Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Ever tried to do a cold rust blue at home ?

I have down browning, and thought all bluing was hot blue.

Now I’m reading about cold rust bluing - which sounds like it would take forever but might be worth a run just to see what it’s like.

Disclaimer, I’m setting up for Cerakote, I have a TP tools blasting cabinet, and building a Cerakote oven, time wise I’ll do cerakote, but it’s hard to beat how really nice blueing look IMHO.

Look into the Brownell's modified rust blue process called "Dicropan IM" It's a solution that's applied after doing a polishing and degreasing procedure and immersing the treated parts in boiling water for 5 minutes. A heavy surface rust forms, which is carded off with degreased 4-0 steel wool. It takes at least 5 or 6 applications, but the resulting blue is deep and durable. A Swedish Mauser that I blued that way in 1986 still has the blue in good condition, and I haven't pampered it.
Jerry

Cerakote is not worth the effort IME&O.

I have done it, not on an entire gun but significant parts - butt plate, lever, etc., with excellent results. I have a friend who has done several rifles.

It isn't difficult, doesn't require expensive equipment, but it is time consuming and tedious, requires patience and attention to detail.

Between rust bluing and Cerakote, they are almost in a different universe, philosophically speaking.

Paul

I haven’t had any seen anyone polish metal for blueing, this is the biggest thing that bothers me with trying it...
I may see if I can find a blueing class where they teach it.

I have a 1700 RPM buffer, and software wheels to do it but like I said... this is new to me.

Sisal buffing wheels are the most aggressive, followed by muslin and hard felt. Stack up several 1/2" wide wheels on a mandrel to make a buffing surface 1 1/2 or 2 inches wide. You will need separate wheels for each grit of polishing compound, because no matter how carefully you clean a buffing wheel, a few particles of compound will remain to leave scratches as you move to finer grits of polish. I have wheels with 180, 220, 320, and 400 grit "greaseless" compound, and a hard felt wheel with 1,000 grit grease-based compound for final polishing if I'm going for a mirror finish. If I'm doing a boiling water blue, I stop at a 400 grit finish. The Dicropan doesn't like to work well with mirror polished parts. For polishing supplies check out some of the websites that sell knife making blanks and equipment- - - -they're a little less expensive than Brownell's. Jantz Supply is a good source for polishing equipment and supplies. One of these days I might step up to a Baldor commercial buffer, but at age 73, it's not likely. The greaseless polishing compound I use is sold under the brand name "Polish-O-Ray" and it's available on Ebay. I built my own polishing buffer from a 1/3 HP electric motor and a set of pillow blocks with a drive belt. I have a 3-step pulley on the motor to change the speed of the polishing wheels. I've been using it for nearly 30 years with no problems whatsoever, and it's polished hundreds of parts in that time.
Jerry

I don't think I've ever heard of a community college or any similar facility that has a gunsmithing class. How about hitting a gun show or a pawn shop and picking up a beater gun from the bargain tack to practice on? The book by John Traister- - - -"Gunsmithing At Home- - - -Lock Stock And Barrel" has a good bit of information on metal polishing. One that's out of print but still available on the used book market is "Do It Yourself Gunsmithing" by Jim Carmichael. Both of those books were very useful back when I wanted a custom rifle, couldn't afford one, and had to teach myself to do it.

One final tip- - - -rookie metal polishers have a habit of rounding off corners and polishing away stamped lettering. Only do what's necessary to get a good smooth finish and remove all the old bluing- - - -a too-aggressive polishing job is very obvious to somebody who has been doing bluing for a while, and it can really devalue an heirloom gun.
Jerry

I've used the brownells rust blue, but wasn't aware of a cold way to do it. Basically prep, apply the rust solution, let it rust in a humidity chamber, boil or steam, card off

