Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats 338-06 & 35 Whelen

A few years ago-like over a decade- I resolved the larger bore wildcat question
with two Winchester pre-64 Model 70 rifles. Already had a 375 H&H along with a 338 W Magnum-both 1950s Model 70s-with controlled feed claw extractors.

A gun shop in Boise, ID had a M-70 from the 50s that was in 35 Whelen. The shop owner intrigued me
when he said it was basically a custom rifle with Biesen styled SGrade stock; re-bored, cut rifled and re-chambered original barrel & sights..
Then he set the hook:" if you don't like it-send it back..but you won't send it back". That was an under-.statement.

Then a few years later I had another M-70 30-06 that was beat up and sitting in a corner. Remembering the 35 Whelen, it went
out to the late Rich Nickle in Eatonvilel, WA. for cut rifling and boring of the original barrel to 338-06. He did his usual fine
work and I paired it with a Super Grade stock that had a few issues. It looked good and shot Nosler partition bullets into one ragged hole-which is even better.

So-I am beginning to think E. Keith was right about medium bores and elk-moose and bear. Both of these cartridges will do the
business on anything in North America. The other rifle/cartridge combination that has really worked for me over the years
is pre-war Winchester Model 71s in 348 or 348 Ackley Imp. The 348 with bonded core bullets like Woodleigh or Alaska Bullet Works-Swift
have to be seen to be believed. Like a lever action 35 Whelen. Reckon I have all the old school rifles I need-as they keep up with my style of timber hunting. Nothing else much needed
and my 270s don't see much use except for antelope.

I also like both and have had both. I think Elmer was right to go to the .33 after using a .35 in his earlier days, due to BC, sectional density. Also selection remains better in .33 of hunting type projectiles. I am also reminded of Ken Waters' statement on his Pet Loads on the Whelen that the best way to improve it would be to neck it to .338. As soon as Win brought out the .338 WM, Elmer wrote that his .333 OKH should be amended to .338 OKH. As we go back into history, we see that Whelen's first attempt was the .400 which had too little shoulder. With no USA .33 applicable (.33 Win were too fragile), it is unsurprising that he and Howe settled on the .35, especially since his goal was to go big within the limit of the case shoulder vs. headspace.

I wish I was hunting medium game enough to justify a medium bore. The 375 does it all for me but still think about the others from 333 Jeffrey to the 9.3s. The 348 has always intrigued me to especially in a vintage lever gun. Wanted to try AI version in a single shot but just don't have the need anymore. Also always wanted a 35 Rigby the British Whelen. But fun to think about.

You can argue the merits or lack of for the mediums but to me they do have a place. One thing if you want a better blood trail a bigger hole can't hurt, but then it is seldom needed.

I actually prefer the 9.3x62 in a bolt action and/or a 9.3x74R (in a single-shot) . However, I currently have a very nice custom .338-06--a gift from a good friend before he passed. As far as I can determine, it works just as well.

As another old friend used to say, "Whatever blows your hair back!"

I just acquired a very nice 98 FN 338-06 in a B&C Medalist that I'm tweaking. I've researched loads and am starting with 200 Speer and 225 Fed Fusion over 4320.

It's an unknown barrel, looks like a #4 contour at 24". Bore is pristine thru the Hawkeye, looks to be button rifled.

I'm looking for Big Game and Vv n140 load data. I also have RL-15, RL-17, H-4350 and a good selection in that burn range. Pet load data would be appreciated.

Picture is with a 4200 2.5-10x50, but the gun may end up with a Conquest 3-9x40 with elevation turret. The latter is lighter and glass is as good or better, IMO.

Gun came with Timney tirgger and Buehler safety.

DF

I own one of each. My 338-06 is a Remington custom with a Hart #3. Shoots 180ABs and 200gr TTSX to the same POI. The 35 Whelen is a Pre-64 Model 70 Custom with Shilen Select Match. Let’s just say, it’s one of the most accurate rifles in my collection. I like the bullet selection offered in the 338 cal. The 35 Whelen just has that COOL factor.

Some 338 bullets are made for the big boomers, may be a bit tough for smaller rounds.

Gotta select bullets to fit the round. I think the lighter ones may work better, at least 225 and down.

Still figuring it out. Appreciate help.

