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Originally Posted by Heym06
It's been way more than three years since wolves were planted in Oregon.


They were never gone.

The gov't trapper in Curry County killed two young ones back in the 1970s that, so far as dental conditions indicate, had never lived in captivity. I saw one cross I-5 by Sunny Valley just north of Grants Pass back in '87 or '88. I saw another near Elkton .. between I-5 and the coast .. in about '92. (Don't ask what magnification I saw it through or about any loud noises, I know <nothing>.). Another member here saw a pack chowing down on a cow they'd killed in a field between Powers and Myrtle Point. ODFW didn't acknowledge them because they had no means to manage the situation and would have been tasked with doing so if their existence were established, simple as that. I've gotten OR-7 on trail camera several times, others as well. We're seeing videos of wolves (probably the Indigo Pack) on graveled logging roads up by Diamond Lake now .. this fall. An acquaintance of mine reports seeing a pair just below Siskiyou Gap on the Oregon side in a big meadow .. near where FR 20 meets FR 22 in Jackson County.

They are here. They have been here. They never left.

More than that, they will always be here. With the political climate being what it is, even if a hunting season is opened for them(*), the quotas / bag limit will never be high enough for there to be any chance of them being wiped out.

(*) It may piss some folks off, but I am not "anti-wolf." I will, however, do my damnedest to draw the first tag and legally kill the first wolf in a wolf season in the state. Just for the sheer hell of doing it and thumbing my nose at the loons on the left.

Tom


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Originally Posted by Sycamore
Some things no one has mentioned:

How did the moose and elk survive before the white man got here and the elk and moose had no "protection"?

Was the number of Elk and Moose "when I used to hunt them" the right number, or just the number that was there?

What does the browse/graze look like now that there are fewer herbivores?

Are any of you hunters younger and do any of you hunt harder than you did in the good old days?

I believe I can address two of your questions. Before the white man came the game animals lived on the prairie for the most part. The prairie afforded them one major advantage that they don't have now. That is much less snow pack to contend with. Now the wolves are super predators in the deep snow in mountainous country.

Regarding the vegetation, it is one of the major talking points of the pro wolf crowd that the stream side grasses and browse has improved now that the wolves are present. I have fished Slough Creek and the Lamar River in YNP for 45 years, which is ground zero for wolves, and I can tell you without hesitation that there's little to no difference now versus the 1970's and 80's. They speak with a forked tongue.

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A few thoughts from 18 years of hunting wolves as a gvt trapper in montana. Wolves have indeed affected elk populations in certain areas. Yellowstone park, the Sellway wilderness, and the Frank Church wilderness come to mind. I am sure there are a few others as well. The Sellway, and Frank have lost well over half their elk numbers from the early 90s. The wolves don't get hunted with much success in these remote areas. The hunting season in Montana has been removing from 200 to 225 wolves a year for the last 4 or 5 years. Pretty similar numbers in idaho. This has been a good sucess, and has slowed the overall growth. Elk numbers in much of Montana have been at over fwp numbers for years. We have large numbers of elk that never leave the pivots. They are protected there, and it is a giant food plot. I would live there too. The wolves down here today are the same wolves as the past, not a different breed. They have been going back and forth across the Canadian border since forever. We killed a wolf one time that had a GPS collar put on it near Calgary alberta. It went 500 miles in a month eventually setting up shop west of helena. Removing wolves from an area will not be a permanent solution. Once a pack is removed, New wolves will move into good habitat within 6 months to a year. I have a couple places that I have removed 3 or 4 packs due to livestock depredations. Don't blame it all on wolves. The last 2 winters here in western Montana have been rough, especially on the mule deer,and winter kill was high especially on
the Rocky mnt front. Lion numbers are really high,and between them, and grizzly, and black bears, fawn , and calf crops are being heavily impacted in some areas. Hope some of this info helps clarify some questions.

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Bangpop,

To a certain extent, big game did live on "the prairie," but it had little to do with "the white man." Instead it had to do with more food. There always has been relatively little food in the mountains for herd animals, whether elk or bison. This involves elevation, not white men.

Amazing that wolves have turned into "super predators" in deep snow only in "mountainous country." They always have been more effective in deep snow, wherever it occurred--as have coyotes.

Also good to know that you have done extensive analysis of the type and amount of browse available in YNP over the past 45 years. The results from actual scientists (such as the late Les Pengelly, one of the most respected wildlife biologists in the world) came up with different results.


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atse,

Thanks for the dose of reality--especially the claim that the transplanted wolves are a different "subspecies" that is somehow more predatory.

