Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Shot placement and cast bullets

Pretty much convinced that if you can shoot, there's almost no wrong choice for killing deer. Follow you notions.

Almost picked up some of the Nosler 220gr BTs designed for the Blackout, but a glance at the pile of stuff on (and under) my bench quenched that yen. The deer-killing que is long enough as it is.

If you're going for 1700-1900 fps, straight clip on wheel weights, air cooled, will do exactly what you need. If you make it too soft, the nose will blow off, and a large flat nose makes that worse; speaking from personal experience.

Large flat noses are great for pistol-velocity cast bullets, but they are not ideal at rifle velocity where smaller flat noses work better.

Powder coating has no effect on bullet expansion, have at it.

I cut my COWW with enough SOWW to get the antimony content down to about 1%, then added about 4% tin, and water-dropped them. They shoot accurately out of the 357 revolver at 357+P pressure, and as I said, I got them just above 2K fps out of the Whelen, but the more accurate load was 1900 and change. When I hunt with them in the Whelen, I will shoot them at the lower velocity.

Speed is not the first priority with flatnose cast bullets, because the work they do doesn't require bullet deformation. Veral Smilth discusses this in his book. So there are two basic camps that Campfire members have fallen into in this thread: shooting pretty soft bullets at speeds that allow them to mushroom handily without fracturing, and shooting fairly hard bullets at speeds that won't cause them to fracture on impact, thus allowing the bullet meplat to do its job. I've done a lot of testing, usually in some combination of water jugs and OSB, and I've found the latter camp is easier to get to shoot well. But I don't have any experience with paper patching. I've also found that in-between the two camps is a third arena, where bullets are shot fast enough that the nose WILL fragment a bit, and then the rest of the bullet, basically a cylinder with a riveted nose, continues to go on through. Just like a Nosler Partition. I've only tested this on a couple deer, but so far, it seems to work just as I thought it would. I've not recovered bullets from animals, but I have recovered lead fragments through the wound channel. I saw no problems with this performance, and I intentionally did not aim at shoulders. Just another tool in the tool kit.

As well, I won't harden bullets by adding much antimony to alloys beyond a couple percent, because antimony has a tendency to make bullets more brittle. I rely on grain refiners like copper, sulphur, or arsenic to add hardness, and I water-drop nearly all of my bullets, for convenience' sake.. Tin adds a small amount of hardness, but can also add ductility to alloys that want to be brittle.

I don't know if you've ever heard of Glen Fryxell, but he has done lots of fine writing on cast bullets, casting, hunting with cast bullets. Much of his writing, or maybe all of it, is on www.lasc.us, including his book and dozens of articles he has written. I learned quite a bit from his writings.

Oh my, I kneel before that throne too....







Pure lead, ~1,600 fps, 300 grains and impact at about 80 yards. Retained weight ~285 grains after breaking both forelegs, 5 ribs and slicing the top off the heart.


Another deer bites the dust...

This thread provides ample proof that jacketed bullets are just a passing fad. This is a representative target of the 173 gr. Lyman 31141, GC with 33.0 grains of 3031, shot from a 30-303. That's a 303 British with a 308 barrel. It mopes along at a little less than 2000 fps. It's my LR cast deer getter that reaches out to 150 yd.

Have one of those 31141 moulds and they shoot about the same from my .30-30s. Good bullet. Mine cast a bit heavier, in part I suspect because I'm using a wee bit softer alloy, BHN around 11-12. 185 gr after lube. Velocity I was getting in the 2100 fps range.

I like that bullet in my 30-30 too. In fact, that's why I loaded some up for the 30-303. I have a few hundred sitting around that I cast last year, I think. They're getting blue molded.

Going to do a wide meplat test this year using the 310 gr. LEE WFN from my 444 Marlin. Planning on using 50/50 pure lead and wheelweights pushed to 1600-1700 FPS. I just bet it works on both hogs and deer just fine.

Shot a hog some years back with the .44 load pictured above, little piggy weighing around 150#. Hit him on the point of the right shoulder and retrieved the bullet under the hide on the offside ham. Shattered the shoulder blade, ribs, spine and hip along the way. Near about turned the little squealer inside out. Pure lead wrapped in paper and modest velocity....DRT.

I have taken a pretty fair number of deer with pure lead round balls and Mini balls in various muzzle loaders and am still impressed with their ability to penetrate, especially the round balls in 50 or 54 caliber.

Cast bullets dont have a jacket to help regulate expansion. Like jacketed bullets, the shape of the nose and velocity also play a role in the expansion. Flats expand easier than spitzers.

Velocity plays another role. Fat meplats and larger calibers expand at lower velocity than the opposite. Hollow points of a decent starting cavitation increase expansion again.