The C&R arsenal guys have great videos of the process

The Dicropan IM system requires immersing the parts in boiling water, so it's not a "cold" process, but it eliminates the need for rusting in a hot box. Once the parts are polished, I can blue a complete gun using that process in a couple of days. The best cold blue I've ever used is Brownell's "Oxpho-Blue" paste. Warm up the parts with a heat gun or a hair dryer until they're uncomfortable to touch, and blot- - - -don't wipe the Oxpho paste on. Repeat as necessary to get the desired color. After 24 hours of cure time, lightly oil the blued surface. It's great for touching up holster wear, etc. but not so great for doing a whole gun.
Jerry

I am not an expert on this, although I was a gunsmith's flunky and I would advise to proceed only if you have great patience and have a finicky nature. It is a task fraught with peril for someone who wants to 'git er done'. Some tips I did learn: no effort is too great in the degreasing stages, every single screw hole, dovetail, nook and cranny need to be thoroughly attended to. Harsh chemical washing is almost a must (forget quick and easy brake cleaner), Oakite, mixed per instructions was an effective cleaner and the acid in it preps the steel. The "sweat box" must be used in a room of near constant temperature, day and night, condensation causing drips and runs can ruin the job. Don't get carried away with polishing, the higher the polish the more difficult to get a uniform job. The fellow I worked for specialized in rebarrelling Brownings and 1st generation Weatherbys. His work was well regarded. I recall that he dreaded rust blueing high nickel content actions, matching barrel and action were difficult at best.

The actual bluing can be done in the kitchen- nothing more objectionable than boiling water, no evil smells, etc. The real grime and labor comes with the polishing. Don't for heaven's sake have at it with buffing wheels- you will smear/dull the lettering, destroy the sharp edges, and give the steel a rippled look, unless you are a pro and even then I wouldn't allow it done to any of my guns. Work through the grits with hard/semi-hard backers, and stop when you complete the 400-grit stage. Proceed with rust bluing. Follow maker's directions. Construct a sweat box out of scrap plywood big enough to suspend a barreled action inside it, place a hot plate in the bottom on lowest heat setting with a pan of distilled water on it- the goal is to create a sort of damp environment not a hot fuggy one. Card the rust with oil-free 0000 steel wool after boiling/steaming in distilled water. Repeat as necessary to achieve a uniform color- usually (for me) anywhere from four to six applications. Degreasing before bluing is important, but no great voodoo is required- for years I have merely washed with acetone and kept a box of fresh nitrile gloves handy for handling the polished/degreased steel parts, and have enjoyed complete success.

There are doers, watchers, talkers, and Monday morning quarterbacks. I have been taking advice from people who have actually done things successfully for the past 40-something years, and then gone ahead to learn the skills necessary to make things happen. That has worked well for me while building race-winning round track engines, guns, machining, welding, industrial maintenance, and commercial cooking.
Jerry

Yep. When I took the plunge years ago I was confronted with detailed instructions full of a lot of mumbo-jumbo involving lots of equipment I didn't have nor felt like buying. There's always a solution. For example: I didn't have a long steel pan and suitable heat source for boiling a barreled action in. I simply took a piece of PVC pipe long enough and big enough in diameter, capped one end, suspended the barreled action in it and filled it with boiling water from a big pan on the stove. Removed 5-10 minutes later, carded off the black "fuzz" with Liberon oil-free 0000 steel wool, re-rusted, repeated a few more times and ended up with a super looking job. Since then I've been able to afford a "proper" tank and fancy propane burner system but I didn't get it- I stick with the PVC pipe. Probably a dozen rifles and a handful of shotgun double barrels later it still works. Small parts get boiled in an old stainless steel sauce pan.

I had a choice between a nice soft carding wheel (not real cheap, from Brownell's) for use in the drill press, or a wad of cabinet grade oil-free steel wool. I went cheap with the steel wool and am still using it, and actually prefer it now.

Like I said before, and I bet others will agree, the act of actual bluing is a no-brainer. What makes a difference in the final product is the prep work- polishing- beforehand.

Anybody use Laurel Mountain Barrel Brown and Degreaser? Easy to use, no damp box with normal humidity and it always gave me a nice fine grained brown. One of the old luminaries, Bivens I think, speculated in an article that the stuff would work out very well for rust bluing, but that's all I heard. The stuff sure is easy to use for browning.