As you no doubt know, the various "subspecies" of gray/timber/etc. wolves so often quoted were developed back when subspecies were declared due to minor differences in a few individual specimens. There is NO difference in the DNA of any of the gray/timber/etc. wolves in North America, or their way of making a living. All of them primarily live by killing big game (contrary to the myth promoted by Farley Mowat). None are more "bloodthirsty" than other so-called subspecies.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
atse,

Thanks for the dose of reality--especially the claim that the transplanted wolves are a different "subspecies" that is somehow more predatory.

As you no doubt know, the various "subspecies" of gray/timber/etc. wolves so often quoted were developed back when subspecies were declared due to minor differences in a few individual specimens. There is NO difference in the DNA of any of the gray/timber/etc. wolves in North America, or their way of making a living. All of them primarily live by killing big game (contrary to the myth promoted by Farley Mowat). None are more "bloodthirsty" than other so-called subspecies.


I have looked at a couple of old books from the early 1900s showing wolf weights, measurements and pictures taken from the last of the livestock killing wolves of the era. The size and weight listed are very similar to the wolves here now.

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
atse,

Thanks for the dose of reality--especially the claim that the transplanted wolves are a different "subspecies" that is somehow more predatory.

As you no doubt know, the various "subspecies" of gray/timber/etc. wolves so often quoted were developed back when subspecies were declared due to minor differences in a few individual specimens. There is NO difference in the DNA of any of the gray/timber/etc. wolves in North America, or their way of making a living. All of them primarily live by killing big game (contrary to the myth promoted by Farley Mowat). None are more "bloodthirsty" than other so-called subspecies.



MD, I don't think anyone here has said that the "new" wolves were a different subspecies....or at least I have never seen where someone on here has said that.
They've always been described as different clines of the same species, like brown and grizzly bears, though I have no idea if brown and griz have different DNA. Do Alberta Whitetails have any difference in their DNA than south Texas Whitetails?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass: I honestly don't know.



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Originally Posted by atse
A few thoughts from 18 years of hunting wolves as a gvt trapper in montana. Wolves have indeed affected elk populations in certain areas. Yellowstone park, the Sellway wilderness, and the Frank Church wilderness come to mind. I am sure there are a few others as well. The Sellway, and Frank have lost well over half their elk numbers from the early 90s. The wolves don't get hunted with much success in these remote areas. The hunting season in Montana has been removing from 200 to 225 wolves a year for the last 4 or 5 years. Pretty similar numbers in idaho. This has been a good sucess, and has slowed the overall growth. Elk numbers in much of Montana have been at over fwp numbers for years. We have large numbers of elk that never leave the pivots. They are protected there, and it is a giant food plot. I would live there too. The wolves down here today are the same wolves as the past, not a different breed. They have been going back and forth across the Canadian border since forever. We killed a wolf one time that had a GPS collar put on it near Calgary alberta. It went 500 miles in a month eventually setting up shop west of helena. Removing wolves from an area will not be a permanent solution. Once a pack is removed, New wolves will move into good habitat within 6 months to a year. I have a couple places that I have removed 3 or 4 packs due to livestock depredations. Don't blame it all on wolves. The last 2 winters here in western Montana have been rough, especially on the mule deer,and winter kill was high especially on
the Rocky mnt front. Lion numbers are really high,and between them, and grizzly, and black bears, fawn , and calf crops are being heavily impacted in some areas. Hope some of this info helps clarify some questions.


Great info, thanks


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T Inman,

Nobody here has specifically said that, but some of the more virulent anti-wolf people continue to claim the transplants were the "MacKenzie River subspecies," which they say is far more predatory than the "native" Montana (or Idaho or whatever) wolves.

In one of my earlier posts I called the wolf transplants "stupid," for two reasons:

As you have pointed out, wolves are very mobile, and Canadian wolves had already moved south into Montana and Idaho from Canada. (In fact the wolves in my particular part of Montana are probably from the Canadian population, not the transplants, though the spread of both populations is meeting around here.)

The biologists who promoted the Yellowstone reintroduction believed the wolves would primarily eat bison, solving one of the long-running biological/poltical problems in the park. While some wolves did eventually start to kill bison, most killed elk.

Grizzly./brown bear DNA is identical, and in fact grizzly/polar bear DNA is so similar they can interbreed and produce fertile offspring--which has been happening amore in recent years, as the populations of overlap more.


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Yes and the scientists that thought the wolves would feed on bison really did not do their homework.

It seems to take ( scientific term 😉 ) wolves a long time to adapt to and figure out bison ( plus get hungry enough I guess) . This was proven in the Wood Buffalo Park onthe NWT/Alberta border. I should know how long it took but it slips my mind

I DO know that the Wood Bison introduced into the Yukon still had not become wolf prey 30 + years after introduction .

