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I was shooting my 45-70 Marlin Cowboy this afternoon. Brought out some old reloads with Vv n133 and 400 gr cast bullets. I was amazed at the corrosion on some of the cases. I shot one just to see what it would do, got a hollow sound, indicating the powder had deteriorated. Wonder how much powder deterioration is in the rounds not showing corrosion. BTW, climate controlled storage.

I remember reading somewhere about Vv powder doing this, can't remember where. These load are probably 15 yrs old, but I'm guessing. W/W brass.

Any info would be appreciated. I like Vv powder, haven't seen such as this with other powders.

DF

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That's ugly!

Have you pulled a bullet or few to see what the inside of an unfired case looks like? I have found significant green corrosion from lubes, some worse than others. Just a thought.

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Inside a fired case, doesn't look that bad. Will pull one and check powder.

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I have been loading V V N133 since the late 90's in 223. I've never seen anything like the photos.

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DF,

And where do to you live?


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Not an easy photo for an iPhone...

You can see a ring of corrosion at the base of the bullet.

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DF, I don't think the powder is responsible for the corrosion. The area looks like it was resting against something that held moisture. Leather perhaps? Or stored in an area that gets damp.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
DF,

And where do to you live?

I know, I know, humid, hot climate.

But, my shop has central air and heat. These loads have spent their entire lives in a controlled climate atmosphere, not swealtering away under a hot Louisiana sun... blush

Pampered but still corroding away. Actually the powder looks and smells pretty good, just affected where you see the corrosion.

But, you know I'd have to light one off. It sounded different, not the full, deep throated 45-70 sound you'd expect.

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Originally Posted by Steve Redgwell
DF, I don't thibk the powdwr is responsible for the corrosion. The area looks like it was resting against something that held moisture. Leather perhaps? Or stored in an area that gets damp.

Stored in a plastic ctg box, nothing damp.

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Happened to me with Vit 133 in .222 and .223 cases. Also had a 2# bottle go bad, it had been opened, used and put away, when opened several years later, brown cloud came out. Opened another that had been opened several years prior it seemed ok, loaded some .222 and got squibs and alot of un-burned powder. Emailed them, guy calls me the next day we discussed it in length on the phone, short of it he/they had never heard of the powder corroding cases or going bad, insinuated improper storage. All my powder and primers are stored in the heated and cooled gun room, powder in over head cabinet and primers in a file cabinet on the other end of the room.

I have several other open Vit powders that are 10-12 years old that are just fine.

Have not had a problem with any other powders and most of my powders are 5-30 years old.

jme

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Last edited by arky65; 11/17/19.

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Judging by the location of the corrosion, my guess would be a reaction between the lube and the brass. The powder looks good, does it smell new/fresh.?


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arky, could you clarify on that first 2# bottle? Had it ever been opened before, or was that the first time to break the seal when the brown cloud came out?

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IIRC, the bullets are 405 gr. Speer Idaho Territory swaged with dry lube. Maybe the coating reacts with the powder. But only a few are affected. Most of the box looks OK. The ones without corrosion shot pretty well.

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Yes, the 2# bottle in question had been opened years before.
I edited the post to answer Gringo's question. My brain and fingers are not always on the same wavelength.


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Thank you sir.

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I had seen somewhere on the Internet where some bullets coating would react with powder - I forget the details.

I've had powder go off due to poor storage conditions - exposed to a hot wall repeatedly over many years, but it typically corroded through the case at the mouth and/or the primer - something turned to liquid and went looking for places to seep out of. Your's looks to be corroding at the base of the projectile where powder meets coating.

Last edited by mauserand9mm; 11/17/19.

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
I had seen somewhere on the Internet where some bullets coating would react with powder - I forget the details.

I've had powder go off due to poor storage conditions - exposed to a hot wall repeatedly over many years, but it typically corroded through the case at the mouth and/or the primer. Your's looks to be corroding at the base of the projectile where powder meets coating.



Yes, the possibilities include breakdown products from a deteriorating propellant (which typically include nitric acid) collecting there near the base of the bullet because of the direction the rounds face in storage, and attacking preferentially in the crevice.

It doesn't look like an external cause.

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Originally Posted by dan_oz
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
I had seen somewhere on the Internet where some bullets coating would react with powder - I forget the details.

I've had powder go off due to poor storage conditions - exposed to a hot wall repeatedly over many years, but it typically corroded through the case at the mouth and/or the primer. Your's looks to be corroding at the base of the projectile where powder meets coating.