I would not use a buffing wheel either. The buffer has to be of good quality (expensive) Any wobble or imbalance will show up in the work and it takes quite a bit of power to spin a wheel with all that friction.The things are hard to control without lots of practice. And you're not looking for a mirror finish anyway. All sources say what Gnoahh said, go no finer than 400 grit. Which makes sense, the first thing rusting would do is destroy all that nice, mirror finish.

Maybe a lot of years of doing lapidary work on semi-precious stones like agate, Tiger Eye, and various other materials for making cabochon jewelry helped me avoid all the dreadful consequences of power polishing metal that everybody seems to fear like the boogeyman. Getting a mirror finish on gun parts with 555 polish before having another smith with a hot blue system dunk 'em is my way of getting a finish better than matte or semi-gloss. That has worked for me for over 30 years. I did invest the 30 bucks for a 6" carding wheel with .002" diameter wires- - - - -it paid for itself in labor time on the first job I used it on, and the rest of the time saved since then has been icing on the cake. One of my students found a 4X8 foot sheet of 16 gauge stainless steel lying in the street and gave it to me- - - - -it made four 6 X 6 X 36 inch boiling tanks for the cost of getting a welding shop to cut and bend the material and weld the ends on.

I brown with Laurel Mountain all the time- - - - -it works great! I've never tried it for bluing- - - - -Dicropan IM works too well for me to try anything else.
Jerry

I did a 1950’s wingmaster using the laurel mountain forge barrel browning but following their instructions for rust blue. It turned out great. They claim no degreasing required but I did anyway to be sure. The instructions can be pulled off their website.

I am getting ready to do a Hawken rust blue and am going to test the no degrease method. My only advice is to not polish too much or it won’t take. I sanded some parts with finer than 600 grit and it didn’t take as well as the stuff I used coasrer paper on. I wouldn’t go any finer than 400.

Probably. I gave it a try with a good bench grinder (not good enough for real work) on black powder and small pieces so I didn't ruin anything important, and it's all technique in keeping the edges sharp and the flats wave free. Much like the dreaded Dremel. A marvelously handy tool for gunsmithing but if you don't know the tool it lets you screw up equally marvelously and at high speed.

And to pass on a rumor, it's been said that polishing on a buffer closes the pores of the metal and it won't take the browning solution properly. I don't quite believe that but hell, I don't know. For the price of a basic buffing setup you can buy a hellofalot of sandpaper.

I used Laurel Mountain a couple times. Worked great. Last few projects was with stuff called Rust Blue. (Imagine that for a name!) Google it. He sells a bunch of different solutions geared toward meeting your final expectations, and mixes your stuff, like, a minute before he ships it so it's fresh as possible. More expensive than Laurel or Brownell's, but I feel it gives a better job. And after all, if I have an ungodly number of hours invested in prep work the last thing I want to do is go cheap at the end.

Thanks, got one of those "some day" projects in the works that would be best with a nice rust blue, nice to hear a good report. I also degrase before browning with the stuff but perhaps not so thoroughly. Word is that a powerful detergent was added to the basic solution and I don't want to test it's limits. Mainly I don't have to take all those skin oil from handling precautions that are in the old gunsmithing books.

Thanks gnoahh, I'll keep that in mind. It's a project to make a classic style full length stock Mauser on an Argie action with refinements like a good single set trigger that don't really fit classic but tickle my fancy. Project startd but life intervened. Someday...

I've got the old Neidner formula and rust bluing process around here somewhere, as described by Shelhaemer I think, and oh my what a fear of the slightest trace of oil in getting the"panther piss" to strike. It's a nitric acid based concoction, ask for that and you're immediately under suspicion as a bomb maker these days.