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Thanks for that explanation MD....so if costal browns and mountain griz have the exact same DNA but it is biologically accepted that they're "different" animals, I don't think it is out of the question to consider the northern Rocky Mountain wolf "different" than the northwestern (Mackenzie Valley) wolf which I believe inhabits northern Alberta where the transplants came from, but who knows how/if their habits or niches evolved differently or how those differing niches would have affected elk differently in the lower 48.

Like I said in my first post in this thread, there's so much misinformation and uncertainty out there that I can't make heads or tails of the whole situation.



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I know blast from the past have been popular around here lately....... this is from 2009





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Originally Posted by irfubar
Ya how they initially sold wolves to us was they wouldn't leave Yellowstone cuz there was an over-abundance of bison


That's not what I remember...

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Good stuff atse. Thanks for sharing.

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Originally Posted by Lonny
Good stuff atse. Thanks for sharing.


+1

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wolves= i think many people today want to over protect animals they no nothing about,like wolves.


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Originally Posted by T_Inman


Like I said in my first post in this thread, there's so much misinformation and uncertainty out there that I can't make heads or tails of the whole situation.


I'm with T regarding this wolf "problem" and decreasing game numbers and such..

No one did stringent population determinations of wolves/elk/deer back in the "olden days" when wolves numbers started being reduced from historical numbers to where they were when re-introduced.

Perhaps the numbers of elk and other big game animals were artificially high during the heyday of elk hunting in the Rocky Mountain West.....due to large numbers of predators having been removed previously, not to mention wildland management practices (logging etc) that might have favored an artificially increased population of grazers/browsers.

Seems like 20+/- years or so ago I read an article/study about the numbers of abalone on the California coast having been inflated due to the removal of their top predator, the seas otter. So much so that folks could easily collect them wading out to rocks in the intertidal areas of Central and Northern Cali. After 50+ years of this, abalone numbers dropped, even in areas where no otters had been introduced. The introduction of a substitute predator, humans that is, likely dropped the population of abalone back to more historical levels and abalone again were subjected to predation only by diving predators, like humans in wet suits.

The uncertainty is certainly large when discussing elk/wolves and probably many other predator/prey situations.

I'm of the belief that the wolves would have returned to the Rockies "naturally", especially if given protection from hunting. And probably spread from there to OR and CA. Am I happy about them coming to my part of the world? Not necessarily, unless they can put a big dent in the feral horse population. Hard enough here to draw deer/elk tags and if the wolf arrival would mean lower game numbers it might make it nigh on impossible to draw in these NE Cali units.

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A well regulated hunt by sporstman and woman would end the problem if U.S.Fish and Wildlife would do their jobs

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Originally Posted by savage62
if U.S.Fish and Wildlife would do their jobs


I'm no fan of some of the people and policies the DOI and DOA, but have you been to any public meetings or court hearings concerning environmental matters of these types?

The USFWS are doing their jobs for the most part, which is to follow policy and whatever the most recent court rulings tell them to do...the level of controversy is ridiculous, and whenever any type of decision is made favoring "our" side, it is instantly met with lawsuits.



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Where I live in central Idaho there were many more wolves reintroduced there than were in Yellowstone. During the first years after the reintroduction the elk kill by wolves was high which was easily told by the number of carcasses.
Also the number of livestock kills was very high which continues to be a problem -
https://www.postregister.com/farman...c46554b-f37d-592c-b2da-182826a9f4da.html

I live in the heart of some prime elk country and it is easy to see when there is a pack nearby because I will have elk and deer in abundance near the house and outbuildings, they will stay near night and day until the wolves are gone, this is not uncommon you can see the same throughout central Idaho. So yes, at least in this area the elk have learned that they are less likely to be bothered by the wolves if they are near human habitations.

In the first years of the wolf reintroduction, before there was a hunting season for them, I had wolves come right up to my deck steps during the night. It was common to see tracks through my place after a fresh snow, and quite often I would see them within a couple of hundred yards during the day. I have ridden to within 75 yards of them prior to having a hunting season, once hunting season was opened they became much more wary and I rarely see them or their tracks now. They adapt quickly.

Personally I don't mind having them around, my biggest gripe is that I haven't had a good shot at one since the season was opened on them.

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This discussion is why I keep returning to the CF. Different views, experiences and knowledge exchanged for the benefit of all. Without vitriol and name calling. My thanks to all who have contributed. Hunting wolves has rekindled my love of hunting so I am trying to do my bitgrin



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