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Beaver10: Be careful with this topic.
I will say this after Hunting Montana every year (for both Big Game and Varmints!) since the late 1960's the Wolves (and other predators like Cougars, Coyotes, Black bear and Grizzled Bears!) have "affected" the Big Game herds immensely in the last 16 - 18 years.
The "predators" have changed the habits and haunts of Elk SEVERELY - don't let anyone tell you they haven't!
The Elk though are smart and they have of recent taken up residence, for much of each year, on private ranches - I surmise this affords the Elk SOME protection from the marauding transplanted Canadian Wolves and other predators!
Sadly the Bighorn Sheep, Mule Deer and Moose populations were/are unable to attain this protection.
Our Moose here in SW Montana have been absolutely decimated!
I Hunted a particular mountain ranges foothills for well over 20 years and would see 150 to 400 Mule Deer in a late season day - introduce more predators and the same mountain ranges foothills are now "special draw tags" and its rare to see even 10 Mule Deer in these same traditional haunts!
Sad.
There are simply WAY to many predators in Montana - PERIOD!
And I could give a Grizzly crap less what any outdoor writer or "game department official" burps up about this issue.
Yeah there are lots of Elk still in some areas but they have taken refuge for the most part on private (non-Huntable!) land in western Montana!
As long as the fish, wildlife and parks liberals are protecting predators I don't see this situation improving for the traditional public lands Hunters.
Another example for your consideration - I also Hunt Elk during the rut in SW and western Montana - and have done so for MANY decades.
I had a secret area in Montana (that Dwight Shue and Larry Jones also Hunted on occasion!) for years I would see 2 to 10 mature Bulls A DAY during the height of the rut - the transplanted Wolves became so abundant (active) in this area that the Elk literally disappeared from it!
Last time I Hunted there for 8 straight days I never saw an ELK! Not one, not a cow not a calf not a spike bull!
Since then I have traveled there numerous times to double check my unbelievable new reality - still haven't seen a Bull there!
BUT... lots of Wolf sign.
We (as Hunters!) worked long and paid hard and dearly to rebuild our Moose, Bighorn Sheep and Elk herds only to have their numbers dramatically affected and Hunting opportunities diminished by transplanted Canadian Wolves.
I say this to the liberal feds and the liberal game department administrators who brought us even MORE predators from Canada - "thanks for nothing and doublephuck YOU"!
Hold into the wind
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Shortly after re-introduction, when a thread such as this was started they would call us bar stool experts, kooks, lazy bad hunters etc.....

Now we have the advantage of hindsight and other states are experiencing wolves... with the same results, VG you are absolutely correct and never trust people with agenda's, they make a living off of this stuff.

Grizzly bears have had a small army of government biologist, experts etc... making a good living off the issue... wolves no different


Originally Posted by Judman
PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha

Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Hastings,

That part of Lewis and Clark's journey was along a major Indian route over the Rockies. There were few game animals not because of wolves, but because of Indians, who constantly traveled the route during late spring, summer and early fall. They not only hunted along the route, but the horses they rode (and used to pack their gear and game), grazed the hell out of it. I've read various versions of the L&C journals several times, and cannot remember them seeing many (if any) wolves in that area.

Meanwhile, they had no difficulty living off wild game when they journeyed up and down the Missouri River through the plains--where they saw plenty of wolves near the very abundant bison herds. Along with buffalo, they also saw and ate plenty of deer and elk. However, some of today's anthropologists and historians suspect the abundant plains game was partially due to recent epidemics that killed off thousands of the major predators of the plains, the members of various tribes.

