24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,416
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,416
Working on getting brass made for mine. 4-digit '1st model'. Using 270 brass and about 1 out of 10 crushes the shoulder. Question to Roundball and oldgunsmith(John) and any others - do you neck down the case then trim then size? What order do you do each?


Support your local Friends of NRA - supporting Youth Shooting Sports for more than 20 years.

Neither guns nor Liberals have a brain.

Whatever you do, Pay it Forward. - Kids are the future of the hunting and shooting world.
BP-B2

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,867
U
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
U
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,867
When I had mine I annealed first, then necked down and trimmed last.
For a long time just used a full length die. Finally got a RCBS form & trim die.
Made it go a lot faster.
Used a lot of IMR4831 & 140 gr. bullets
Should have kept it!!!


"The more I am around people the better I like my dog." Mark Twain
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 126
J
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
J
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 126
Alright. I’ll be the idiot. Why is it not .264 Newton?

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,416
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,416
.264 is measured in the depth of the groove. .256 is measured from land to land. In the original Newton rifles, they used a Metford form of rifling where the 'grooves' were rounded somewhat. Here's an article by Charles Newton from 1917 and published in the American Rifleman describing the rifling they used.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Vault/Newton-Pope_Rifling_Oval_Bore.html

Last edited by Bbear; 07/27/18.

Support your local Friends of NRA - supporting Youth Shooting Sports for more than 20 years.

Neither guns nor Liberals have a brain.

Whatever you do, Pay it Forward. - Kids are the future of the hunting and shooting world.
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 126
J
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
J
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 126
Originally Posted by Bbear
.264 is measured in the depth of the groove. .256 is measured from land to land. In the original Newton rifles, they used a Metford form of rifling where the 'grooves' were rounded somewhat. Here's an article by Charles Newton from 1917 and published in the American Rifleman describing the rifling they used.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Vault/Newton-Pope_Rifling_Oval_Bore.html



Interesting! Thanks for the info!

IC B2

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
R
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
R
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
256 Newton case forming-my experience. It's already been shared about how a forming and trim die will make it easier. Using a FL die will work. Take a look where your 270 shoulder is to see how much is moved to make a Newton case. Dents in the case had to do with Imperial wax collecting in the neck and shoulder portion of the die. It was necessary to keep the FL wiped out. This minimized dents. Slowing up pass in the press when forming cases may minimize the collapsed necks. If you have a wrinkle in the shoulder toss the case. Use good clean annealed brass for forming. I was using CH dies in a RC II press.

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,416
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,416
Thanks all for the info on forming. Had my co. truck catch fire and burn to the ground. Not before it caught the garage on fire though. Heat and smoke damage to the reloading area (primers are toast as they were on a higher shelf and suffered heat damage). My reloading of this fine old lady is on hold for a while. At least until after all the adjusters and such get through and I can start cataloging what's damaged.
Wondering if my stash of 270 brass was damaged? Eh, I'll toss it and pick up some new stuff.


Support your local Friends of NRA - supporting Youth Shooting Sports for more than 20 years.

Neither guns nor Liberals have a brain.

Whatever you do, Pay it Forward. - Kids are the future of the hunting and shooting world.
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 246
P
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
P
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 246
Originally Posted by Bbear
Thanks all for the info on forming. Had my co. truck catch fire and burn to the ground. Not before it caught the garage on fire though. Heat and smoke damage to the reloading area (primers are toast as they were on a higher shelf and suffered heat damage). My reloading of this fine old lady is on hold for a while. At least until after all the adjusters and such get through and I can start cataloging what's damaged.
Wondering if my stash of 270 brass was damaged? Eh, I'll toss it and pick up some new stuff.

Sorry to here about your fire and hope the insurance co doesn't wack you.

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,065
T
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
T
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,065
Good snag!

A cool old gun and very interesting cartridge. Newton accomplished some stuff...


Defend the Constitution
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 14,070
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 14,070
I thought it was a cartridge design by Cam Newton! smile


Well we're Green and we're Gold, and we play better when it's cold. All us Cheese heads have our favorite superstar. We love Brett Favre.
IC B3

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,179
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,179
Originally Posted by Bbear
.264 is measured in the depth of the groove. .256 is measured from land to land. In the original Newton rifles, they used a Metford form of rifling where the 'grooves' were rounded somewhat. Here's an article by Charles Newton from 1917 and published in the American Rifleman describing the rifling they used.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Vault/Newton-Pope_Rifling_Oval_Bore.html


>>I have a real nice original 300 Newton so that must be the reason its called 300 Newton instead of 308 ?


LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,124
G
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
G
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,124
That would be a "30 Newton". GD

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
R
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
R
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
Sorry, I have not been here for awhile. I had a vintage set of 256 Newton RCBS dies and a set of modern C&H dies. Based on experience making this case there are two problems. First obstacle was have to trim the case. I used a borrowed RCBS power trimmer. A trim die would have worked better. At a hundred bucks the RCBS looked less attractive. These cases were made from RP 270 brass.

