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Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: rost495] #14295015 11/20/19
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Originally Posted by rost495
All I can say is there is no food for the animals we desire in a forest.

Nature rebounds so easily.

Personally I'd worry much more about not allowing road/trail access after a cutting than the cutting itself.

Watching em roller chop large sections for grouse habitat I'm just always amazed how quickly nature revives herself.


Most true forest in AK has deer in it. In areas like Kodiak and PWS the deer have very different dynamics in the different habitat types. In the old growth forest the deer do very especially when over-wintering, but the record books show very few seriously big deer in the old growth. In the more open country on Kodiak the deer do much better, size-wise and in productivity... in good years. A bad winter will set them way, way back.


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: alpinecrick] #14295016 11/20/19
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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Originally Posted by AlaskaCub


I’ll never understand why people think like this. Alaska is the size of 4 western states. If you want to hike where there are no people just close your eyes and stick your finger on a map and go for it. But to say that people shouldn’t be able to use atv’s to access hundreds of sq miles of land because you don’t like atv’s blows my mind. Just don’t hike at trailheads that allow access to atv’s and you’ll never hear them. Hunting animals that are huge and saying that if you can’t backpack it out you aren’t a hunter is just [bleep] stupid. Especially when the animal will go bad or get eaten by predators before you can complete the job.



Death by a thousand cuts.......that's what is happening to our public lands.

Logging if done properly can benefit more than hurt--but it is NEVER all or nothing. Problem is, rarely does the federal agencies require it be done properly. And it may not be cost effective for the private firm buying the timber sale if required to do it properly.

When forests grow back from logging--even select cuts--they grow back differently. Is that better or worse? Often we don't know because these things play out over centuries or millenniums.

The single biggest impact of logging?--the roads that are left when the loggers leave. Logging is a temporary impact, constant use of roads is permanent.

Not to mention even today most timber sales on federal lands are break even at best for the taxpayer, more often than not the taxpayer loses money. Nothing like the huge losses of the timber program during the Reagan/Watt/Hodel era, whose policies engendered such a backlash it effectively ended logging for large and mid size timber sales in the lower 48.


When do "you" decide "we" have enough roads and make "us" stop accessing our land?

Alaska is about 5.5x the size of Colorado, yet you have 6x the road mileage. Why can you get to your lands and we cannot? Why not "let" us build an equal number of miles per square mile as Colorado before giving us garbage about your sensitivities?


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: flintlocke] #14295021 11/20/19
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Originally Posted by flintlocke
Biggest problem I see here? Well meaning but ignorant people from everywhere but Southeastern, telling the people in Southeastern how to manage their homeland. That includes the [bleep] Sierra Club and US Forest Service especially. On the Pacific Coast, including the Cascades, Sierras, Coast range, together they have ruined forest, soil stabilization, fisheries, diverse plant and animal species, and done more damage with the catastrophic fuel loads than nature EVER did. An inconvenient statistical fact is, clearcutting in areas that receive upwards of 50 inches of rain annually, enhances animal habitat and diversity of plant life. Good luck Alaskans, the life sciences professors that taught the global climate hoax are the ones now guiding policy in government and the Sierra Club, and the radical environmentalists have got their stooges in the 9th Circuit to enforce it.


I understand LWD and a few other forestry acronyms... I also have seen 30-year-old clearcuts that have NO reprod of any kind. The slash is hardly rotting away. The biodiversity runs mighty thin in the aftermath of a Sitka spruce monoculture clearcuut.


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: KC] #14295444 11/20/19
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The issue isn’t the newer cuts. It’s second growth that has the canopy so thick that it doesn’t allow for good deer browse. Carrying capacity for second growth is 6-7 deer per sq mile. 16-20 for old growth.

Forest service has tried cutting mini clear cuts in second growth to try to increase deer population. I personally think they need a more aggressive thin at the right time.

Last edited by Calvin; 11/20/19.