DF

Saw that FN 338-06. It is a nice Mauser and should be a good hunting rifle. I was somewhat tempted as it has a lot going for it.
Nosler 225 gr partitions or Swift A-frames will do it. You will enjoy working up
the loadings it does best with. The 225 gr bullet weight is probably best considering the modern selection.
4320 is an excellent powder for the 338-06.
The 338 Federal is just as necessary as the short magnum cartridges. In a few years it will be as moribund as the 30 Remington-lost in cyber space.

Both the 338-06 and 35 Whelen will be with us as long as 30-06 brass can be found and re-sized. The 348/M-71 with modern
bullets -now available- is amazing inside 125 yds. It is faster for repeat shots while stopping power on larger big game
is almost unique. Its the one rifle that both OConnor and Keith agreed on-and each owned.

Thanks for that info.

Just did the DBC bore treatment. Whoever made that barrel, looks like a good one. When I’m finished with the stock, will see how she shoots.

DF

What a great group of Winchesters.
338-06, 338Win Mag, 348, 35 Whelen and 375 H&H. You are set!

I am partial to the 338-06 and 375 having owned all of the above.

I am taking my 338-06 antelope hunting on Saturday, and using it for deer this fall in preparation for a Spring black bear hunt in SE Alaska next year.

Load is 200gr Nosler Ballistic Silvertip on top of Varget in Norma brass for 2790 fps.

Rifle is a stainless Model 70 Classic, SS #3 Shilen 1:9 twist, Mcmillan Edge stock, Talley lightweights with a Leupold VX-R 2-7. Cerakoted with PT&G aluminum bottom metal. Need to get a good picture and weight to post up all details.

For a lower MV .338, Hornady makes a 200 grain FTX which was marketed for the Marlin .338 express. Their other offerings are for 2400-2500 fps minimum MV, but the FTX is intended for 1800-2800 fps mv according to their handbook.

I have used the .338-06 for a number of years and I think the 210 grain Nosler partition is a perfect match. The nose is soft enough to open at lower velocities and the partician limits this on close shots. I have been awed by its performance.

I think I used 62 grains of BG and a 210 TTSX in my 338/06, which is built on an VZ24 Brno. It will go almost 2800 if my memory is correct. The ones I've owned shot best with BG and 4064.

The 210 Nosler Partition is an excellent bullet for the 338-06. It will work well on anything in North America and much game in Africa.
Comparable to the 333 Jeffrey or 318.
It is a well balanced cartridge and this 210 bullet weight extends the range and velocity.
Chub Eastman, Nosler rep and hunter-killed a grizzly with a 338-06 and 210 gr Nosler.
The bear was close range, almost ready to shake hands...........

You guys don't discount the 210gr Swift Scirocco. Another bullet tailor made for the 338-06.

This is what I have loaded in my rebored SS model 70. Heading to Idaho Saturday for elk, deer, bear and wolf starting next Thursday. I think they will work fine if I can pull the grade in those steep mountains. My legs and lungs are feeling pretty weak. Hope they can haul my butt where I need to go.
Les

Anybody with experience with both cartridges notice much difference in recoil in a 338-06 with 200/210 vs a whelen loaded heavy? I'm thinking it will be much closer to a 30-06 than a whelen.
I had a 35 whelen (on an FN action) that shot well, though it was fairly light (right about 8lbs) and was a bit of a handful with full speed 250s. It was more manageable with a Bansner stock than a later Rimrock stock, fwiw!

Recoil is one of the reasons I gravitated toward the 338-06. Had a Whelen in a 700 Classic and it was brutal to shoot with 225 and 250gr.

It could have been stock design, but it was not fun to shoot. If you can't shoot a rifle enough to be become familiar and comfortable.... I do not want to hunt with it.

Medium cartridges which launch conventional bullets at 2300 to 2600 fps are just plain reliable on all sorts of big game. GD

That is exactly why I went to the .338-06.

I have a Mauser C coming to my FFL. It will be hunted then a decision made. I'm thinking 9.3X62, but could go from 8X57 to 35 Whelen. I just think I need another 9.3. Convince me otherwise guys. 338-06, 35 Whelen, 358 Winchester, 350 Rem Mag w/bullets seated long, 9.3X62? Thanks and Be Well, Rusty

Stock design makes way more difference in recoil than whether the cartridge is 338/06 or 35 Whelen, in my experience. Mine were so similar I couldn't tell a difference in recoil at all, both being pretty reasonable to shoot, even though the Whelen was the lighter rifle.

