far less than the spring drumming counts would indicate. Something is happening between May and October. Any "countless reference materials available to help one understand this"? Thanks. The two best reference books I have are "Grouse of the North Shore" by Gordon Gullion and "Ruffed Grouse" by Sally Atwater and Judith Schnell.

You won't find much regarding West Nile in those books, the most recent was published about 15 years before WNV was found in Minnesota. There isn't much out there regarding WNV and grouse for the reason I pointed out in an earlier post. I would suggest contacting the Ruffed Grouse Society as they have been the major force in pursuing that line of thought. The "countless" reference included the other topics I brought up as you asked for reasons in general rather than specific towards one. The same goes for ruffed/spruce grouse as there was no specificity and one has to consider both as one goes further north as their habitat needs do overlap.

I don't believe WNV is the sole or even major culprit here. If it were then there would be a steady trend downward in grouse drumming rather than the normal progression you have experienced. Odds are the areas you are hunting have aged beyond what is optimal for brood rearing so you are finding fewer broods and those birds you are finding are mostly males. Find good brood cover and you will have good grouse hunting. Good brood cover will last roughly 15 years though a good portion of that time the woods will be difficult to walk through let alone swing a gun. I figure about 7 years of hunting before the cover passes its prime for broods. It will still hold grouse for many more years and will often be an important winter cover but it will likely hold individual grouse and not broods.

As always it's location, location, location. If you are hunting the same areas year after year after year, odds are they are aging out of prime. I drop coverts every year for that reason and work hard to continually find new ones. With the decrease in logging that can be a difficult task these days.

Last October ran into a biologist with the Ruffed Grouse Society out hunting. Talked to her again after she returned to PA following the RGS hunt. She had no explanation for the extremely low number of birds slaughtered at the hunt in 2018. Had nothing to say about WNV. I believe the lower bottoms and lower tops of the 10 year cycle account for the general decline in habitat as well as the increased accessibility due to off highway vehicles. I know what constitutes good grouse habitat and I do not hunt the same areas year after year. There is a steady trend downward in drumming counts that over lays the 10 year cycle. George Bird Evans commented on that well before I was aware of drumming counts so the general decline has been going on for a long time. What I do not understand is the gap between the spring drumming counts and the amount of birds in the fall. The 2018 drumming count indicated that we were 1 year past peak on the 10 year cycle but the number of birds killed at the RGS hunt was the lowest ever.

In PA, where habitat has increased, I thought they’d identified WNV as responsible for the decline in numbers.

)ur Grouse have been gone along time, 10 years anyways, across the northeast Ohio to new York they are gone,and across 6 to the big damn, they are gome.

They've certainly gotten sparse. My camp is just off 6 not far from Youngsville and we had decent grouse until the last three or so years.

Thats a nice area, Do you fish the Brokenstraw? our place is just over the line in Bear lake.

One thing I think is important that most don't want to hear is the number of predators,.. When I was a kid, hawks, fox, coons etc were not common.. Guys shot hawks on sight, and the others were trapped or hunted for their fur... Now there is a hawk on every post, coons killed by the dozen on the highways, foxes seem to come and go.. Plus in this area we have hundreds of ravens where 20 years ago, we never saw one.. Crows are also increasing.. Although there is a season, guys don't seem to shoot them like days gone past.. Remember these guys are out there everyday and night... Killing birds, chicks, and stealing eggs.. Just something I have observed over the last 50 years...

For years hunters told the Pa GC that Grouse numbers were falling drastically; and for years they did nothing. There is more than a little good Grouse cover in Pa. The GC finally decided to do something, and injected Grouse chick embroys with WNV and found out most chicks were born with WN. Well, you contaminate a pure embryo with a disease and what do you think the odds are the offspring will be born with some abnormality? WNV may be the cause, however I question the method to make the decision.

There are still Grouse in good numbers in specific locations. Bud and I moved 23 one afternoon a couple years back. This year, friends who have been doing some scouting have seen more broods than they saw last year on the same routes. Maybe something is in the wind.

Just returned from a week of trout fishing in the UP of Michigan. Over the course of the week, did not hear or see a single ruffed grouse. This has never before occurred!
Even 2 years ago I believe I heard drumming every day. Six years ago grouse were everywhere. Taking a couple for dinner was reliably easy. I can only hope they're at the bottom of the cycle.
Headed to NW Maine in later October, hoping to reacquaint myself with my favorite bird.

Greetings from Maine, the grouse are plentiful. Southern Maine grouse are very skittish, won't hold for a dog as a rule. However, in Northern Maine they will hold for a dog, many times they can be hunted from a vehicle, commonly called "road hunting here in Northern Maine.