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Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: KC] #14295459 11/20/19
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Sitka and Alpine get it. And I didn't mean to come off all for cut and run policy. NOBODY knows everything about harvesting timber, fish, or animals. Unfortunately we learn by our mistakes. And some bad mistakes were made. I worked for Thorne Bay Logging, in SE back in the day, and we daily drove through clear cuts made in the '40's (spruce for aircraft?) and they were thick with reprod, recovering nicely. But who knows what damage we did to the salmon. Maybe it couldn't get any worse than the plunder of the salmon in the 1890's-1900's. As far as the Sitka Blacktail, I guess they predominantly feed in reprod, but they need old growth for hard winter survival, so you might surmise that a light checkerboard or strip clearcutting is the best of both worlds. Hopefully they have quit logging in the Chugach, smarter people than I (that ain't hard to find) finally figured it wasn't reproducing. In the early 70's I've seen the huge dock at Haines loaded with export cants, 30 acres?, stacked as high as a big forklift could reach. That can't be sustained.


guilty of white privilege : for 55 years I had the privilege to get up and go to work...to help feed the folks that wanted to sleep in.
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Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: KC] #14295528 11/20/19
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Its pretty easy to see the economics of old growth logging don't add up anymore, those trees benefit a greater number of people and the ecosystem when left standing. But existing roads should be maintained for recreation access and second growth logging. Perhaps the greatest joke of all is native corporations raping and trashing their holdings and then being allowed to trade the feds for more land to do it all over again while leaving the mess of habitat restoration to the taxpayer.

Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: pabucktail] #14295722 11/20/19
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Originally Posted by pabucktail
Its pretty easy to see the economics of old growth logging don't add up anymore, those trees benefit a greater number of people and the ecosystem when left standing. But existing roads should be maintained for recreation access and second growth logging. Perhaps the greatest joke of all is native corporations raping and trashing their holdings and then being allowed to trade the feds for more land to do it all over again while leaving the mess of habitat restoration to the taxpayer.

You NAILED it.


guilty of white privilege : for 55 years I had the privilege to get up and go to work...to help feed the folks that wanted to sleep in.
Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: Calvin] #14296317 11/20/19
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Originally Posted by Calvin
The issue isn’t the newer cuts. It’s second growth that has the canopy so thick that it doesn’t allow for good deer browse. Carrying capacity for second growth is 6-7 deer per sq mile. 16-20 for old growth.

Forest service has tried cutting mini clear cuts in second growth to try to increase deer population. I personally think they need a more aggressive thin at the right time.

In SE, yeah, it may be a heavy young canopy problem, but not on Afognak.

Another huge problem there is the lines drawn on a map to protect salmon streams. First puff of wind and the whole mess gets blown into the creek.


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: Calvin] #14296808 11/20/19
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Originally Posted by Calvin
The issue isn’t the newer cuts. It’s second growth that has the canopy so thick that it doesn’t allow for good deer browse. Carrying capacity for second growth is 6-7 deer per sq mile. 16-20 for old growth.

Forest service has tried cutting mini clear cuts in second growth to try to increase deer population. I personally think they need a more aggressive thin at the right time.


There was a crew doing just that a few years ago near where I was working. Spent at least 2 summers I was there working through the cuts doing selective thinning.

Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: Sitka deer] #14296902 11/20/19
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Originally Posted by Sitka deer


When do "you" decide "we" have enough roads and make "us" stop accessing our land?

Alaska is about 5.5x the size of Colorado, yet you have 6x the road mileage. Why can you get to your lands and we cannot? Why not "let" us build an equal number of miles per square mile as Colorado before giving us garbage about your sensitivities?




The less the roads the better the hunting, it's that simple. When the roads and human pressure--hunting or otherwise-- reduces or drives the critters out then they will blame the federal government for "mismanaging" the lands, and the state for "mismanaging" the wildlife. If there aren't enough roads for you in Alaska, we can do a property and residency swap as soon as you would like--then you can spend the rest of your life driving the Colorado back roads and trails, and probably wear out an ATV every couple years.

Spent three years of my life on the Uncompahgre and then the Montrose District BLM travel management plans dealing with the motorized vehicle crowd. I swear, if they couldn't drive to every friggin' tree on public land they would scream "You're denying us access!" If you let 'em, they would be driving up the steps on their ATV's and into the meeting room......