I've had exactly the same experience and thoughts about the Whelen and the 225gr Partition. IMO those two combinations are very similar, and more alike than different in performance despite the difference in caliber. Both are very nice combinations.

.35 Whelen on a VZ-24 action in Boyd's stock pushing 250's at 2,400 just a gentle push.

.338-06 on s Steven's 200 in a McMillan Mtn Rifle stock pushing 225's at 2,450 will have you working on your prayer life!

It's all about the stock and rifle weight, the Mtn rifle has a thin, knife like butt with a thin pad. The Boyd's is wider ans softer and the rifle weighs more.

Mike

Had to be the stock design, recoil was as bad as a CZ Hogback 416 Rigby I once owned. Still soured me on the Whelen, and after using the 388-06, became a fan.

I can shoot my 375 H&H all day with 300gr TSX's at 2510fps.

Excellent 338-06 Finn Aagaard article.

http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/NickuduFiles/Members-PDF/Aagaard-338-06.pdf

DF

One of the great joys of these medium calibers is that the heavier bullets do NOT have to be pushed to anywhere like max speed for them to be extremely effective on game. In the Whelen, a 250 gr bullet at 2200-2300 fps is reliably effective on most game and.....recoil is minimized. You can push that same bullet up to 2600+fps for a little flatter trajectory, noticeably more recoil, and effective for anything on this continent.
The solution to taming the recoil is a bug squishy recoil pad like the Rem R3 or the Limbsaver. Continues to amaze me with their effectiveness.
My go to load for my Whelens is a 250 gr Partition loaded to a bit less than 2500fps. Powder is almost irrelevant, but Varget has been good to me. As has 8208, 4064, TAC, BallC2, 3031, etc etc.
A joy to the Whelen is their total lack of being finicky. You will have to work to find a combination it doesn't like.

The 338-06 comes closer to the .338 WM with lighter bullets, 225 and lighter.

The Win Mag pulls ahead with heavier bullets, not too unlike the .308/30-06 comparison.

DF

AAgaard's article reflects thorough research and experience with the 338-06 and other comparable calibers. It is a recommended American Rifleman article.
I have used Nosler partition 210-250s for hunting and they work well.
His treatment of powders and handloading detail show professional research. Hornady made a 250 gr steel wrapped solid
which would be handy for Africa.

As much as I like these cartridges, in Alaska timber I defer to the 348 Ackley Imp or the 450 Alaskan-on pre-war
Model 71s. The last Alaskan moose was shot at 90 yards with a 270 gr Hawk bullet. The close dark timber
in grizzly country really encourages the use of fast handling lever action rifles. The early Model 71 and Winchester
original 1886 filled that void -where fast repeat shots at close range may save hide and bacon.
______________________________
NRA-Life

Agree that Aagaard article is very well thought out with lots of data. Sorta like Ken Waters Pet Loads, they had vintage components to work with. I’m interested in newer powders like RL-17, Big Game, etc. 4320 is a good one, was then and is now, in the 338-06.

DF

Back when I still had a 338-06 I used more BG than 4320. It was a M700 ADL, 22" Douglas #3, in a Rem Ti takeoff stock, barreled by Mickey Coleman. Fairly light at just under 7.5 lbs scoped. I used the 200 Hornady for local deer, and the 210 Partition when heading for elk country. I wanted to use the 225 AccuBond but never found a load it liked. My standard with either the 200 Hornady or the 210 Partition(2768fps) was 62 gr Big Game with a Win primer. Not long before selling it I tried working up CCI mag primers and got better groups. I stopped below the 62 gr level with the mag primers.
I kind of miss that rifle, but getting old enough to not appreciate the recoil.

Just before I had my Whelen built I had a tough time deciding between it and the 338-06. Looking at the data it seemed the 210 Partition did not get that much more speed than the 200 gr. Partition out of my 30-06's. What I really wanted was bore diameter and round nose bullets for close and medium range hog and elk hunting, the 35 W delivered but now RN bullets are not all that easy to come by but the Hornady and Speer 250 gr. bullets have yet to fail me. Those two at 2400 fps are good for just about any use.