Yes, the possibilities include breakdown products from a deteriorating propellant (which typically include nitric acid) collecting there near the base of the bullet because of the direction the rounds face in storage, and attacking preferentially in the crevice.

It doesn't look like an external cause.

That makes sense.

I'm not sure about the coating on those bullets. I don't see MidwayUSA still listing them, not sure Speer still makes them.

I didn't smell any acidic aroma, in fact the powder I pulled from a corroded case still smells like it should. There was none of that brown dust you see and smell when powder goes bad. For sure you can detect the nitric acid smell when that happens. This is different, just corrosion where you see it, the rest of the powder doesn't look affected.

The fired round that sounded less than full power probably had more powder deterioration than the one I pulled.

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I've had vintage powders go bad with brown acidic smelling dust and fumes like your second link. Just never had any do the corrosion trick like this.

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If it is a reaction between the bullet coating and the powder it may only affect the powder in direct contact. Might not be nitric acid given off - you'd think that would quickly ruin the rest of the powder at least.


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
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Since it only happened with some of the loads, I think that you can rule out the powder.

As well, if they were stored correctly, then that wasn't the problem either.

Based on where the corrosion is externally, you likely had something on your fingers when handling the cases. It looks like a liquid dripped onto the cases. There's no way of telling, but the spots get smaller, suggesting that whatever it was wore off as you touched successive cases or it stopped dripping.

Trace amounts of whatever you touched transferred themselves to the bullets when you were bullet seating later.

You have to stop eating Louisiana hot sauce when you're reloading! smile


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I did not have the corrosion on the brass as DF pictured Mine had a blue green ooze around the neck and/or primers, .Lost several hundred rounds.

I have several hundred .223 handloads in various other cases and various powders, loaded years ago with no issues. So, in my experience it is powder specific. See above post with links by Gringo.

While talking, with the Lapua rep on the phone couple years ago about this, he mentioned they were currently experimenting with different coating to address temperature sensitivity. I have never had a temp sensitivity issue with any of the four Vit powders i use, but I live in the South.


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That's too bad. I really like VV powders. Very clean burning.


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Originally Posted by Steve Redgwell
Since it only happened with some of the loads, I think that you can rule out the powder.

As well, if they were stored correctly, then that wasn't the problem either.

Based on where the corrosion is externally, you likely had something on your fingers when handling the cases. It looks like a liquid dripped onto the cases. There's no way of telling, but the spots get smaller, suggesting that whatever it was wore off as you touched successive cases or it stopped dripping.

Trace amounts of whatever you touched transferred themselves to the bullets when you were bullet seating later.

You have to stop eating Louisiana hot sauce when you're reloading! smile

Now, you gotta be careful talking trash about us Cajuns. You Canucks need to remember where Cajuns came from originally.... shocked

laugh

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Yeah, you're displaced easterners. smile


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Dirtfarmer;
Top of the morning to you sir, I trust other than the corroded cases that this finds you well.

While I'll have to look at my records sometime to verify just when this happened, I had a 8 lb container of what was sold to me as VV-N160 go bad on me.

To clarify that a tad, it was during a reloading supply shortage and we couldn't get anything through our regular sources up here. Perhaps it was just post 9/11?

Anyway an outfit in Ontario sold bulk powder - Steve Redgwell likely knows them too - it was Higginson Powders and I'd dealt with them lots.

The second order from them, the chap I talked to on the phone commented that, "You should shoot up that N160 pretty fast if you can" and didn't elaborate and I recall at the time thinking that was odd as I had and still have some WWII surplus H4831.

Anyway how I found out the powder was going off was that I couldn't chamber a round into my Ruger No 1 .300 Mag as I was following up on a good mulie buck I'd hit.... frown

While I finally got him - bullet stuck in barrel, then I pulled another bullet with my Leatherman Wave - shoved it into the chamber - all whilst dashing across the sagebrush trying to catch up with a wounded mulie....

When I got home to examine the rounds I saw that several cases had cracked at the shoulder and the powder inside was clumped up into a solid mass. The bullets had green corrosion on the bases and the cases were less green than your's but were very brittle. Some of the cases had broken off at the shoulder while sitting in the plastic 50 count caddy.

Since I'd used it on 3 different cartridges, I ended up pulling about 200 rounds of 6.5x55, .308 Norma and .300 Win Mag and tossing all the cases. The 6.5x55 cases hurt as I'd not been able to find any up here across the medicine line for a year or more.