Remember that thing called "Seward's Folly"? Who paid for that in 1867? The hordes of Alaskans that were living there? Who bought and fought for most of the current federally owned public lands in the western U.S.?

Americans did--with their money and their blood. And it was almost EXCLUSIVELY the Americans "Back East", because there were almost no European-Americans living on those lands at the time.

I'm the first one to say states should have a fair amount of influence in what takes place on federal lands located within their borders. I'm the first to bioitch about the Yuppie Snowflake invasion that is happening throughout the intermountain west. But all federally owned public lands belong to all Americans. Period.


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
Bravo

Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: KC] #14296913 11/20/19
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Quote
Spent three years of my life on the Uncompahgre and then the Montrose District BLM



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Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: watch4bear] #14297122 11/20/19
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try not to be a dumbazz tonight


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: alpinecrick] #14297134 11/20/19
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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Originally Posted by Sitka deer


When do "you" decide "we" have enough roads and make "us" stop accessing our land?

Alaska is about 5.5x the size of Colorado, yet you have 6x the road mileage. Why can you get to your lands and we cannot? Why not "let" us build an equal number of miles per square mile as Colorado before giving us garbage about your sensitivities?




The less the roads the better the hunting, it's that simple. When the roads and human pressure--hunting or otherwise-- reduces or drives the critters out then they will blame the federal government for "mismanaging" the lands, and the state for "mismanaging" the wildlife. If there aren't enough roads for you in Alaska, we can do a property and residency swap as soon as you would like--then you can spend the rest of your life driving the Colorado back roads and trails, and probably wear out an ATV every couple years.

Spent three years of my life on the Uncompahgre and then the Montrose District BLM travel management plans dealing with the motorized vehicle crowd. I swear, if they couldn't drive to every friggin' tree on public land they would scream "You're denying us access!" If you let 'em, they would be driving up the steps on their ATV's and into the meeting room......

Remember that thing called "Seward's Folly"? Who paid for that in 1867? The hordes of Alaskans that were living there? Who bought and fought for most of the current federally owned public lands in the western U.S.?

Americans did--with their money and their blood. And it was almost EXCLUSIVELY the Americans "Back East", because there were almost no European-Americans living on those lands at the time.

I'm the first one to say states should have a fair amount of influence in what takes place on federal lands located within their borders. I'm the first to bioitch about the Yuppie Snowflake invasion that is happening throughout the intermountain west. But all federally owned public lands belong to all Americans. Period.


So road density in your state is roughly 33 times AK's road density and you think it would be wrong for us to poke some long roads out there? Stuff that would not come close to putting us within an order of magnitude of CO's road density. Get real...

As to monies paid for AK you may want to look a bit shorter term. Back a century or so ago the federal government had a thriving industry in AK with fur seals, making far more just on seal skins than we paid for the State. There are a number of gold mines which individually made more money than the cost... and yes, the Feds get a small piece of mining.

How about WWII? Thinking AK had a lot to do with our success...

Then there are those little oilfields all over the place which the Feds have made billions of dollars on. From Katalla with its Wire-wrapped wooden pipe all the way through many parts of Alaska and finally to Prudhoe Bay and ANWR... oh wait, we have not been able to access the oil because of people outside AK that believe we should not be able to build roads or develop our own lands and resources. AK actually sends more money to Federal coffers than we take in and by a considerable margin.

If I promise to NGAF what you do to CO, how about you promising to leave AK alone?


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: alpinecrick] #14297136 11/20/19
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Tell us of your extensive degree, post some certificates of training, list awards, and post picture of desk and chair.


Son of a liberal: " What did you do in the War On Terror, Daddy?"

Liberal father: " I fought the Americans, along with all the other liberals."

MOLON LABE





Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: Sitka deer] #14297152 11/20/19
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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Originally Posted by Sitka deer


When do "you" decide "we" have enough roads and make "us" stop accessing our land?

Alaska is about 5.5x the size of Colorado, yet you have 6x the road mileage. Why can you get to your lands and we cannot? Why not "let" us build an equal number of miles per square mile as Colorado before giving us garbage about your sensitivities?




