Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: Brad] #14327651 12/01/19
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 47,732
Mule Deer Online Content
Campfire Oracle
Online Content
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 47,732
Brad,

Here's one "gunwriter" who doesn't say bigger bulls are harder to kill--and I've also known other writers who don't believe it either, some of whom have killed more elk than many other hunters and gunwriters. Bob Milek killed a pile of elk, and among his favorite rounds was the .25-06.

That also jibes with a Colorado elk outfitter I met a number of years ago, whose clients had taken an average of around 30 elk a season for many years. Have told this story before but here it is again: I asked him what he felt was a good minimum cartridge for elk hunting, and he immediately said: "Two fifty-seven." I then asked him whether he meant the .257 Roberts or .257 Weatherby, and he said, "Either one!" Bob Milek's .25-06 falls right between them.

As you pointed out, one of the potential problems of judging "adequate" cartridges is is "confirmation bias." Quite a few hunters start with their mind made up. They also rarely or observe other people shooting big game, particularly elk hunters, because they tend to hunt alone even if they camp with others. And even if they do see others kill game, firmly believe a hunter has to personally pull the trigger for rifle/cartridge experience to be valid.

The other problem, of course, is that many hunters (and even many guides and outfitters) still have almost no clue about the difference the specific bullet can make in on-game performance. I still run into many Montanans who firmly believe any bullet lighter than 180 grains is inadequate for elk, both because all they've used are typical cup-and-cores, and they've rarely seen anybody else kill elk. I even knew a younger elk guide in Idaho who believed the .338 Winchester with a 225-grain bullet was the best minimum. Why? Because that's the cartridge he picked years earlier as a teenager--and used with a particular 225-grain cup-and-core. He was even astounded when any smaller cartridge killed big game quickly. Thus, once again, confirmation bias.

Of course, one of the reasons I wrote this is the numerous times I've heard, "Gunwriters always say X." Gunwriters do NOT all have the same opinions, any more than other hunters so do not all write the same things. Perhaps the most blatant example occurred when Eileen and I had a table at the Bozeman gun show maybe a decade ago, partly to sell our own books. One guy around 60 stopped and looked them over, then said, "So you write about hunting rifles? Why is it all you gunwriters say the .270 isn't enough for African plains game?"

I looked at him and said, "I've never written any such thing, because I know from experience it's not true." But he was already too far into his rant to hear me. (Or maybe he was simply a deaf older shooter.) He went on for a couple more minutes before finally leaving. Instead of trying to argue with him, I just waited him out, which over the years I've discovered is easier than arguing with such people.

Personally, the minimum cartridge I know is adequate for elk is, like my outfitter acquaintance in Colorado, the .257, whether Roberts or Weatherby, because I've seen the job done cleanly with one bullet from both.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
300 BP

Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: Mule Deer] #14327671 12/01/19
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 27,491
Brad Offline
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 27,491
John, good stuff as usual.

I know you and know you're not "one of those gunwriters." Of course we all stumble in what we say and write, and I should have said "some gun writers."

Problem is, those are the ones that are most adamant and loudest... a lot like some of the personalities on this forum.



Deep greens and blues are the colors I choose.
Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: Brad] #14327877 12/01/19
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 47,732
Mule Deer Online Content
Campfire Oracle
Online Content
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 47,732
Yep!

However, some of them do change their minds over the years--but we tend to remember their adamant statements. Craig Boddington has changed somewhat over the years, partly due to actually shooting a big bull elk with the .270 Winchester, with a 150-grain bullet at over 400 yards during a hunt on the Whittington Center in New Mexico. It went down faster from a plain lung-shot than any other bull he'd taken up to that time with larger cartridges. Then his daughter started hunting, and used the 7mm-08 in Africa with good results not just on one animal, but quite a few. And Craig acknowledged that he'd had to reevaluate some of his long-time beliefs.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: Brad] #14328986 12/01/19
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 170
Andy3 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 170
Brad, You point out how what I do works, but then start critiquing what I do, with comments like...... experience can be long but narrow.....and confirmation bias....how heavy my rifles are......and how I don't know what a 7-08 does unless I use one.