Thanks, I've never actually read any L&C journals. But I wonder if the Indian population along the trail over the Rockies hadn't also been decimated by epidemics thereby reducing their impact on the game. And from what I can tell at Yellowstone it seems bison are not much affected by wolves, I'm guessing they put up too much of a fight, but the elk population seems to have been worked over. And even though the journals didn't mention wolves much if any don't you think there were as many there as the habitat could support. And also didn't the deer and elk population show up in pretty substantial numbers between the demise of the wolves (and Indians) and the reintroduction of the wolves. Of course I imagine game management policies of the 1900s helped a bunch. Having never hunted up there I am just asking because I don't know. We do travel and sight see a good bit in Montana and Idaho but I never wanted to have to deal with hauling a bunch of fresh meat back to Louisiana.


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Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Bears get in the neighborhood of 40% of the fawns in multiple studies.

Always interesting to see what happens to critter populations when someone really lays into wolves on a particular island. Night and day really. Get even 5 or 6 wolves on an island and deer populations plummet. We have the luxury of watching it happen. Those year that we had a tiny wolf quota killed us.

Originally Posted by AKduck
They certainly don’t help. Though locally I put more damage on the deer population to black bears. Bears are crafty at catching those fresh dropped fawns.

Oh and the road guys shooting does and then wondering why they don’t see deer on the roads anymore.

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Thanks Calvin that was an interesting read.... the conclusion wolves and deer cannot both survive on an island.....
In the lower 48 we aren't on an island and when the wolves wipe out a local population they are free to move on... and they do.
Then the destruction starts all over ..... and around it goes.
Before freeways and subdivisions etc..... the animals had a chance to flee. The brilliant biologist failed to foresee this unintended consequence....


Originally Posted by Judman
PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha

Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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In my state we have spent millions of taxpayer dollars on the " Red Wolf" which is factually a Wolf / Coyote hybrid, however the feds and local goonies say it is an endangered species. Hail, we have a 5000 sq foot modern brick building called the SeeWee Red Wolf Exhibit where touristas can come look at them , provide charity blah blah.

Further in the last 15 years the coyote has made it to the same coastal forests where this so called wolf was released. Now we have yotes that touch 45 lbs and have coats like NGs.

Our deer and turkey population started a very evident down trend about one year after the yote gained its foot hold and then dropped to an all time low in the last five years and is still suffering. USFS, USFW and SCNDR biologist call this reaching a balance. F that balance. Where will conservation be when there are no hunters because there is no game?

Fed and state agencies response : Nah can't be the yotes fault, you need to learn to live with them.

A buddy of mine out west looses stock weekly. He says this is his only resort during calving season, dip a chicken thigh hang on a low hanging branch or carve a point on low hanging limb and push thigh onto limb about 4' off the ground. Keeps his personal dogs locked up for several weeks after. Freaking sad when it comes to that for sure.

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In my humble opinion, the introduction of the Canadian Timberwolf in 95 was the worst example of "those that make the rules don't have to live under them" I have ever seen. The Elk and Deer populations hadn't seen a wolf in close to a century. Then, a 100 pound appetite with feet shows up and discovers a smorgasboard that doesn't run away soon enough.


The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. --H. L. Mencken

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Ok, let’s look at why our forefathers found it necessary to annihilate the wolves? Without bleeding into bison killing for army consumption and profiteering off the skins as a way to sidetrack this conversation. Or, wholisticly discussing market hunting that hurt game animals of fur and feather before hunting seasons and regulations were put in place.

What were the wolves doing that caused them to become public enemy #1...Dare say the same thing they’re doing currently?

Personally, I’m a believer that man screws shît up consistently with both good intentions and with deceptive means designed to appease people and organizations where money is contributed.

I worked with the “Free Willy foundation” on a cabling infrastructure construction project...I happened to meet a couple of the fishes biologists who worked the tank with Willy...They both said this fish is dead once it would be released because the “Non-Profit” organizers were raking in millions in donations, paying out huge salaries to the top runners of the Free Willy organization and there was no way the fish could not be released.

Both biologist said the campaign should have been Save Willy and keep him in captivity...The fish was found dead shortly after being released...Hey, but some made a lot of money collecting donations. 😎


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Can't help but notice BuzzH hasn't shown up......
In other threads he loves to brag on how much money he makes......