The less the roads the better the hunting, it's that simple. When the roads and human pressure--hunting or otherwise-- reduces or drives the critters out then they will blame the federal government for "mismanaging" the lands, and the state for "mismanaging" the wildlife. If there aren't enough roads for you in Alaska, we can do a property and residency swap as soon as you would like--then you can spend the rest of your life driving the Colorado back roads and trails, and probably wear out an ATV every couple years.

Spent three years of my life on the Uncompahgre and then the Montrose District BLM travel management plans dealing with the motorized vehicle crowd. I swear, if they couldn't drive to every friggin' tree on public land they would scream "You're denying us access!" If you let 'em, they would be driving up the steps on their ATV's and into the meeting room......

Remember that thing called "Seward's Folly"? Who paid for that in 1867? The hordes of Alaskans that were living there? Who bought and fought for most of the current federally owned public lands in the western U.S.?

Americans did--with their money and their blood. And it was almost EXCLUSIVELY the Americans "Back East", because there were almost no European-Americans living on those lands at the time.

I'm the first one to say states should have a fair amount of influence in what takes place on federal lands located within their borders. I'm the first to bioitch about the Yuppie Snowflake invasion that is happening throughout the intermountain west. But all federally owned public lands belong to all Americans. Period.


So road density in your state is roughly 33 times AK's road density and you think it would be wrong for us to poke some long roads out there? Stuff that would not come close to putting us within an order of magnitude of CO's road density. Get real...

As to monies paid for AK you may want to look a bit shorter term. Back a century or so ago the federal government had a thriving industry in AK with fur seals, making far more just on seal skins than we paid for the State. There are a number of gold mines which individually made more money than the cost... and yes, the Feds get a small piece of mining.

How about WWII? Thinking AK had a lot to do with our success...

Then there are those little oilfields all over the place which the Feds have made billions of dollars on. From Katalla with its Wire-wrapped wooden pipe all the way through many parts of Alaska and finally to Prudhoe Bay and ANWR... oh wait, we have not been able to access the oil because of people outside AK that believe we should not be able to build roads or develop our own lands and resources. AK actually sends more money to Federal coffers than we take in and by a considerable margin.

If I promise to NGAF what you do to CO, how about you promising to leave AK alone?

And speaking of Katalla, I believe it was doing mostly fine until Taft decided to shut it down to further development in 1910 (the year Anchorage was founded) which was one of the many reasons Teddy got pissed at his hand-picked successor.


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: pabucktail] #14297220 11/20/19
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Originally Posted by pabucktail
Its pretty easy to see the economics of old growth logging don't add up anymore, those trees benefit a greater number of people and the ecosystem when left standing. But existing roads should be maintained for recreation access and second growth logging. Perhaps the greatest joke of all is native corporations raping and trashing their holdings and then being allowed to trade the feds for more land to do it all over again while leaving the mess of habitat restoration to the taxpayer.


Spot on!

Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: trapperJ] #14297792 11/20/19
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Originally Posted by trapperJ
Originally Posted by pabucktail
Its pretty easy to see the economics of old growth logging don't add up anymore, those trees benefit a greater number of people and the ecosystem when left standing. But existing roads should be maintained for recreation access and second growth logging. Perhaps the greatest joke of all is native corporations raping and trashing their holdings and then being allowed to trade the feds for more land to do it all over again while leaving the mess of habitat restoration to the taxpayer.


Spot on!


+2


Yup.
Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: AlaskaCub] #14298345 11/21/19
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Originally Posted by AlaskaCub
Originally Posted by rost495
Preservation always bothers me. But then again I think some areas should remain roadless. And in Alaska should be ATVless for sure. They and the laziness or get a moose etc.. at any cost just bothers me. But I like peace and quiet. Never would hunt anything other than wilderness in CO after the first trip


I’ll never understand why people think like this. Alaska is the size of 4 western states. If you want to hike where there are no people just close your eyes and stick your finger on a map and go for it. But to say that people shouldn’t be able to use atv’s to access hundreds of sq miles of land because you don’t like atv’s blows my mind. Just don’t hike at trailheads that allow access to atv’s and you’ll never hear them. Hunting animals that are huge and saying that if you can’t backpack it out you aren’t a hunter is just [bleep] stupid. Especially when the animal will go bad or get eaten by predators before you can complete the job.