The next is alloy composition and Brinell hardness. As speed goes up, softer alloys expand more. Ductile alloys of lead and tin squish, alloys with progressively more antimony powder and high antimony break off into chunks.

Hard alloys in lead drilling through deer sized critters ALWAYS is not true. Drive the right caliber to the right impact speed with the right nose and they will work. The trick is knowing where that threshold is, on both ends with the caliber, nose shape and alloy composition and hardness you are using.
Yes, a 30 caliber 22 BHN bullet might not even nick on a shoulder hit deer at 1800 fps.. At 2500 and change impact, it's probably going to replicate the damage of a jacketed bullet, probably a bit more.

The best rifle application is making a softnosed slug. I've shot critters with 28 BHN shanks and 1-20 soft noses (like a Partition or H Mantel) with literally a beer can diameter wound all the way through critters. At 2,500 fps impact no less. Yes, the load chronographed about 2550 and I doubt at 35 yards the bullet slowed down much.
The nose starts expansion and also cushions the rear shank at high impact velocity.
I just made some Linotype 22 Hornets at around the 2,900 fps mark. Inside 100 yards the small flat and high antimony alloy turns plastic bottles into twisted gore.
Perfect.

They really arent much different than jacketed bullets, other than you have to create the parameters of the bullet, instead of just loading a manufactured known quantity and making the bullet work for you, then replicating it. Ww metal/tin at around 2,000 fps in most deer cartridges is pretty well known for working at normal hunting ranges. It's just one recipe.
I suppose if one makes beer, bread or spaghetti sauce the notion is understandable.

Thirty or so years ago, the editor of "The Fouling Shot" (Cast Bullet Association magazine) mentioned that the softest bullet that fits and does not lead at the desired velocity will generally be the most accurate. While I think he was referring only to accuracy in his editorial, a soft bullet is likely also best for most hunting.

Don't have much use for hard bullets.

When people who do not cast their own, ask about busnesses up here that sell hard cast bullets, I give them the names of two guys who will make what they need. I explain that hard bullets are usually not what you want. Then, I recommend Lyman No 2 or softer and provide them with some Lyman loads.

For hunters who want to start casting their own, I tell them to buy a Lyman Cast Bullet book, have a read, and keep it simple. Besides Lyman No. 2 alloy, I recommend two or three popular molds from which to choose, to learn on. I invite them over if schedules permit.

Work through the learning curve. Shoot, and be happy.

Air cooled clip on ww alloy, no tin or pure lead. This 9mm bullet starts with a .260" meplat, rivets out to .310" at 1400 fps, and expanded to .600" at 1700 fps. At 2000 fps it comes apart and a harder alloy is needed. No hollow point or soft alloys are necessary at the higher speeds with a large flat nose.

In my experience this is the same performance I get with a WFN 44 or 45 bullet from straight WW alloy. If mixing with 50/50 pure lead the bullet noses blow off at 1700 fps from too much expansion.

Here's the Saeco #352 245gr bullet, also air cooled ww, 2100 fps from a 35 Remington. Starts with a .180" meplat, which is plenty for this velocity range and alloy, maybe a little too much. The expanded bullet was recovered from wet paper, the damaged bullet from dry paper.

Guys, be cautious of too much expansion with the wrong combination of soft alloys, large flat points, and higher velocity.

Sharps rifles, heavy for caliber hard cast bullets in 1886 50-110, 45-70 and 40-65 along with heavy 44 mag, 45 Colt and 454C, pick your path to the vitals 'regardless' of the angle presented, I like double shoulders when I can get them.

Reading this thread attentively.

I am in the process of preparing for rifle season for whitetail next week. One of my goals this year is to take a deer (probably a doe) with my uncle's Colt SAA 45 LC, 1907 vintage. I posted a couple of years earlier about inheriting, really rescuing, this pistol. She obviously has some age on her but she's still accurate and a pleasure to shoot. My preferred load is the cast 250 grain Keith SWC atop 6.0-6.5 grains of Red Dot for around 800-825 fps. I'd keep my shots inside my already self imposed maximum range for my Black Widow recurve bow....twenty yards. I have been contemplating a shoulder shot vs a lung shot and honestly have not arrived at an answer yet for this situation.

Love that wide meplat on that bullet....want to see what she does.

Opinions?

That's a good application for a really soft alloy. Even with a shoulder shot, I'd go no harder than a 50/50 WW/pure lead alloy, and maybe just use pure lead with a bit of tin. I don't see much need or advantage in going with anything harder.

IMO I think you could safely use a lung or shoulder shot with that scenario, whatever presents itself best when the time comes.

Thanks for the input.