Originally Posted by Judman
PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha

Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Originally Posted by Beaver10
Originally Posted by irfubar
Damn flatlanders..... smile

Sycamore wouldn't know a Roosevelt from a Holstein..... wink


Or a mountain from a mole hill....LMAO 😎


I don't know about that, ladies.

My front porch is at 7000 feet, which kind of makes you girls the flatlanders.

I do yard work at higher elevation than you hunt!

Kind of a double-whammy on fubes, being a born and bred prune-picker on top of that.


Originally Posted by jorgeI
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
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Around here, the impacts I see are from increased population of humans, hunting in groups (2-3 permits, 10 people in camp, and UTVs up and down every road.

Long term drought is not helping wildlife or cows either.

this year was a long, wet winter, one of the best in years, followed by one of the driest summers ever. Cool season grasses rebounded, warm season grasses almost disappeared.

Good hunters are still finding the animals.


Originally Posted by jorgeI
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
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Syc,
Weather has and always will play a role in animal movement during hunting hours. Changing up tactics to improve odds of success can be done over a quick strategy meeting amongst the crew knowing there’s animals available requiring only a change of hunting techniques...

Our crew just had to do this finding uncommonly warm, dry weather for a 2nd year in a row. We should have had 2 bulls down in 4 days of hunting instead of only one. It was a mistake a pard made. The key is animals in the area to hunt.

I wouldn’t say someone is a poor hunter, if the hunting grounds they’ve spent much of their life scouting and hunting becomes a barren landscape for furred animals after an increase of wolf presence in the area...Further, you take an area that had historically held an abundance of game and now doesn’t. How do you expect a hunter to change tactics on non-existent animals, or move to another hunting ground, especially when hunting a boundary unit that prevents you from pulling stakes and moving 30-40 miles into a new area?

You can’t...You’re stuck hunting the unit. Over the years I’ve had to make several changes in hunting tactics, mostly to follow the animals, but also to get away from the increase in hunting pressure from individuals who lack area knowledge and screw up a well planned hunt for myself and crew....

But this conversation is about the impact of wolves, and to a degree the added pairs of teeth they bring to some areas already holding predators that enjoy dining on ungulates. They certainly don’t make it any easier, and without living within or nearby the hunting grounds you plan to hunt. It can be very disappointing to arrive days before the opener only to discover wolf tracks and no game.

Lastly, living at 7k elevation would be difficult for me to hunt being I spend most of my life at sea level. Congratulations to you running your weed eater without getting winded. I would hire my yard work out, so I could concentrate on working a heavy pack running up and down your mountains to be ready to hunt...😎


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My couch is just out of camera shot...... at sea level... smile



[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Originally Posted by Judman
PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha

Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Sycamores turn........


Originally Posted by Judman
PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha

Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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IMO most of Montanas problem in certain areas is related to the elk management plan and the fact they give out to many tags of all types. In addition 6 months of war on elk is too much.

Last edited by BWalker; 11/16/19.
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Originally Posted by irfubar
My couch is just out of camera shot...... at sea level... smile



[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Shît Brother, I’m out of breath just looking at you there...😎


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A confession brother Beav... a sturdy horse hauled my fat azz up there..... we climbed mtns like that everyday then walked the horses down... I sweated going downhill... damn


Originally Posted by Judman
PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha

Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Originally Posted by irfubar
Sycamores turn........


sea level couch? I thought you lived in Montana? Are you at the bottom of the Kelley Mine in Butte?

Or did you move ?


Originally Posted by jorgeI
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
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Originally Posted by irfubar
A confession brother Beav... a sturdy horse hauled my fat azz up there..... we climbed mtns like that everyday then walked the horses down... I sweated going downhill... damn


+10 points for honesty and +5 for the laugh!


Originally Posted by jorgeI
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
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