I"m still learning, you'll have to give me that. But where I see ATV access, it gets worse and worse. Trails get closer and closer until you can almost wave at each other as they pass. Where we used to walk in and never see or barely hear, it looks more like a checkerboard

But trust me I'm working my way away from those areas.

And I constantly forget that folks are out there getting their meat, not hunting, so don't care about the experience. Sarcasm still says you know that spike fork is so cheap to harvest... LOL.

Anyway I can't help but learn as I go.

But then again I see quite a bit of AK, and find that anywhere a decent size plane can land these days ATVs are all over the place.

I should just get used to progress. And be thankful I"m even allowed to play in AK.

Maybe one of these days my opinions will be correct.

And I hear you on size and packing. limits how far we'll hike on moose for sure.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: alpinecrick] #14298890 11/21/19
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Originally Posted by alpinecrick

Death by a thousand cuts.......that's what is happening to our public lands.

Logging if done properly can benefit more than hurt--but it is NEVER all or nothing. Problem is, rarely does the federal agencies require it be done properly. And it may not be cost effective for the private firm buying the timber sale if required to do it properly.

When forests grow back from logging--even select cuts--they grow back differently. Is that better or worse? Often we don't know because these things play out over centuries or millenniums.

The single biggest impact of logging?--the roads that are left when the loggers leave. Logging is a temporary impact, constant use of roads is permanent.

Not to mention even today most timber sales on federal lands are break even at best for the taxpayer, more often than not the taxpayer loses money. Nothing like the huge losses of the timber program during the Reagan/Watt/Hodel era, whose policies engendered such a backlash it effectively ended logging for large and mid size timber sales in the lower 48.


+1, I have seen the devastating effects of clear cuts in Canada. That's part of the reason for the Quebec-Labrador Caribou crash ( big drop in winter food source, easier road access etc) and now the hunting is closed. Plus, no matter how you cut it, streams and rivers are affected and I have seen fishing completely end on some lakes and streams, taking decades to recover, if ever....

Re: Clear Cutting in the Tongas and Chugas Natl Forest [Re: rost495] #14313966 11/26/19
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Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by AlaskaCub
Originally Posted by rost495
Preservation always bothers me. But then again I think some areas should remain roadless. And in Alaska should be ATVless for sure. They and the laziness or get a moose etc.. at any cost just bothers me. But I like peace and quiet. Never would hunt anything other than wilderness in CO after the first trip


I’ll never understand why people think like this. Alaska is the size of 4 western states. If you want to hike where there are no people just close your eyes and stick your finger on a map and go for it. But to say that people shouldn’t be able to use atv’s to access hundreds of sq miles of land because you don’t like atv’s blows my mind. Just don’t hike at trailheads that allow access to atv’s and you’ll never hear them. Hunting animals that are huge and saying that if you can’t backpack it out you aren’t a hunter is just [bleep] stupid. Especially when the animal will go bad or get eaten by predators before you can complete the job.

I"m still learning, you'll have to give me that. But where I see ATV access, it gets worse and worse. Trails get closer and closer until you can almost wave at each other as they pass. Where we used to walk in and never see or barely hear, it looks more like a checkerboard

But trust me I'm working my way away from those areas.

And I constantly forget that folks are out there getting their meat, not hunting, so don't care about the experience. Sarcasm still says you know that spike fork is so cheap to harvest... LOL.

Anyway I can't help but learn as I go.

But then again I see quite a bit of AK, and find that anywhere a decent size plane can land these days ATVs are all over the place.

I should just get used to progress. And be thankful I"m even allowed to play in AK.

Maybe one of these days my opinions will be correct.

And I hear you on size and packing. limits how far we'll hike on moose for sure.



You do realize that forcing everybody to use the few trails available forces everybody into very small areas and leads to exactly what you seem to dislike... what about spreading them out a bit? A single road through the Alaska Range from Talkeetna, say to Dillingham would be a great start...


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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