I don't question what works for you, so who put you in charge of doing that to others? Or perhaps this is your idea of a "discussion"? To be truthful, you come across as a bit of a self righteous ass.

I don't shoot pheasants with a .410, or fly fish with 7X tippet, or big game hunt with a lesser cartridge.

At the risk of "justifying what I do"......see specific responses, below.



Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by Andy3

Off the top of my head, I can recall killing elk with: 8mm Rem, 375 H&H, 300 win, 338 win, 54 cal muzzleloader. And one cow, many years ago, with a .270.
It's a pretty even split, I would guess, between the 300 win and 375 H&H, for total count.


Thanks for the response Andy. It does, however, bring to mind an old saying; "experience can be long but narrow." Another old saying is, "if aint' broke, don't fix it"

You obviously favor large armament, and have not veered from that philosophy. Of course there's nothing in the world wrong with that. A big gun is never a bad thing, as long as you can shoot it (you obviously can). However, the term "confirmation bias" does come to mind. Hmmm... Yes, I can confirm. Large, heavy bullets kill bigger animals, quicker than little bullets.....other than CNS hits.....and leave a large exit hole, which is always welcomed.

I've used the 338 WM and 300 on big bulls. I've used the 270, 7-08, 30-06, and 308 on big bulls. They all died, but lighter rifles are far more enjoyable to pack for my hunting style (mostly backpack hunts), and lighter recoiling cartridges are more fun to shoot in light rifles. Obviously if a horse is carrying your rifle, within reason it really doesn't matter what it weighs. However, I prefer rifles around 6.75 lbs "all up" (scoped, w/ sling and rounds). For me, the 338's and 300's really should weigh in the 7.75lb range, and really, a bit more weight is better (it goes without saying "balance" is more important than sheer weight or lack of it). I've never seen where a pound or two makes much difference, at the end of the day. My daypack weighs several times more than my rifle....If I'm gonna shed pounds, I'll look there first.

I'd also suggest you really don't know what a 7-08 with a 150 gr bullet is capable of unless you've killed more than a few elk with it and similar rounds. Cartridges are truly more alike than different. Punch the lungs and elk die quickly like any other deer. Hit them at the margins, they'll run all day no matter the cartridge. And despite what gunwriters say (and which everyone seemingly repeats), I've never found big bulls die much different than any other average sized elk. Blasphemy I know... When I was a kid, my dad was a bush pilot, in Alaska. I killed a 68" bull moose with a .243 and 100 gr cup n core bullet, with one shot. It took awhile before he died, and I had my dad backing me up with a .300 weatherby, if needed. That doesnt' make a 243 a moose cartridge....but, using your logic, maybe it does? Anyhow, as the famous quote says......when I grew up, I put childish things away.

At the end of the day, we only have ourselves to please. But I can truthfully report there has never been a bull I've taken, including old mountain animals in the 6.5-11.5 yo range, that needed anything more than a good bullet from a 7-08. On this we agree....the bigger the game, the larger the cartridge I use.....and that pleases me!



Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: Mule Deer] #14329013 12/01/19
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 170
Andy3 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 170
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Yep!

However, some of them do change their minds over the years--but we tend to remember their adamant statements. Craig Boddington has changed somewhat over the years, partly due to actually shooting a big bull elk with the .270 Winchester, with a 150-grain bullet at over 400 yards during a hunt on the Whittington Center in New Mexico. It went down faster from a plain lung-shot than any other bull he'd taken up to that time with larger cartridges. Then his daughter started hunting, and used the 7mm-08 in Africa with good results not just on one animal, but quite a few. And Craig acknowledged that he'd had to reevaluate some of his long-time beliefs.



