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Originally Posted by Swifty52


If you are using a uni-flow, put a baffle in it. Evens out the powder weight for a more consistent drop. 6-7 bucks does wonders for it.


^^^^^^This for sure; but since going from an RCBS to a Redding 3BR long ago, I've never had cause to give it any more thought.

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Originally Posted by dan_oz
I did an experiment some years back comparing velocity SD for charges produced by throwing using a Lee Perfect thrower vs those produced by trickling up on a scale. I don't have my notes in front of me, but I tried a few of the propellants I use the most - Varget, H4350, 296, and a couple of others IIRC - and I found that the velocities were at least as consistent for the thrown charges, if not more so. I've thrown all my charges since.


Shot a 300 yard match this past weekend, FTR, .223 with 69 grain MatchKings over thrown (with a Lee Perfect) charges of Varget. Had less than a half minute of elevation spread out of 60 plus rounds.
A couple of months ago, shot the same match, same bullet, same weight of Varget, that was thrown light and tricked up. Went so far as to weigh loaded rounds and put them into groups of +/- half a grain. Conditions were close, not much wind, maybe a few (less than 5) degrees different in temperature. Elevation variation at 300 yards was no better, maybe even a tick worse, with the weighed charges.
So...is thrown better than weighed, or vice versa? For me, the convenience and time saved says thrown is just as good. Of course, your mileage may vary.


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I used to throw all charges as well but recently went to useing an RCBS Chargemaster Lite. I doubt the Chargemaster is doing anything for me though I do like the way it works


Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
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Equal volume could be as or more important than equal weight. There are other factors involved in that.

My bottom line, shoot an audette test, it will tell you how much powder variation matters at your chosen node.

And a chrono can't tell you how your rounds will group either, FWIW, it can guess well, but what matters is what holes in paper tell you. Thats all thats ever really mattered.


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Originally Posted by dan_oz
I did an experiment some years back comparing velocity SD for charges produced by throwing using a Lee Perfect thrower vs those produced by trickling up on a scale. I don't have my notes in front of me, but I tried a few of the propellants I use the most - Varget, H4350, 296, and a couple of others IIRC - and I found that the velocities were at least as consistent for the thrown charges, if not more so. I've thrown all my charges since.

I've done similar testing over many different days and several loads, rifles, and chamberings. My results are similar to yours.

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Belding & Mull Visible Powder Measure

Last edited by 9point3; 10/02/19.
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After reading some of the results you guys are getting......I don’t feel too badly about my 60+ year old Ideal #55. It does fair with most powders (real good with ball powders), if I follow my powder dispensing regiment religiously! memtb


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Originally Posted by mathman
Which short stick powders give you that much variation?

Just about every stick powder I use gives me enough variation that I am not comfortable with charging direct to the case.


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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That discomfort can be overcome Jorge. With 4895 in the 308 I've shot many sub-moa 15 shot groups with thrown charges.

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Unless I'm loading only a few cases, all my powder charges (including stick powders) have been measure-thrown for many years.

Part of the worry many handloaders have over thrown charges is due to a conviction that a slight difference in the Magic Powder Charge for their rifle will result in "fliers." But other factors are far more important than, say, half a grain of powder, especially in magnum-sized big game cartridges holding more than .30-06-sized cases.

Most hunters would be far better off worrying about case-neck thickness variations, seated bullet alignment, or velocity variations due to heat/cold than miniscule variations in powder charge. But that's not the way many think, probably because their handloading mentors emphasized "precise" powder charges. One of the older handloaders I knew in my 20's would even cut a granule of IMR4350 in two, to balance the scale "perfectly."

The other factor, of course, is that so many handloaders accept the notion of precisely weighed powder charges being extremely important to accuracy that they've never actually tested whether it's true.


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It sure would save me a lot of time. Matter of fact, was loading some 308 with 46.5gr Varget and could not get consistency of +/- .5 . if you are saying that's ok, I'll give it a shot


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
The other factor, of course, is that so many handloaders accept the notion of precisely weighed powder charges being extremely important to accuracy that they've never actually tested whether it's true.


Especially when the handloader is not shooting long range benchrest with equipment that can resolve the difference.

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Originally Posted by jorgeI
It sure would save me a lot of time. Matter of fact, was loading some 308 with 46.5gr Varget and could not get consistency of +/- .5 . if you are saying that's ok, I'll give it a shot


What measure are you using? Does it have a baffle in the powder column?

That's more variation than I get with Varget.

