Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors What's the aversion to BACO M70 Winchesters?

Other than the new trigger system, what is the aversion to the new BACO model 70 Winchesters?

Are they really that bad?

I have a 2008 production EW in 308 that is as nice as anything ever made. I'd prefer the old style trigger, but this one has not given me any reason to complain. I simply have no opinion on the newer versions made in Portugal.

Therein lies the issue with purists

Yeah, i agree. At least jmr has one of the better ones.

So, if it were made in Finland, Germany, Belgium, or the UK it would be OK?

Nope.

If it remained in the US, with the old trigger would have a greater following.

There are those for whom nothing will compare to the pre- 64.

There are also those who feel the mid nineties 5 or 6 digit classics are a better rifle.


Given a choice between the 3 most will spend the money on the former pair.

That deserves another....... Nope.

Other than where it was built, nothing.

As for accuracy and reliability, it is fine. Well there is that trigger thing but it
is easily fixed with a spring or replacement with a Timney.

Have to agree. Can’t comment on the Portugal made variety but the SC made (especially the first few years, AMN/AMP) were very well made. And - I’ll take [bleep] for this - the MOA trigger with an Ernie's spring is better than the stock m70 trigger unless it’s been worked by a someone who knows what the heck they are doing (e.g. Redneck or Gene). Certainly not simple or with the foul weather attributes of the classic open trigger, but ...

Again, other than the undesirable trigger, they shoot well, and are well made?

I have both a pre-64 that was my fathers, and a stainless steel 5-digit "classic"
that's been my own hunting rifle for 17+ years.

I have a line on one of the limited run 7x57's that were made a few years ago. Trying to
decide quality level from afar.

Not trying to poke, but would sure like to hear the opinion of those that actually OWN
and shoot a BACO.

No BACO aversion with me.

I have three BACO FN-South Carolina, made in the USA model 70 rifles. All 30-06. Two blued steel/walnut stocked sporters ( one NIB, unfired), and an Extreme Weather. Used to own a fourth-a 30-06 featherweight. Sold it, just because I liked the sporter better, but it shot sub moa. They are absolutely fantastic rifles, from fit, finish, precision in manufacturing, to accuracy. I love the higher-combed, straight stocks. All three walnut stocked m70 BACO rifles have or had VERY nice grain, with perfectly executed checkering. Handsome rifles.

Don't know much about the versions assembled in Portugal. Never handled one. The parts are MADE at the FN South Carolina plant, but ASSEMBLED in Portugal, as I understand it- so they may be just fine.

Maybe people have an aversion to the "Portugal" barrel stamping. Is a Browning BLR lever action better if it is stamped "Belgium" or "Japan"? I had a 358 Win chambered BLR that was made in Japan, and it was a peach of a rifle in every way.

But, as for the BACO-South Carolina rifles that I have, honestly, you would be hard-pressed to find a better made factory rifle in the sub-$1000 range ( maybe even higher priced). Maybe a Sako A-series classic, or a JC Higgins model 50/51 FN m98 with Timney trigger would compete ( and I have owned three JC Higgins m50s- still own one, and have a nice Sako a1 varmint 222 Rem)

I am very satisfied with my BACO-FN/SC/USA model 70 rifles. No aversion here.

For fu cks sake, its a decent enough rifle. Obviously you could care less where its made. Buy it, whats stopping you? I wont own a Portuguese model 70. The model 70 has always been the American riflemans rifle. Ill keep buying pre 64's and classics, but thats just me.

He is asking from owners of the rifle. What's your beef if you have nothing to add ?

I’m 72. Grew up with my dad’s 1952 M70 270 and the Fwt 243 he bought Mom in’55. I’ve been a pre64 fan for 60 + years. But I have 3 BACO fwts , 2 from Portugal. They are great rifles. Accurate and with better out of the box triggers than recent NH M70s.

BINGO!!

Buy the 7x57 and go kill big game with it.

I own a recent EW in 30-06,fit and finish is great and it shoots very well. I would rather Buy an American made model 70,Un fortunately in todays world it would almost be out of the average mans price range ,and fit and finish would still not be as nice as older ones.

I have one of the limited run 7x57 lightweight/featherweight Super Grades made a few years ago. It was made in the USA, South Carolina I would assume. It is a very nice rifle with a beautiful stock and very accurate. I do not notice any issues with the trigger and I plan to hunt with it this fall.

I also have a push-feed M70 XTR in 7x57. It too is accurate and the trigger is good as well....not sure when the turn over to the other triggers was. If you like the rifle buy it......life is too short.