Again in the recesses of my memory, I believe I corresponded with John Barnsess here and he was able to shed some light on the matter - but I'll have to look and see if I've deleted that or not - sorry.

Somewhere I've got couple cases and if I find them I'll take some photos and post them up.

Lastly the remaining powder in the 8lb canister was warm, not hot - but definitely warm and was clumping so the reaction was somewhat exothermic in nature. There used to be a link I had on my computer here on the dangers of deteriorating powder, but when I tried to find it now I see it's taken down, no doubt from a forum gone the way of the dodo bird.

Hopefully that was useful to you or someone out there this morning sir. All the best to you and yours and good luck on any remaining hunts.

Dwayne


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Thanks, Dwayne, for that info.

I, too, have some 60+ year old 4831 that smell good, shoots great.

I'm a long time Vv fan, really like their powder, don't like it doing like this. So, I guess we need to shoot it up, not try to save it...

What ya think, me blaming you guys for our Cajuns... blush

Want them back...?

grin

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Have you thought about contacting VV and asking what they have to say ?


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Originally Posted by Craigster
Have you thought about contacting VV and asking what they have to say ?

Good idea. Last time I thought about that, couldn't get a US number to call.

Anyone have a clue on calling them?

DF


Edited to add, I did finally find an email to Capstone tech services, no way to attach photos. We'll see what they say, will report.

Capstone owns Berger and is a Nammo Group division, which owns Lapua and Vihtavuori.


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Originally Posted by Craigster

I filled out one just like that.

Thanks for the heads up. I will report what they say.

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I've got two 2# canisters of yet to be opened VV N-120 from circa 2006 for my 444. This thread isn't boosting my confidence, lol. Damn those impulse buys.

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Have a little faith. As long as it was stored properly, you'll be fine


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I got an email from Capstone and was able to upload and send them a couple of pictures. We'll see what they say.

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Be interesting to hear what they have to say. Keep us posted.


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I just got this somewhat rambling response from Capstone. I never use ammonia cleaners and the same hands handled all rounds. Sealer, I'd say the coated, swagged lead bullet sorta seals the case from air, military ammo cans..?? At least they are going to send it to HQ for an eval. Not holding my breath...

Thanks for the pictures Robert. If the powder was ok it could be many things right down to your fingers (salt) . If the brass was cleaned using a liquid brass cleaner the ammonia in the clean can cause this also. However , powder does have moisture in it . This is retained in the cellulose that the chemicals that make up gun powder are attached to. If the bullets or the case neck does not have some kind of "sealer" (like military ammunition does) the powder can dry out. I do not know if this can cause corrosion like this so I will send your email to Vihta Vouri and LAPUA to get an answer there. I know that I have seen this issue in carttridges I have not stored in Military ammunition cans with a good seal on them. Will get back to you when I here from LAPUA and VIHTAVOURI.

We'll see what they say.

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Yea, right. So, cases loaded with Vit needs to be handled and stored different from cases loaded with all other powders.

I got the same sort of response; it is not our powder it's something you did.

I have been waiting 2+ years to hear back from them.


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Originally Posted by arky65
Yea, right. So, cases loaded with Vit needs to be handled and stored different from cases loaded with all other powders.

I got the same sort of response; it is not our powder it's something you did.

I have been waiting 2+ years to hear back from them.

Not encouraging.

But, I've handled all my loads and powder the same, only one doing this.

Circumstantial evidence, sure, but pretty strong circumstantial evidence, IMO.

I'm gonna give them time to respond, hopefully it won't be 2+ years.

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Same thing happened with a friends 45-70 loads but he was using lever revolution jacketed bullets and a Hodgedon or IMR powder, don't know which. I agree with one of the posters from the above links that it looks like Copper Sulfate and is probably due to moisture and possibly the slightly acidic finger prints from handling the cases and bullets. This is just speculation and it only happened with one batch. But we have our share of hot humid weather here too.

His powder seemed fine.


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You should be shooting more!

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Originally Posted by arky65
Yea, right. So, cases loaded with Vit needs to be handled and stored different from cases loaded with all other powders.

I got the same sort of response; it is not our powder it's something you did.

I have been waiting 2+ years to hear back from them.


Probably had your finger on the trigger. wink


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Teach you to not pick your nose when doing reloading. whistle grin

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Originally Posted by plainsman456
Teach you to not pick your nose when doing reloading. whistle grin

Awww heck.... blush

Now you tell me... cry

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Looks exactly like every picture that I've seen of cartridges that had decomposing powder in them. The decomposition products eat brass cases and bullet jackets.