One of my tanks is a dedicated degreaser. I use a strong solution of Trisodium Phosphate (concrete cleaner) and water heated to just below boiling, maybe 180-190 degrees. If you want to pay three times as much for a brand name, buy the degreaser Brownell's calls "Dichro-Clean"- - -it's the same stuff! 10 minutes in that solution, then a dip in boiling water to rinse the degreaser off, and from that point on I use nitrile gloves to handle the parts.
Jerry

See, all that hoo-ha and handling for 5-6 rusting/cardings is what got me thinking the Laurel Mountain stuff. I hate re-work. But the stuff gnoahh mentioned souns like it may be worth the trouble. Anyways I have time to agonize over it until I get that far. (Like agonizing on whether or not to have the action re-heat treated. )

It's not hard to do, but it is time consuming, and attention to detail is important.

Excellent info/supplies here:

http://www.rustblue.com/about/instructions/

I've used 2 or 3 solutions, Bob's work very well.

Sounds like a neat project. What's the story behind the single set trigger? Rare beasts on Mausers.

Back when me and my pardner did bluing we tried to gather up more than one or two guns to do at once.

It helps spread out the cost of the stuff needed to jet them looking good.

A good job can be done with cold bluing if the parts are heated up hot to the touch.

As for the barrels we used scotchbrite.

The fine stuff didn't scratch.

gnoahh, It's one Brownell's sold, by golly I don't recall if its the NECG they list now but it was supposed to be a very good normal trigger if you work with it. The set part appealed to me back when I was enamored with light triggers. The idea was my idea of the ultimate East River SD deer rifle. I've always liked the lines of a full stock so it's that with a Shilen (#3?) barrel in .270. 20" barrel which Mule Deer said should work. Got a nice stock from the previous incarnation of Richard's so plenty of meat to work with. Not spectacular but better than good. One thing I want to try is a nice checkered bubinga burl inlay under skeletonized butt plate and grip cap. And a styleized butterknife bolt handle, hate the looks of a ball and it's no use to me the way I work an action. That's where the project stopped. Welded on a chunk of steel and after a lot of grinding I'm not satisfied so when it starts again cut it off and try again. Brownell's had a simple but classy checkering pattern with just a hint of carving which I think I can track down that really appealed to me. And of course it would require a pretty rust blue.

Sorta classic the way I would've liked it to be. Would like to try that in black powder. There was a Pennsylvania school, the name escapes me, that focused on the lines of the wood and steel working together rather than sticking furniture all over the place. Would like to try that too. Which would be equally non-typical because I'd want a plains caliber.

Sounds a treat. Full stocks are a challenge to get "right". Rule of thumb: whittle it down until it looks right, sleep on it, then whittle a bunch more. So many well meaning guys neglect the fact that you gotta have a slight reverse camber in the profile from the forward action screw to the end cap, but I bet you knew that. So many I see today look like 2x4's. Butterknife handles are tricky too, but I'm of no use there as I've never done one, but I do agree that when done right are efficient and classy in their own way.

I think you'll find that all the "schools" of Pennsylvania long rifle architecture focused on the lines of wood and steel working together first, and embellishment came second. Sometimes all that furniture* (inlays, patch boxes, and such) does draw the eye away from the basic form. My family heirloom Nicholas Beyer rifle is a plain "working rifle" devoid of any inlays and sports no carving that doesn't support the lines of the stock. (In fact, on top of its plainness, it's a "smooth rifle" also- no rifling. A fact of life among practical frontier rifles was that a tightly fitting patched round ball out of a smoothbore possesses near-rifle like accuracy out to 50 yards or so, and the smoothbore handles shot charges for small game way better than a rifled bore does. Very practical, and very common on what was the frontier in the late 18th-early 19th centuries.) The gun's plainness is an elegance all its own due to its well thought out lines.

* I can't help it- so many mis-informed people these days call the stock "furniture", when in truth furniture is the stuff attached to a stock.

Good conversation fellas, lots of good info. Might have to find me a classic Mauser project once completed with this winters Hawken project.

The wood will be a challenge. at least with the bolt handle you can start over/ One trick I plan on trying is building in a carbon fiber box beam to hold things straight. Just how I'm not sure, several optinns. Right now carbon bow laminations and spray urethane foam for the core are in the lead. Should be able to keep it all one piece with no warping worries.