Have 2 new mod 70's in 30.06, a featherweight and a EW. Added timney triggers, both well made and very accurate, I wish they were still made in U.S. but still outstanding rifles.

I have 5 BACO model 70s. A 2008 M70 high grade Featherweight in 270,and two Extreme Weathers in 270WSM and 300 WSM that were made in South Carolina. I have a Jack O'Connor Commerative in 270 and a Supergrade in 7mm-08 that were made in Portugal.

Every single one of them feeds and functions perfectly. Every single one of them will put factory ammo in an inch or less at 100 yards for three quick shots from a dirty cold barrel.

What else do you really want in a hunting rifle.

BACOs are great guns for the money,right out of the box IME.

i have two south carolina fn manufactured m70's, an ew in 308 and a super grade in 270 win. both are outstanding in every way. i've killed deer, hogs, and elk with both. i like the moa trigger just fine. from all i've read the portugal m70's are equally good but i've never handled one. fact is, if you want a new m70, right off the line, you'll get a Portugal (assembled) version. if that doesn't grab you then used is in your future. i know i wouldn't hesitate to buy a new m70, assembled in portugal, if that's what i wanted. and i wouldn't give a thought to the enclosed trigger versus the older version. ymmv.

I will never own another BACO M70... don’t like the MOA trigger, and only want “Made In Portugal” on my bottles of Port. A “real” M70 has the original trigger and is made in New Haven, CT... or at least somewhere in the USA.

That pretty well sums up my opinion.

These days most Deer skin gloves are assembled in China. That makes me more upset than a Portugal Model 70.

Lots and lots of things upset me more than where my Winchester was assembled.

Ditto....

Not averse to the BACO guns, just can’t recall ever handling one.

To all that took the time to share their experience, thank you!
It's been most helpful.

shotgunjock

I've had plenty, I sold them and keep the pre 64's..

Agree 100%.

"Upset" about it? Nope. Out of my control, and I've got my good ones.

I will, however, do my part by voting again for Donald J. Trump in hopes he can bring them and many others back here, where they belong.

Yep, the model 70 shouldn't be farmed out to another country. If I'm going to buy a rifle built overseas, its going to be a Tikka... The model 70 has been a piece of American history. The new ones are a browning import as far as I'm concerned...

This is as close to "Made In Portugal" any M70 I own will ever get

I am curious to learn what the factual issue(s) why BACO "assembled in Portugal " rifles may be lower in quality compared made/assembled in USA?

Many strong OPINIONS, but no facts, or finite issues about Portugal-assembled model 70 rifles.

Can anyone provide a finite quality issue with Portugal-assembled model 70 rifles? The Craftsmen there may be every bit as talented as USA workers. Maybe not, don't know. Has anyone who has owned or handled a Portugal-assembled m70 encountered a quality issue with it?

Just the facts please.

I suppose we all should throw rocks at Mausers, Tikkas, Sakos, and CZs, since they're also made in Europe.
Oh, and M1917s too - they are a European design.

I did some research on this 2-3 years ago, and discovered that the reason "assembly" was moved to Portugal was the assembly in South Carolina was at a plant mostly focused on military rifles. Consequently they did not know how to deal with walnut stocks--and the Portugal gunsmiths did. Which is why the assembled-in-Portugal walnut stocks are pretty nice--and the rifles shoot so well.

I know the last from buying and shooting some of the Portugal-assembled rifles, rather than guessing. They are more accurate and reliable out of the box than pre-'64 Model 70s--and the most recent New Haven rifles.

I have a Portugal-assembled 280 FWT. Sweet rifle. I can't see any difference between it and the SC manufactured 70's And it's a dang sight better than some of the "Made in USA" guns that came out of NH in the last few years there.

Fact: The New Haven USA Model 70 trigger is the finest hunting trigger ever made. Other than that, nobody has said anything about Portugal guns being lower quality. I will personally never know as long as they have their current trigger.

Maybe the craftsmen there are just as good.... not the point. The point is the Model 70 has been the AMERICAN riflemans rifle since 1936, and some of us true American patriots are not interested in one made ANYwhere else. Pretty simple.

If I needed another Model 70, which I don't, I would buy one of these without a second of hesitation.

Winchester makes what appears to be a great rifle and it is shunned by some because it is not made here. And you become a “True American Patriot” by doing so? Help me Rhonda!!!!

Wonder how many of those patriots are not driving American cars, or using Leupold’s, or typing here on something that came out of China. What a hoooot!!!!

A Portuguese made “Winchester” is exactly like this, an older American Co. now made offshore - an ignoble end. "The British are coming! Hide your Kim Chi!"

Three if by FedEx....