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So, after reading this thread, I went home an looked at some .222 Rem I had loaded in Lapua cases with VV133. Sure enough, the cases were corroded at the case mouth. I took a pic, but not sure how to upload it.

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Originally Posted by BRISTECD
So, after reading this thread, I went home an looked at some .222 Rem I had loaded in Lapua cases with VV133. Sure enough, the cases were corroded at the case mouth. I took a pic, but not sure how to upload it.


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Originally Posted by BRISTECD
Not so easy from from an iPad. This is a work around. Can’t get the pic to post.

BRISTECD's pic of Vihtavuori corroded bullets:

[Linked Image]

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So how can I post pics like that from an iPad?

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I've never used an iPad. A quick search online says hold your finger on the image and select the copy option. Not sure if that copies the image or its location. Perhaps it will provide a menu of options you can select.

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http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=157820

The above link is a discussion about deteriorating powder.

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Originally Posted by Gregor
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=157820

The above link is a discussion about deteriorating powder.

Lots of good info in that link.

Thanks.

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The latest from Vv/Lapua. Bullets are swaged and coated, no raw lead or typical cast bullet lube exposure to the powder. We live in a humid area, but central heat and air pulls a lot of moisture out of the room. Not real humid inside with the unit running 24-7. I guess the first response is from a HQ person named "Janne", the second response from the USA Capstone rep.

Robert,
Here is the feedback It from both LAPUA and VIHTAVOURI contacts:
Hard to say reason, but I think that this could be result of corrosion process started inside case due to some foreign material (moisture or something similar). Is it so that during loading process some foreign material have got inside case. I think powder alone will not do that. .45-70 case have such thin walls that corrosion eats through is quite fast.
And,
Sorry for my late answer; I think Janne could be right about the moisture issue.
The powder doesn’t change things that fast (six to eight years), yet I’ve seen a bunch of the “blueish/greyish” lead bullets, and sometimes even cases, kind of your pictures attached.
Humidity with impurities is probably the most common reason for this kind of results.
Since 2016, Vihtavuori has added some chemical agents to prevent case corrosion from happening. So this may have been caused by the humidity of the area you live in . Were these cartridge cases stored "bullet down" in the plastic cases?


Rounds were stored, bullet down in plastic cases. Not sure if they think that's good or bad...

Another point, if corrosion isn't a problem, why are they working to add "some chemical agents to prevent case corrosion from happening"...?

That's about as close to an acknowledgement as ya gonna get, IMO.

DF


Edited to add photo.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Dirtfarmer; 11/21/19.
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I agree. Sounds like....

Duck.... bob & weave.


Jerry


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Originally Posted by jwall
I agree. Sounds like....

Duck.... bob & weave.


Jerry

They sound like politicians.

DF

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If in 2016 they started adding chemical agents to prevent case corrosion, this powder was for sure pre-2016 vintage. Maybe the newer versions aren’t as bad.

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Gregor, thanks for the link. Has me, thinking/questioning about powder shelf life and powder storage.


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Amazing how some of the older ones, like vintage 4831, last so well, much newer Vv powders not so much.

60+ yr old H-4831 shooting well, 10 yr old Vv n-133 going bad. Must have to do with chemical composition. Maybe later Vv powders have been improved and are better. Let’s hope so.

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Amazing how some of the older ones, like vintage 4831, last so well, much newer Vv powders not so much.

60+ yr old H-4831 shooting well, 10 yr old Vv n-133 going bad. Must have to do with chemical composition. Maybe later Vv powders have been improved and are better. Let’s hope so.

DF


Yes it is.. I have at least 9 + lbs of Surplus 4831 --> NO problems. No brown residue. No acrid smell.
Velocity on PAR for 284 Win & 7mm R M.


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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
If in 2016 they started adding chemical agents to prevent case corrosion, this powder was for sure pre-2016 vintage. Maybe the newer versions aren’t as bad.

DF

If my powder turns out to be bad when I open it, or causes any problems down the road, I won't be rewarding VV with any more of my money. But that information may be of some comfort to anyone who has some VV powder made since 2016. I'll have my camera standing by whenever I finally get around to breaking the seal on one of my N-120 canisters. If it looks good, I won't load up batches larger than I think will get used in short order. Mine has been stored inside the house all this time so environmental conditions aren't an issue.

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I have to say that for you to absolutely know what happened to your cartridges, they would have to be examined.

I maintain that the powder wasn't to blame, or all of your cartridges would have corroded. I believe that a foreign substance caused the problem. The corrosion is more pronounced on the outside. My question: Were the cartridges in your initial picture completely corroded through? I am referring to the picture that you took of the outside of the cases.

I have N140, N150, N160, N540 and N550 here. All were made before 2016 and none has shown any deterioration either in their original containers, or as loaded ammunition.



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Steve Redgwell
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One fired case showed powder residue at the corrosion site. I’d say thru and thru corrosion.

The one with the most corrosion in the photo didn’t show powder residue, empty case looked pretty good on the inside.

After a half century of reloading, I’ve never seen this.

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To me, it looks like contamination. For example, sweat, bore cleaner or oil. Part of their response to you was that dampness contributes to corrosion (humidity with impurities). Brass is never completely clean. Traces of what is found in reloading rooms or gun rooms - Hoppes, gun oil, Coca Cola, salt, etc. - find their way onto metal surfaces. For example, you eat some potato chips, or have a bologna sandwich for lunch and don't wash your hands. Traces of your lunch deposit themselves on the brass and bullets. They react with moisture and the deterioration begins. To me, the majority of the corrosion appears on the outside of the cases, with far less on the inside, located at the heel of the seated bullet. This could have resulted from contamination from your fingers,transferred when you placed the bullet onto the case mouth and seating it. Or when the bullets were loose on the table, waiting to be seated.

Deterioration is accelerated by changing humidity in storage. Varying temperature is usually responsible as well. In your case, contamination would be my first check because you said that the temperature and humidity were constant. The reaction is slower in a controlled environment. That is, little variance in humidity or temperature.

If the propellant was the actual cause, then it's reasonable to expect that all the cartridges would shows signs of corrosion.

In the end, you would have to send it to a lab to determine the exact cause. At this stage, it's just a guessing game.


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Steve Redgwell
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I am telling you it's boogers.

It's snot what you think. grin whistle

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It could be!


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Steve Redgwell
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Originally Posted by plainsman456
I am telling you it's boogers.

It's snot what you think. grin whistle

Hmmm...

Guess I’m caught, red handed. Didn’t think anyone was watching.

Ha!

DF

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DIRT FARMER,
In my opinion Steve Redgwell has this issue nailed. I have also been in contact with BRISTECD via company email on this regarding his .223 loads. What you both have in common is that both of you live in areas of the country known for very high humidity and temps. Both of you have stored your ammunition in plastic cartridge cases . Because these cartridge cases are not sealed. Even though you both have AC there is enough moisture in the air to start the corrosion process. Both of you have also said that this ammunition has sat loaded for 5 to 6 years at least. My advice is that IF you are going to store ANY loaded ammunition for any amount of time where you live. That you use GI ammo cans with GOOD SEALS on them to help with this issue. I do . And I have not had any issues with ammunition corrosion issues like this. BUT I always check the cartridges occasionally to see if any issues are starting. Also I advise that you strip this ammunition that shows corrosion. Don't shoot it. No ammunition , even military ammunition the has both the bullet and the primer sealed can be stored indefinitely . M14 and FIRING LINE websites have a great string on the life of ammunition. The information from LAPUA and VIHTAVOURI I sent you also speaks to this I believe.

Take care,

Philip Hoham
Technical Support
Capstone Precision Group, LLC

24732 Randall Rd. | Sedalia, MO 65301
Tel: 660-460-2802
AS WITH ALL RELOADING, APPROACH THE MAXIMUM LOADS WITH CAUTION, AS ALL RIFLES AND RELOADING
TECHNIQUES WILL BE DIFFERENT. IF YOU CHANGE ANY OF YOUR COMPONENTS: THIS INCLUDES DIFFERENT POWDER LOT NUMBERS; YOU MUST REFIGURE YOUR LOADS BY STARTING WITH THE MINIMUM LOAD.

Last edited by gingerbear; 11/25/19.
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Philip,

Welcome to the Campfire.

You’re an important technical information resource and we appreciate your time and input.

Thanks,

DF

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Now you know not to pick your nose while reloading. smile


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
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Originally Posted by Steve Redgwell
Now you know not to pick your nose while reloading. smile

Old habits are hard to break...

You know, old dogs, new tricks, etc, etc.

Ha!

DF

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