Could be the execution of pictures of pieces I've seen but few inlays to disturb the beauty of the wood and almost no carving. The carving there is has that it grew there look. "The gun's plainness is an elegance all its own due to its well thought out lines." That's where my eye takes me along with good wood. I cannot do that and perhaps never will get the flow between wood and steel just right.

Lassen Community College in Susanville, CA teaches gunsmithjng. Montgomery Community College in N. Carolina, Trinidad State Jr College in Trinidad, CO. Murray State College, in OK. More than a few......

Yo Mike, does Co School of Trades still exist over on your side of the hill ?

Sounds interesting. I've toyed with the idea also of mortising in a carbon fiber tube or rod also, but never got around to it. Do keep us posted!

The thing is, Mother Nature is a b*tch, and if she wants to warp a fore end she'll do it. There's a lot of force exerted by wood when it warps and a simple structural reinforcement like this may not be sufficient to overcome it. I don't know. I think Art, Sitka Deer, has some thoughts on that.

Yes, Co School of Trades is still around. Though, I believe it is a Technical School rather than a JC or Community College.

Yes, of course.

You must lead a sheltered life.

Art likes to embed pieces of broken fishing rods, which is good. But with a box beam I think you can design beam with less flex for size using composite techniques. For bows you can buy unidirectional prepreg carbon layups which solve a lot of problems right there. Then band saw to a taper that will maximize structural soundness while fitting curvey wood. Build a U channel, fill with spray urethane and add a top for a composite box beam.

Of course you need a good piece of wood to start with, it's not nice to fool Mother Nature. Fixed a .410 stock with a true firewood stock. Wood in the butt stock had warped with such strength that a sizable piece of it had popped out of the stock. Relieved stress as best I could, forced it together, and epoxied it. No idea of how long it held. Belonged to an older woman, that was her gun when she hunted with her father. Hopefully it lasted 'til she died.

On the other hand I've mused about hollowing out a stock to laminate thickness and building an internal composite stock. Certainly would solve pretty wood/stability issuers.

The engineering part is fun, The artsy part, getting al the lines right for that organic look, scares me. I think that's what fascinates me. A chamber holding 50 kpsi plus right next to a trigger that would impress a watchmaker. All in a package that well represents an architectural period all to the admiration of art aficionados. Wish - dream - that I could do it all.

Oh, on decorations. Used to spend time in the Smithsonian before I got into black Powder. But what impressed me most was all the shiny crap people added to guns. Particularly trade guns. About 5 pounds of brass tacks in one trade rifle. So anything you make is authentic in one sense or another.

The second was the collection of old uniforms, dating back to pre-revolutionaty days. We are giants by comparison.

I've done the traditional slow rust bluing with good results but over the last few years I've used Mark Lee's Express Blue #1 ( no humidity box required ) with very good results. If you pay attention to what you're doing, you can't tell the difference between it and the traditional slow rust blue. It isn't a fast process but is less work than the traditional methods.

Rust bluing is probably one of the easiest things for a home gun worker to accomplish with highly successful results. It really only requires patience and attention to detail. Investment is minimal, and required equipment can be purchased or made without prohibitive cost. Bluing small parts and gun furniture (grip caps, buttplates, triggerguards, etc...) can be successfully blued with equipment virtually any kitchen currently contains. The only purchase required in that case is the rust bluing solution, gloves (cotton or latex), and cotton applicators. Caution........some cotton balls are impregnated with stuff which will spread an oily substance when applying solution.

I used Mark Lee's #3. I used a stainless tank for boiling barreled actions with a three burner heat source. I also built a humidity box with a light bulb heating source over a shallow water container. A second light bulb on a rheostat higher in the box to adjust for humidity that may cause condensation. You will certainly have to adjust the humidity box for the area of the country and time of year you are bluing. My free time for bluing mostly happened during winter time in Wisconsin, so I was generating more humidity in the box than would ever be required in other areas of the country.