Classic Patriotic American revolutionary marketing. I like it....👍😃

Winchester 70/ wrote:

"...Fact: The New Haven USA Model 70 trigger is the finest hunting trigger ever made. Other than that, nobody has said anything about Portugal guns being lower quality. I will personally never know as long as they have their current trigger.".

The BACO is a fine trigger. Never had an issue with the multiple rifles I own/use.

Just what is the fault of the new trigger people write about? Design issue? What issue? Quality issue? What flaw?

The only thing I have read, which objective, is that some would like a lighter trigger pull, and the BACO trigger "only" goes down to 3.5#. There is a simple, low-cost solution, by getting a spring set from Earnie the gunsmith.

So, what is the flaw of the BACO trigger, besides, " I just don't like it.". Facts , and actual reports of issues only please.

“Model 70: The Rifleman’s Rifle” (From where they still know how to make them right.)
As the Fed Ex plane lifts off and “Oh beautiful for spacious skies” plays softly in the background.

Winchester sees this, and I’m thinking my phone is going to get even more annoying.I should have went into marketing instead.

It may snow....

Any reports of the BACO trigger failing from use in snow? Have you experienced it? Has anyone?

Someone must have sometime, someplace and somewhere. Or 'It could happen", and if it does you can't fix it with your trusty toothpick. Perhaps a bic, but they come out of China. Very unpatriotic...

(Looking around I see ads popping up for Meopta, Zeiss, Athelon, etc. How this place stays open is a miracle.)

Opps, there is one for toenail fungus....WTH

So, the truthful answer is, "No. No reports of failure with the BACO trigger."

Patience....

In the beginning a couple did go bang when they weren’t supposed to. Perhaps another example of the Carolina boys not being up to speed on assembly.

The Model 70 after all always was a Yankee original.

Nothing more than the old Ford/Toyota thing.

When BACO moved M70 production to SC and introduced the MOA trigger I threw up a little in my mouth. I understood the move to SC from an economic POV, but the MOA trigger was purely a lawyer's move. Regardless, I eventually owned two different SC made BACO M70's with MOA trigger's. The trigger is a crappy design for an enclosed trigger (it's made to be lawyer proof), being nothing on par with the excellent Kimber trigger. Regardless, with an Ernie's Spring Kit I got both triggers to the 2.75 lb range. I'd call them "ok." However, when an American Icon moves production offshore I'm out. I'll never, and I do mean never, own a Portuguese Assembled M70. I can't fathom having "Assembled In Portugal" stamped on an M70 barrel on an elk mountain in the Rocky Mountain West.

The final straw was snapped, and I have a line which BACO crossed.

And BTW, I have nothing against Portugal. I've been there, a lovely country with fine people (and Porto!). Portugal is the South Carolina or Alabama of Europe given a quality workforce and lower wages. Leica makes their rangefinders there, and I've had a couple marked as such. But Leica is a European Co, Winchester is not!

No it's not.

I've had pre-64s, South Carolina Model 70s, and Portuguese assembled Model 70s. None have given me any trouble beyond accuracy issues due to my own handloading snafus.

The new trigger is fine when the return spring is replaced, and I've had NO issue whatsoever with any of them. They may be more susceptible to failure in tougher conditions, but I would not know because I have not had the opportunity to hunt in places and at times that would really test it.

The objections to the guns not made in New Haven is 100% based on emotion. I understand it, and I would love to see production moved back to the States...but I personally don't care who made the rifles as long as they're done right. And they are, IMO.

That's right... as are many important things in life!

Why is it that if a Winchester has a trigger people don't like the gun is junk, but the first thing people have been doing for decades with a Remington is replace the trigger?

Just depends on how you see things. Different strokes and all that. I'm happy to make my own choices and let others make theirs.

Whether you like them or not ( I do, but understand the position of those who do not), it appears to me that their time has passed. The large gun shops that I walk through may have 1 or two FWTs, compared to many rows of synthetic stocked rifles, black rifles and budget rifles.

I have no idea how they shoot, but I would have no problem considering Classic Hunter .30-06 with ERA-Recknagel running game sights.

If I believed I'd live another 25 years, I'd make a bet with you. The M70 still be made--at least some iteration will be. It's not going anywhere

I hope you’re right. But I ain’t gonna last long enough to find out. 😊

Its not that the MOA is a bad trigger. It was something that didnt need to be messed with. Browning took it upon themselves to fu ck with a time proven design. By time proven, i dont mean antiquated either. The original design is very robust and easily adjusted and field proven. The moa just wasnt needed. Whats really laughable are the guys reading these posts and deciding they need to change out a MOA for a $120.00 timney, as that is a complete lateral movement. Not an upgrade at all, but a waste of money. All the MOA trigger needs is a simple spring upgrade, sold by erniethegunsmith.