The Whelen certainly filled your wish list.

When I was making the decision circa 1998-2000, I was moving up from a 270. 250gr projectiles were not part of the equation. Could I have just gotten a 30-06? Absolutely, but how boring would that have been?

I had already tried the Whelen and found it objectionable to shoot in the 700 Classic I owned, just as I found the 338Win Mag objectionable to shoot.

I can not imagine needing a 250gr out of my 338-06, if I thought I did, I would probably just grab my 375.

I've never owned a Whelen; wouldn't trade my 338-06 for one.

DF

Made some changes. Did a marbling that morphed into granite...

My first such project. If you get carried away with marbling, you get granite... It's sorta growing on me.

Different scope, this one a Conquest 3-9x40 that I sent back for an elevation turret.

I'm getting loads ready to sight her in, starting with Speer 200's and Fed Fusion 225's, both over 4320, an old time 338-06 favorite..

DF

I have owned a .338 WM and loaded it with the long discontinued Speer 275gr. RN bullet and IMR 4350 for elk, this was a superbly accurate combination often producing 3 shot cloverleaf groups @ 100yds.. Now that I'm older I prefer the .35 Whelen with 200gr. Hornady Inter-lok. RN and IMR 3031 also use 225gr Sierra GK and IMR 4064 both loads are very accurate and perform well for harvesting whitetails.

DF,
I think that rifle will become one of your favorites.

It’s growing on me.

Will soon see how she shoots. Custom barrel in perfect shape, unknown maker. It’s glassed and free floated, looks to be a #4 contour. Weight about right for this round. Balances and handles well.

DF

MidwayUSA pkg just arrived. 180 gr.Woodleigh Weldcore PP SN, 160 TTSX and 200 Fed Fusion. Already have 225 Fed Fusion, which from what I understand is the same as the Speer Gold Dot, both plated bullets. Cheap but accurate and with reported good terminal performance. Should be perfect for WT's and hogs. Don't need a premium 338 cal bullet for that application.

Some have written that the 180 Weldcore was about the most accurate. Back when I had my .338-284, the 160 TTSX was about the most accurate, never tried the Weldcore.

I had sold all my 338 bullets when I traded the 338-284. Wish now I'd have kept some. I wasn't planning to get back in the 338 business until this gun came along.

Loony reasoning....

To qualify, it can't make sense, don't ya know...

DF

Thank you so much for the article by Aagaard. I have made a copy...

Those Nickudu files are a treasure trove!

I really miss Finn's writing, it was good to read some again.


Thanks,


Mike

Aagaard's writings are detailed with lots of reserach and info, always with a practical approach.

I shot my 338-06 today, sighted it in with the 225 Fed Fusion over 4320. I haven't shot it enough to know which loads are going to perform best. I was using a standing bench, set up to sight in my bud's M-70 .416 Rem

I'm not going to try 250's, thinking those are best reserved for the bigger 338's. The six bullets I now have are the 160 TTSX, 180 Weldcore, 200 Fed Fusion, 200 Speer, 215 Sierra and 225 Fed Fusion. The Sierra is said to be pretty tough, may not be the best 338-06 choice for our local WT's. The softer Speer and Fusion bullets are probably going to do well. In addition to 4320, I plan to use RL-15, BG, maybe RL-17, have them all. Some 338-06 shooters like 414/760, but I think the newer powders may be better.

Will report.

DF.

Are you sure that stock is a B&C?

Looks to me like a Pacific Research stock.

Pacific Research? Not sure. My gunsmith/FFL bud thinks it may be an early B&C before they started with the aluminum chassis, which it doesn't have.

So, it could be. It seems to be a well crafted fiberglass stock, whoever made it. And it's pretty light, like 30 oz or so. I did reinforce the forearm, embedding strips of metal from windshield wiper blades, then bedding the entire barrel channel, using tape to allow for full free float. That did stiffen the forearm so that it can't touch the barrel, even with considerable pressure.