I degreased with Simple Green cleaner and boiling water. I hand polished to 320 grit.........with backing. After degreasing, the metal parts are never handled without gloves. I also changed gloves frequently.

The very first application of rusting solution can be applied aggressively. It can be rubbed in liberally, but not left excessively wet or dripping. Then the metal is set in the damp box for rusting. You must get a feel for how long rusting is required. Check frequently to see when orange rust is developing. Allowing to rust too long will develop pitting. Better too short than too long. It just may require more rusting sessions. After the rusting session, the metal is suspended in the boiling tank of distilled water. This boiling will convert the orange rust to a black "fur". At the conclusion of boiling, remove the metal part and immediately blow it dry with a hair dryer. Any dripping water has the capability of creating a stain if not blown dry quickly. I carded off the black fur with a fine wire stainless brush (degreased) in my variable steel drill. If you have a bench buffer, so much the better. This first session will invariably look like crap. Don't be discouraged.............it's the first of 7-8 iterations.

The 2nd, and further applications of bluing solution, must be applied with a gentle hand. Float the applicator in overlapping strokes, just leaving a damp covering on the metal. Think in your mind that every successive application will be applied with less pressure, and less solution. Applied bluing solution can remove bluing that is on the metal. Some metals will require more sessions than others, but in 30 years as a hobby, I've not found one that wouldn't ultimately take a good rust blue.

To get a feel for what this procedure entails, blue some small parts. You can boil them in a pan on the kitchen stove, and a temporary damp box can be accomplished by using a plastic container, with vented or cover ajar. Place a small shallow dish of hot water in the corner to provide humidity. You can see the rust developing, and boiling off and carding is pretty simple. It will work. Degrease. Apply solution as described above. Handle only with gloves. Provide some humidity while rusting.......not so much that condensation develops.

Some people have successfully carded with degreased steel wool. I never got comfortable with that method, but know it will work, and a brush wheel is one less thing to purchase.

Oxpho blue. NRA Summer courses at several community colleges across the country. A copy of "Gunsmith Kinks" (or more than one) will provide at least several ways to blue or brown stuff economically or expensively your choice. Lots of Info out there...

Trinidad Colorado has a college that has a 2 week NRA gunsmithing class.

This^^^^^^

irfubar;
Merry Christmas to you sir, I hope the day's going to be a grand one for you and yours.

Am caffeinating with the good wife, waiting for our local daughter and her husband to show up and our non-local daughter and her partner to get up, so of course am perusing the 'Fire....

It has to be 35 years now that I've been rust bluing - again not a papered smith here, just a semi-serious student of all things that burn powder - well or go twang or air guns...well you know.

For solution I use a mixture we found in a gunsmith book from the '30's and while it works really well - and I have 2 big glass jugs of acid to mix it - it's a little tricky to not gas one's self while mixing. Then too I like to dilute it down so it rusts slower and doesn't pit as GrandView mentioned.

Anyway, GrandView put the SOP down legibly and concisely in my experience - well done sir!

Although I'm always saying there's a few roads to Mecca - that's the road I've traveled and firearms that got done that way 3 decades back still look and work fine.

Merry Christmas to you all and all the best in 2020.

Dwayne

Years ago I played with a couple home brew solutions and they did work. Nowdays I just use store bought stuff. Kinda a PITA trying to roll your own, unless you want to just because you can.

I watched my father do cold blue in the bathtub in 1963.

I do it in the sink.

[quote=Clarkm]I watched my father do cold blue in the bathtub in 1963.

ditto. Only it was in '72 ...

I’ve had great results with laurel mountain solution, a humid summer day in my garage, and bathing in boiled water poured into PVC pipe for the larger parts. Nothing fancy but worked great.

Wheelnut,

It may be a couple of years but once I move and build my bigger shop I’ll get into Blueing, it seems like it’s becoming a lost art. Hot blue is not that hard, and probably more durable than cloud bluing, but with both it’s the polishing you have to master.