I have done it both ways. The replacement Timeny and the MOA trigger with the spring replaced in it came out about the same. Both are light
and crisp. The spring cost was very noticeable less than the Timney.

That's what I'm saying my friend. The cost of the ernie's spring is around $7.00. The cost of the Timney around $120.00. There's no advantage to going with the Timney. It's actually a sideways move like I said, except you unnecessarily spent $120.00 on a purchase that was not needed... What a lot of guys get out of these threads is the MOA is garbage, but a lot of us don't go into full disclosure. That's what I'm doing right now. The MOA is a great trigger. It is smooth, the pull weight can be lightened to around 2 3/8 pounds, there is very minimal creep and overtravel. What I don't like about it is it was an unnecessary modification that Browning decided to do to change the model 70 and make it more their style of rifle. I like the simplicity and ruggedness of the oldstyle trigger myself and I know others feel the same way. But for someone to assume the MOA is a horrible trigger and just replace it with a Timney, before giving it a chance, that is a big error on their part...

Could not agree more, BSA.

I own 4 EW's 264, 270WSM, 300WM, 338WM. I own 4 Super Grades, 243, 257 Roberts, Cabela's anniversary 7-08, and a 338WM All Baco's made in Portugal. I have one New Haven Classic 5 digit that started life as a 270 Win until I rebarreled it to 240 Wby. I also own 5 Pre 64's, Pre War 22 Hornet Carbine, 257 Roberts made in 1958, 30-06 Transition and two 375 H&H's One made in 1946 and the other in 1960. I don't have a problem with any of them. I use the EW's each year for hunting and have bagged many head of game. When the cross hairs are on the game, it doesn't matter what is stamped on the barrel.

No one ever mentions these possibilities...

What if, just if, the Portuguese Craftsmen are BETTER at their job in assembling and finishing the model 70 rifles, than the US gun assembler? What if "assembled in Portugal" stamped rifles are HIGHER quality than the FN-South Carolina made rifles?

There were certainly quality issues with the last few years of New Haven model 70 rifles. It is safe to write that current Portugal assembled rifles are higher quality than at least the late stage New Haven Winchester model 70 rifles, which were made and assembled in the USA, by US union workers.

Or, what if Portugal assembled rifles weren't BETTER than, but every bit the "just" EQUAL of FN-South Carolina guns? No one discusses these possibilities.

It could very well be the case. We need to be objective, not emotional.

Looks to me like most commentors on this thread have agreed, or at least not disagreed that the Portugal rifles are as good as USA rifles (with the exception of the last few years at NH) However, some don’t like the idea of an American icon being built elsewhere, and some prefer the classic trigger.

Personal choice. No right or wrong.

And sections of Boeing planes are fabricated in India.
It's a world marketplace.

Two quick notes:

1. If the OP is looking at a 7x57 I believe it'll be manufactured/assembled in South Carolina since, from what I understand, that special run was made before assembly was moved to Portugal.

2. Regarding the Ernie spring v. Timney trigger, I replaced the MOA spring with an Ernie spring and it only changed the pull by a few ounces, meaning that I was pretty well stuck at about 3 pounds either way. Instead of spending the money for the Timney - I hate the ergonomics of the trigger shoe, by the way; it's obviously made for the X-Bolt - I just took my cutters and started trimming the Ernie spring. Problem solved: extremely crisp trigger (primary MOA marketing point) at just under two pounds. The biggest pain was getting the hot glue off the adjustment screw. BACO really must not want the trigger pull messed with in spite of making it adjustable.

As for the New Haven/South Carolina v. Portugal argument, not a big issue with me. I grew up shooting A-5 Belgian Browning shotguns, and the first gas gun I ever bought was a B-2000: "Made in Belgium, Assembled in Portugal" is stamped on the barrel. At first I felt betrayed: Brownings are supposed to be made in Belgium (ironic since JB was about as American as they come), but it dropped lots of redhead, canvasback, and bluebills to a heavy load of No 5s (way before the advent of manditory non-toxic shot) just like the Belgian A-5s did. So, from a utilitarian point of view, no big deal.

But I understand the sentiment about hating to see an American icon stamped with a foreign manufacturers stamp. (BTW, wouldn't BACO itself qualify as betrayal since it's foreign-owned as well?) In my mind it's sort of like seeing an old A-5 stamped "Made in Japan" even though the Japanese guns showed better manufacturing tolerances, fit, and finish (certainly the steel was harder): it just doesn't "feel" right, which is an emotional thing. Of course, in Winchester's case, it also showcases the struggle in American manufacturing over the past fifty or sixty years - which isn't an emotional thing - but that is a completely different set of arguments.