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Volume loading powder verses weighed loading powder thats been a argument for handloaders for years. ammo factories always volume load. most 100-200 yard bench shooters volume load and they shoot some very nice 1 hole groups. FTR shooters do both but my friend who shoots alot of 600 yard competition and is 71 years old and always does well volume loading. i was taught by a ballistic engineer at a ammo factory: powder can not be weighed accurate and volume loading is more accurate. my testing with a a Remington 40 x target rifle volume was more accurate at 100 yards also. to this day i wonder why someone has not really gave me or anyone else a better answer, so i just volume load, i still wonder what is the best way > volume or weighed powder ? maybe Mule Deer has the better answer to powder consistency? i use all Redding benchrest equipment i am very consistent with my Lapua Brass.

Last edited by pete53; 10/03/19.

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Originally Posted by 9point3
Belding & Mull Visible Powder Measure


I'm a bit surprised that no one else mentioned the flat consistency of that old design. Since switching to a Harrell's from my old tried and true B&M I honestly don't know why I did. I keep the B&M handy though for measuring .45 pistol charges of Bullseye and that's about it. I insist on using the Harrell's not because it's better for my rifle reloading but because it's shiny and pretty, and cost a lot. grin

I too used to worship at the altar of micro-precise weighing of each charge, and then saw the light and quit wasting my time.

Switching to premo loading dies and paying attention to case neck variables paid more dividends when shooting my "ego massaging" rifles. Once again, Mule Deer is right, the rat.


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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by jorgeI
It sure would save me a lot of time. Matter of fact, was loading some 308 with 46.5gr Varget and could not get consistency of +/- .5 . if you are saying that's ok, I'll give it a shot


What measure are you using? Does it have a baffle in the powder column?

That's more variation than I get with Varget.

Hornady and yes I have the baffle installed, but it happens with just about all stick powders especially the slower ones.


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I haven't worked with a Hornady measure, but I do recall reading some comments here about not getting the most consistent charges with them.

I mostly use a Redding BR-30. I use a slow, high torque throwing motion. If grains act like they want to get cut then they get cut, they do not hang up the measure. I don't do any of that tapping at either end of the stroke.

When I load a long stick powder like 4064 or 3031 I don't even weigh individual charges. I throw 10 together, weigh the aggregate, slide the decimal point over one place and that average weight is what I name the charge. The targets tell me whether or not variation is acceptable.

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Varying charge weights will mess with the Extreme Spread (other factors will do this as well). An Optimum Charge Weight load is more forgiving for small variances in case volume, neck tension, and inconsistent COL etc.

This requires the correct powder for the components used.

A 308 Win as well as others (considered an inherently accurate cartridge) exhibits this.

OCW load will give the best chance of small groups. However, if the load is not on a vibration node groups will not be as small as they could be, excluding other mechanical factors. So you need an OCW/Optimum Barrel Time load.

Back to the measure, I use a Lee dipper dumped into a pan on the FX 120i digital scale and trickle up, variance is 0.00gn/0.02gn.

This is a slow way to do it, but gives very good results for range work and competition. I also use this method for hunting rounds.

At the minimum many 1/2 moa groups (at least 5 shots) at 100 yards will more or less prove that your rifle/scope mechanics are good. At distance your scope must hold zero and track reliably.

To prove a good load for hunting or competition push the distance out to 300+ yards, once you get good 5 shot groups move to 10 shot groups. This will show you a load that will stand up at distance.

The Extreme line of powders are quite good but it is the air temperature that messes with POA/POI from day to day.

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Originally Posted by Axtell

At the minimum many 1/2 moa groups (at least 5 shots) at 100 yards will more or less prove that your rifle/scope mechanics are good.


I respectfully submit no matter how good the ammunition, scope and shooter, the heavy majority of big game rifles for which handloads are being assembled are not capable of repeatedly/reliably producing 1/2 moa five shot groups.

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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by Axtell

At the minimum many 1/2 moa groups (at least 5 shots) at 100 yards will more or less prove that your rifle/scope mechanics are good.


I respectfully submit no matter how good the ammunition, scope and shooter, the heavy majority of big game rifles for which handloads are being assembled are not capable of repeatedly/reliably producing 1/2 moa five shot groups.



The shooter and the environment are tough to control variables.

I look at OCW,OBT and ES, and rifle/scope mechanics . If these markers are good then the problem lies with the shooter and his/her interpretation of the environment .

Chasing ones tail is counter productive.

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