DF

I put together my 338-06 in 1994, a Cliff LaBounty M700 rebore. I bedded it in a McM KS takeoff. Nice relatively light rifle. I killed a decent bull elk the following year with a 210 gr Partition. Since then it has taken a couple off more bulls (185 gr TSX), a grizzly (225 gr AB) and black bear (225 gr AB). I have also taken bull elk (225 gr TSX), moose (225 gr TSX), black bear (250 gr Speer) and nilgai (250 gr Partition) with the 35 Whelen and saw no difference in outcomes. The same can be said for 9.3x62 on all manner of plains game up to eland (250 gr X). Next fall I will be taking the 338-06 to northern BC for goat, elk and moose, maybe mountain caribou, bear and wolf, if presented. I will be using the 185 TSX.

Definitely try some rl-17, it works great with a 225 interlock for me. H4350 is also a great choice, rl-19 even worked pretty slick. All with 225s of various brands. Rl-16 is supposed to be more better, and I may try some after I burn through the six, seven pounds of -17 I have left.

Very nice LW rig.

My 338-06 weighs 8#'s, 13 oz as shown. It kicks with full house 225 loads, I bet that LW rig of yours talks to you when you shoot it.

How bad is it?

DF

I have made quite a few of both. The 338-06 was a bit more popular here in Wyoming then the 35 Whelen, but just a bit. 35 Whelen supposedly had factory ammo available but we'd seldom see it and I don't think I ever met a 35 Whelen fan that didn't hand load anyway. I have never heard a single complaint about either one that could be blamed on the cartridge. A few reports have come to me and one time I saw a ba dfailure when a slammish deer was shot, but in all cases the blame could be placed on a bad bullet for the job. (In the case I just named however the bullet that blew up was a 338, not a .358)
I can see a reason why there are some bullets in .358" size thast are not right for the 35 Whelen. That being the existence of the 35 Remington and it's popularity. Bullets with thin jackets, made to expand at impact velocities of 1900 FPS and all the way down to 1300 fps do not hold up well when shot at the much higher speeds available in the 35 Whelen.

BUT I see NO reason when ANY 338 bullet should come apart easily. Yet I have personally seen them fired from the 338-06 and had them break up just like a big varmint bullet. The 225 grain Hornady did this and so did the 250 grain Round nose (that one was a shock to me, but I was there and saw the deer shot, and I was the one that gutted it and butchered it and that is the way it happened. The bullet went only 6" deep, destroying some of the spine and we found the flattened empty jacket laying against the spine of the deer. My friend Randy who shot the deer had to kill it with a 22 revolver because it was crippled, but still alive when we got down to it.

I have seen the same (slightly worse) performance from one kill I made with my 9.3X74R with a Speer 270 grain bullet on a 120 pound white tail too.
So bullets should hold together at least 50% on any big game rifle in my opinion, but if you use a bullet that doesn't break up badly, any of the mid bore guns work wonderfully.

Rusty Zipper.
The 35 Whelen all day. With a 225 grain accubond at 2,800fps with 60.5 grains of Varget or a 250 grain Speer hotcore at or hornaday roundnose or spire point at 2,700fps gives you 4,000,fpe of smack down power. Using Speers load of CFE223 directly from the Speer reloading site.
Those loads should cover all your needs but If'n they don't you can always step up to the Woodleigh 275grain PPSP and 310grain round nose or solid. The other good bullet is the 280 grain Swift A frame.
Thirty five Whelen nut.
Bob Nelson

Ready on the Right.
My Whelen is built on a Stevens 200 action with a 25inch stainless barrel, radial port muzzle drake, rifle Basix trigger and Zies 3to 9 x40 scope. Tips the scales at 9# field ready.
Even with 250grain Speer hotcore leaving the muzzle at 2,700fps (yes you did read correctly) it's a real pussycat. I have a shoulder injury and it doesn't affect me. It does get your attention without the brake tho.
Bob Nelson

Ready on the Right.
My Whelen is built on a Stevens 200 action with a 25inch stainless barrel, radial port muzzle drake, rifle Basix trigger and Zies 3to 9 x40 scope. Tips the scales at 9# field ready.
Even with 250grain Speer hotcore leaving the muzzle at 2,700fps (yes you did read correctly) it's a real pussycat. I have a shoulder injury and it doesn't affect me. It does get your attention without the brake tho.
Bob Nelson