Just my $.02.

Pardon my ignorance as I've never owned a m70. I recently bought a stainless m70 ultimate shadow from a member here. The barrel is stamped Made in the USA BACO Inc. Morgan Utah. Is this rifle assembled in Portugal as well? And what do M70 guy's think of Jewell triggers for these rifles? Thanks

That one is made in USA, as it states. A jewell trigger is a fancy sob... Really not needed on a model 70 hunting rifle...

79s brings these points up all the time.

Yep. It just depends on what you want and like.

I need all the help I can get hence really good triggers. Wish Triggertech made one for the m70, they are the cat's ass.

I was at the range today getting ready for deer season on this rather cool and blustery fall day. My M70 is a BACO / Made in USA Super Grade Featherweight limited edition in 7x57. Beautiful rifle I might add and now wears a fixed 6X x 36 Leupold scope. Shot 160gr Speer spitzers and Hornady 139gr Interlock spitzer bullets equally accurate at 100 yds. What was nice that before I left I took two shots at 200 yards with the Hornadys......they landed 1.28" apart center to center. Not bad for a stock rifle that supposedly had a bad trigger. I'll be hunting with it in November......

I also have a 1980s M70 push feed XTR Featherweight 7x57 made in the old factory. Just as accurate.....can't tell a difference accuracy-wise between the two.

Also the FN plant in South Carolina was never intended to make hunting rifles. That plant produces tools for US Army and other branches. Ie M16, M4, M249 and the numerous variations of the M240 (probably one of the finest machine guns ever built) throw on top of that there source of stocks in the US the qc was horrendous. What folks don’t know is Portugal is home to all the stock making for FN. we are talking grade 5 wood for there shotguns come out of this facility. They can control qc in house.

All good points john. One of the reasons i like the early FN Herstal SPR and PBR rifles. Those were some damn good rifles with good barrels and old style triggers and known for their accuracy. I dont think Browning had their grubby hands involved in those rifles though.

A “Model 70” without the original trigger, and made in Portugal is not a “Winchester Model 70.”

It’s something else. That’s fine, just call it something honest.

Not sure what would be wrong calling it an “FN Model 60?”

I said it a several times maybe you should of pooled up you beer drinking money and worked at deal with FN and Olin corporation so you could manufacture the model 70. Also browning was not in favor of the assembly in Portugal. They said Americans don’t take well to something iconic like the model 70 being assembled outside the US. But FN thought otherwise reason I guess Europeans don’t have that emotional tie with a product due to everything over there being made everywhere. Also the individual who runs the Portugal plant is thought of very highly within FN and pushed for this. But people will still continue to bitch about it I guess..

While some may balk at the Win 70 being made in Portugal, those that I have used had better fit and finish than those from South Carolina. While us old dogs care, the younger crowd doesn't have that affinity established.

A lot of these comments remind me of a discussion my father and uncle had in the late 60s or very early 70s. My uncle had a pretty good collection of pre-64 M70s, and he was adamant that the post-64 rifles absolutely were not M70s. "It's not a bad rifle, but it isn't a Model 70. The should call it something else." Fifty years later, "It's not a bad rifle, but it isn't a Model 70. They should call it something else."

Evidently time truly is cyclical.

Rev: In 1962 my dad told me he would buy me my own deer rifle. He and Mom had M70s. I did some research and told him I wanted a M70 FWT in 30/06. The guy at the Gun shop convinced him that M 70 quality was going down and Remingtons brand new M 700 was far superior. So I got a 30/06 M700 with a 20” barrel that kicked like a mule. But I recall the same conversations that the “new” M70s weren’t really M70s and should be given a different name.

the more things change...

They cried a river in 1965. Now they make it better than ever and the crying goes on.

I’ve owned many M70’s of every genre. The only ones that gave me grief were the late model classics before NH closed up shop and the one Portugal made rifle. The best have been P-64’s, XTR’s from the late 80’s thru 90’s and SC made BACO’s. New trigger doesn’t bother me, I prefer the old style but my main hunting rifle is a SC Fwt 270 in a Micky Fwt stock, zero issues.

If I was to get Model 70 now it would be new Featherweight in .325WSM.

There is no such thing as a "featherweight" WSM... more marketing BS.

Historically, an M70 "Featherweight" is a fwt because of its barrel contour, nothing else.

Yep, and the WSM's never had "fwt" barrels on them... Just a marketing gimmick...