Shoulder collapse: The cases were lubed with Imperial Sizing Die Wax. The lube is usually well behaved. This time the lube oozed out of the vent hole. The lube situation aggravated and neck and shoulder problem. I did called C&H speaking to the owner. The answer was to lube the case half the way up. This solution worked at the expense of some stuck cases.

Another irritation was the cases appeared oversized from my chamber. The barrel had to be set the barrel back and rechambered. This rechambering could have something to do with this large case business. As you can tell this undertaking was some what star crossed. RCBS no longer offers these dies. C&H can make custom dies but has a set up cost. Best talk to them for current cost. A no-brainer is to always resize the parent brass first. I have always preferred to neck down hence the 270 brass.

Loading data. You are on your own. Using data derived from 6,5x55 and 6.5-06 worked for me. My rifle can get into 6.5-06 territory so I back off on the charges. The cartridge works great in a 98 Mauser action. A new Leupold 3.5-10x40 scope has just been installed. Got the rifle roughed in yesterday. This project in moving in geological time.

Last edited by Roundball1; 09/29/19.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,124
G
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
G
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,124
The biggest problem I found with sizing cases in the C-H die was that the die is not vented. It was air which was trapped ahead of the shoulder which was causing the shoulder to dent; not lube. I cured this by drilling a vent hole in the sizing die. The 256 case is slightly more tapered than the 06. The shoulder diameter is greater on the 06 which is why the air got trapped. Another way to form the cases which worked out well was to first set the shoulder back with an 8x57 die. This reduced the shoulder diameter as well and eliminated a lot of the trouble. By the way, I have always had better luck annealing after forming. Annealed brass is often too soft and more likely to collapse.
Loads from the Number One Speer manual are often very hot! One definitely wants to work up. 58 of 4831, behind a 140, is usually too hot in a 6.5/06 and I can't get near that in my Newton.

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
R
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
R
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
Thanks for the suggestion for using 8mm dies. I was not clear in my post about which set of dies was giving which problem. My understanding is that C-H dies will not be vented. The problem with the lube surfaced using the RCBS dies. In one instance there was a longitudinal dent below the shoulder with the C-H dies. The trapped air makes sense. The suggestion for using less lube did come from C-H.. In the end it was possible to form cases with minimum loss. What a real killer is that RCBS no longer makes custom dies as in the old days. Right on the 6.5-06 level of loads in the Newton. If one wants a 6.5-06 build one. Cases for the 6.5-06 are much easily formed. Thanks again for the suggestion on the 8mm dies. My rifle is a built up 98 Mauser action using a 1:8 Bartlein barrel. My current project gun is an original Newton rifle. Cases for that rifle are a snap as it is a 30-06.

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,124
G
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
G
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,124
One other thing I found when forming cases from 30/06; if I did it fast, I got fewer dents. Slam it into the die than yank it out right away. This in the C-H die. Except for the lack of a vent, I really like the C-H dies. I have them in 30 Newton as well and they are just fine.
My rifle is based on a slightly modified Winchester 54 (Mauser bolt stop, M70 bottom metal, new bolt handle) with a Benchmark barrel. I put it into an Echols Legend McMillan stock which is a nice enough stock but difficult for me to warm up to. I'll probably make a walnut stock later. I am quite a fan of Newton's cartridges; especially the 256 and the 30. GD

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,715
W
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,715
Cool!!!!


Molon Labe
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,313
D
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
D
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,313
I form my 256 Newton cases from WW270 cases. I first anneal them in my Giraud annealer and resize in full length RCBS dies. I lost two due to shoulder dents out of 100 using Pacific Hornady Unique case lube. As printed the Speer number one manual load data I posted above in this thread a year ago is way overboard. The best load I use is 48.4grains of H4831sc behind a 130 grain Sierra Game Changer. This load also works with 49.3 of IMR 7828ssc. I built this rifle on one of my spare Remington 1903A3 actions and a Krieger #3 CM barrel twisted at 8 and 26 inches long. I will use a coronagraph next time I'm at the range with this rifle, and report back.

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,512
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,512
IIRC, Wieland's article from a couple years back said he trimmed before sizing the .270 brass, about 1/16".


What fresh Hell is this?
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,512
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,512
Okay, this is from Handloader 295, April 2015. Wieland trimmed 1/16" off .270 brass with a Dremel saw chucked in a drill press, then trimmed to length to square off and chamfered before going through the sizer. May have to trim again after sizing.


What fresh Hell is this?
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
257 members (257 mag, 12344mag, 300jimmy, 01Foreman400, 2UP, 10Glocks, 25 invisible), 1,716 guests, and 902 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,592
Posts18,397,932
Members73,815
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.153s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.9008 MB (Peak: 1.0544 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 10:39:04 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS