Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Wolf Problems....How bad is it?

Thanks Tinman, do you use an E-caller or just howl. I am looking to update a very old Foxpro and want to get some new sounds including stuff for Lions and wolves. Do you have concerns w/ bears when calling before hard winter? I will probably spend some time in Salmon, Id. this winter and will have Mt. tags as well. Do you have any good info for a guy w/out a snowmachine? Yet, this may be the year I get one.


mike r

That's a solid observation. When the snow hits above the chest line of most Cervids they tend to yard up. Survival becomes a game of calories burned until it melts. Predation also becomes much easier. Leonard Larue did some pretty cool data calculating on the inherent risk to calorie reserves and snow mobiles.

I'm told they are delisted in Utah.............

I do have a foxpro, but stopped using it for wolf. It just doesn't give me confidence. I use either a mouth blown coyote howler, or better yet, I just howl real deeply with no call at all. That's what I have had the most success with.

I try to have someone sit a few hundred yards away from me where they can see well, preferably downwind. That's how we got a big male last year that I howled in.

As far as cats, I have incidentally called a few in over the years and found they seem to prefer bird distress calls. That's just my initial guess though as I don't have much experience with them.

For either dogs or cats, try to find the wintering herds of deer or elk. That's where the predators will be. A guy can normally hike close to them without a snow machine.

I have been making that statement every since 1995 when Hornocker pulled those first few sleepy Canadian wolves out of their cages and placed them in that Yellowstone corral and started tossing dead deer over the fence.

REMF strongly supported the wolf introduction scheme, along with every greenie in the nation. And every time I mentioned that the whole thing was just another ploy of the commies working to eliminate private gun ownership in the US, I was laughed out of the room.

But it is not so funny anymore.

Gee, let's look at some statistics, though no doubt some will say they're lies (usually attributed to Benjamin Disraeli):

From 2004-2018, the Montana elk "harvest" has varied from 20,154 (2013) to 30,924 (2017) . The number of elk hunters varied from 103,090 (2010) to 113,976 (2017). The average "harvest" has been 24,948. This does not indicate a wipe-out of elk.

Another interesting deal, whether you want to believe it or not: During that period more and more elk have shown up on valley-bottom ranches, usually in early fall, long before the winter snows that used to drive them down from the mountains. Around here at least 500 have shown up regularly on a big ranch in the middle of the valley for several years--where very little hunting is allowed.

Is this because of wolves driving them out of the mountains? Maybe--but there aren't many wolves in this valley. However, one study indicated elk prefer to stay on private land where little hunting by "us" is allowed, even if wolves show up. I have seen this myself since 2012, when I got lucky and was allowed to hunt a ranch an hour south of here in the eastern foothills of the Gallatin Range. The first morning, during the middle of the rifle season, I glassed a mile-long "park" holding three dozen branch-antlered bulls. A few hours later I killed one of three 6-points hanging around together on the edge of the park.

Yet, according to the rancher, a pack of wolves had been there for most of the year. We even ran into the pack when bringing my bull out, but did not get a good shot at them as they were running up a ridge 500+ yards away. Have since seen the same basic thing on a couple other ranches.

Why so the elk keep hanging out where wolves show up? Apparently because wolves are less dangerous than humans, who blast away at them at any range on public land. In fact, after I shot my bull, the other bulls and at least 100 cows and calves ran to the edge of the ranch, but stopped at the border of the public land. In three days, four of us killed 6x6 bulls on the place, because we hunted carefully and did not drive them off the place. Yet the wolves were still there. We either saw them or their fresh sign the entire time.

Yeah, a bunch of elk were killed by wolves in some parts of Montana when they first started showing up, either the wolves that drifted down from Canada, or those that drifted up from Yellowstone after the stupid reintroduction. But elk in many areas have become more wary of wolves--and and are still far more wary of human hunters than far less numerous wolves.

In general, the mule deer population is also pretty good in my area, and four moose have been road-killed near our little town in the past year--and yet a friend recently saw two BIG bulls not far from town.

Yes, wolves eat big game, sometimes a lot of big game. But they do not exist where they can't find something to eat. If they eat most of the game, then they disappear as well. Have seen this in ;places from Montana to northern Canada to Alaska, often when hunting the same areas years apart. One was the Mulchatna caribou herd in Alaska. Hunted the same basic area in 1996 and 2009. Saw MANY caribou in 1996, very few in 2009. Was this due totally to wolves, or the normal up-and-downs of caribou populations?

If there is plenty of big game to eat, there are plenty of wolves--which was mentioned over and over again in the journals of Lewis and Clark over two centuries ago.

I hunt elk pretty much every year in SW Montana and occasionally elsewhere in Montana. I have had the good fortune to hunt this area since the late 1970's. In recent years I have also noticed that much larger numbers of elk have been hiding out on private ranch land. I believe that is one of the biggest changes I've seen and it certainly has an impact on opportunities for elk. I've actually seen more moose than elk in the region so far this year, so they still do exist! The moose sightings have always varied from year to year. One season we saw 16 in three days, other seasons we may see one or none during the entire season. Wolves are now well established in the area and grizzlies are very well established. I've watched grizzlies chow down on elk calves so they too have an impact on the elk, as do cougars. The last couple years have been tough for elk (in my experience), this season I missed a chance at a nice bull cause I didn't react quick enough and saw quite a bit of sign, so thankfully the wolves haven't eaten "all of the elk". I hope to get out for a couple more chances this season. Weather has been odd, first week it got down to 15 below with snow and then second week it was in the 50's at times. You never know what the weather or elk are going to do from year to year.

The only effect I’ve seen of wolves on elk has been what Mule Deer alluded to. I’m seeing them in places where they haven’t historically been. On big ranches, or in the case around here way out into the desert. While hunting deer in the desert this year I glassed up a bull with nearly black antlers. Not a tree for 50 miles. I’m sure he dispersed there due to predator pressure. Be that wolf or man.

Interesting views .

T Inman thanks for the wolf hunting tips , a partner way downwind is a great setup .
When i retire i.m going to live amongst the mountain lions wolves and bears .

Yes, elk patterns have changed since the wolves have shown up. Alot.

Where I shoot whitetails, in central Idaho hay fields, the elk stay year round now. Before the wolf introduction, the elk would winter in the hay fields, and then move back higher into the back country, before calving season. When the hay started growing, in the spring, the elk were gone. They typically didn't show back up until well after the last cutting was put up.

The hay farmers started complaining about the year round elk, and depredation cow elk hunts were implemented.

Again, the elk lose. This time indirectly....because of the wolf.

Andy3

Same thing here. Ranchers complained about the elk eating hay and cow calf seasons were implemented; along with the subsidization of a whole bunch of elk fencing. Elk numbers are down by a lot. While this population reduction is mostly blamed on wolves, this is the first time I have seen this particular piece of logic absolving the ranchers and game dept. and transferring all responsibility to the wolves. GD

One of the things I've noticed over the past decade or so is that late-summer weather here in southwest Montana has become drier and hotter, resulting in longer, more intense fire seasons. In fact, the local record for the lowest rainfall throughout July was set a couple years ago--basically nothing at all.

When the hot, dry weather arrives , elk start showing up on valley-bottom ranches in the valley bottoms shortly thereafter--long before even the bow season starts on September 1st. This of course results in even more complaints from landowners, and last fall the local game wardens started escorting people on night shoots. I have friends who live in a foothill subdivision just above one of those ranches, who were naturally alarmed to hear rifle fire at 4 o'clock in the morning.. They called local law enforcement, whereupon they were informed about the "hunts."

Mike’s retired life...Make friends with the Injuns, not enemies....hint 😬😎

Well that depends if you get your information from a bar stool or in the woods.

By that logic elk would be introduced to every state in the country that doesnt currently have them save Florida, whichbis the only state that historicaly didnt have an elk population.

Arguing about what affect wolves have had vs if they hadn't been reintroduced is about like historians arguing how history would have been changed if Operation Valkarie had succeeded, or if Henry Tandey had killed Hitler in WWI.

It's all just a guess and both "sides" are cherry picking their "facts". There's so many other variables involved....fire regime, drought, increased hunter numbers, varying management objectives, invasive weeds, lowered bear and lion quotas...whatever else...not to mention the differences in how elk respond to predation in the various habitat types elk live in....which I suspect is one reason why the elk in the Selway have responded so differently to elk in the Wyoming Range.

I helped skin another one this evening...but I didn't shoot it.

It's been way more than three years since wolves were planted in Oregon. Read about or7 , a lone wolf leaves Wallowa county, crosses the state to Klamath county, then to find a mate in the Cascades . Where there were no wolves for decades! Today in the paper wolf fences are being built in Jackson county to stop predation on cattle! Three years my ass , they have been planting them for years! If not the state or feds, then by wolf lovers! Hunters have reported seeing them for 15 years.

Our Governor has mandated our game dept. to stop killing wolves that have been working the cattle herds over in Stevens county. But when a House of Representatives introduced a bill to transplant wolves to the San Juan Islands that was shot down for safety reasons. Of course these are the same people who want the Navel air station removed from Whidbey Island since it is interfering with their life style. The navel station has been there since the 40's and these people knew it before they bought their homes there.

Loads of interesting observations and opinions on this thread.

Thanks Mr Mule Deer for attempting to interject some sanity here. T also.

You fellas that live with them and hunt them and their prey have provided some valuable info too.

Lonnie, thanks for remembering the bad winter up there. A number of folks have mentioned finding bone piles and seemingly attributing them to wolf (bear and lion also) predation, but who's to say, without bringing in the CSI team to do forensics, that the bones aren't from a natural death that was scavenged by predators.
(include some lost wounded game there too ) .

I'm pretty sure the wolves have had an effect, how big is very debatable. Others have mentioned elk and deer being seen in ag fields more frequently. Escaping from wolf pressure? Escaping from more hunter pressure? Or just smarter animals over time knowing where the easy living is? Let's see, good groceries, water nearby, open space to see predators.............nah, I'd rather scratch out a living in the bush where the toothy things are after me.

I know a few folks in AZ that have been hunting elk in various units for 40+ years, mostly ranchland units, not the high mountains. They say numbers are down due to the ranch owners pressuring the game managers to issue more cow tags. Realize, a cow tag after the rut is likely reducing the herd by two animals the next year. Maybe 1.5 factoring in calf survival maybe. Do that a few years in row, or longer, and what happens to your herd numbers? No wolves in that part of AZ...yet, as Sycamore pointed out. Maybe those two fellas who's names he mentioned will chime in with what's going on with wolves in that E part of the state. Been nearly 20 years since I lived up there.

(sarcasm font on) I can't wait until the wolves get established in numbers here. Will be fun when we take the dogs on walks out the back yard on the BLM land.(sarcasm font off) There are low numbers here already, but no established packs right in our area that I've heard of...............yet.

Perhaps, as others have alluded to, the wolf/game animal ratio will vary on a cyclical basis as it's said rabbits and their predators do. We moved here 3 years ago and it was common to see numerous (5-10- even 15) jackrabbits and cottontails along the 15 mile drive back from town at night. Many nights this year I haven't seen a one. Without actually being able to survey the local coyote packs I have no proof, but from the nightly sounds the numbers in the 3 packs I commonly hear around the place are down this fall too.

One thing is sure, until there is a major regime change here in CA, we'll never be able to hunt them............and trapping for "fur" has been outlawed too.

Geno

PS, having met Sycamore in person, I can tell you he's not as bad a guy as some of you folks make him out to be.

here`s my take on Wolves here in Minnesota > in Minnesota we have had Wolves always in this state for over a 100 years or more in Minnesota we shot,trapped and poisoned wolves year around and we never ever got rid of Wolves. Wolves are much smarter than most people know ,no matter what science feels what has happened to Minnesota moose it was by Wolves. most people don`t even know what the favorite food is for Wolves in the winter here in Minnesota when its easy > its black bears that are hibernating ,Wolves drag these sleep`n bears out of the bear den and eat these hibernating bears alive. science someday might even discover this in the future or how the real truth of how Minnesota moose population has been destroyed by Wolves too. northern Minnesota Ranchers have been losing cattle for years mostly beef calves but in order to be paid for a killed beef cow or calf you need to show proof ,that`s not always easy when there is no proof left anymore. just call the Kittson County Sheriff in Minnesota he is trying to keep a record now on cattle lost by Wolf depletion.>don`t be fooled there is problem with Wolves,Wolf population does need to be controlled and i feel out west atleast that is somewhat happening,but here in Minnesota these liberal do good`er`s are trying there best to protect Wolves here in Minnesota and it sucks !