John, Is this the write up regarding the bull your referring to? If so, I don't think Mr. Boddington has jumped on the 270 wagon....at least not with both feet!

https://www.cabelas.com/product/Elk-Medicine/532930.uts

Alpha

Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: Andy3] #14329153 12/01/19
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 47,732
Mule Deer Online Content
Campfire Oracle
Online Content
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 47,732
Andy3,

I was not referring to any particular "write up," because I have read several--and also stood in the very spot where Craig shot from, maybe 2-3 years later, with the guy who was with him at the time, now-retired Whittington Center director Mike Ballew. Mike also pointed out where the bull was standing, and described Craig's surprise when it dropped so quickly.

Having some experience in the same business as Craig, I am not surprised he hasn't "jumped on the .270 wagon," because real hunting-gun journalists (as opposed to those who made up their minds years ago), need to keep experiencing, experimenting and reporting. I was pointing out that Craig has learned from his experiences--and reported on that experience honestly, along with his daughter's use of the 7mm-08. Whether he jumped on any wagon is beside the point.

In fact, I was in the process of deciding on what to write for my monthly column for the Campfire. One of the ideas involved how being a gunwriter can result in actually learning something, if you haven't already made up your mind. Your comments helped make up my mind to write on exactly that subject.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: donsm70] #14329298 12/01/19
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 170
Andy3 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 170
John, Glad to help!

Take care, Andy3

Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: Mule Deer] #14329484 12/01/19
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 22,867
alpinecrick Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 22,867
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
super T,

Excellent points.

Have actually seen the objective bells of longer scopes bent slightly, but noticeably, after riding around for a while....


I've seen two rifles that had their barrels bent--both of them by horses while the rifle was in the scabbard, one barrel was a 24" and the other a 26" (it was a very pretty Mark V no less).


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: donsm70] #14330507 12/02/19
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,822
Jim_Knight Offline
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,822
Did the horse roll over on them Alpine? What do you think caused the damage? I've always taken a rifle out of the scabbard any time I was away from the horse awhile. Those crazy things always seem to find a way to rub or roll over, even when tied! ha Many times, I just rode with the rifle slung or across the pommel ala John Wayne ( the Searchers) style, lol. "That cuts it Preacher!"

Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: donsm70] #14330548 12/02/19
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,822
Jim_Knight Offline
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,822
Just to clarify "my" definition of marginal. Any load that will not completely penetrate on a broadside shot "most of the time". To me, smaller calibers require that I wait for a shot presentation that I am comfortable with, meaning in my mind I am 80% sure I will get the results I'm after. I pass a lot of shots, or course, I think we all do. IOW, I won't take a hard angling shot that I am not 80% sure of with even a heavy rifle and not at all with a smaller round. Just me. I like to shoot heavy animals with heavy/hard hitting rounds; I just like that "OMG I've been shot"! look on their face! smile

But, I know several guys who kill their elk every year with .243, 6mm Rem, one 240W, far more with .270/30-06/7mm Rem Mag than 300s-375s. I know only two fellows that use a 25-06. Never ran into anyone over here with a 257 Roberts. If good bullets/good shooting is done, I can't honestly say anyone is wrong. Nowadays, the most "unethical" thing I see is NOT using a smaller round, but shooting at a longer range than they have practiced for. I am worthless judging the wind past "hold on the windward edge of the kill area", so LR is much shorter for me than most. I guess that's why I am more comfortable in the edges or timber. Rare to get broadside, but I do get them! smile

Last edited by Jim_Knight; 12/02/19.
Bravo

Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: donsm70] #14330672 12/02/19
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,308
keith Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,308
+1

Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: donsm70] #14330912 12/02/19
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,374
BuzzH Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,374
15th elk I've shot since 2013 with a 7-08, 140 Accubonds...73rd elk I've shot.

[Linked Image from photos.imageevent.com]

My Dad, Brother, and a good friend have all killed elk with the same rifle. My wife has shot 2 elk in her life, both good 6 point bulls, with her 7-08 and 140 accubonds, both one shot kills and combined they went less than 20 yards after being shot.

I've sort of come full circle on elk and what I shoot them with. I started using a 6mm, quickly went to a 30/06, then a .338. Used a 7 RM for a number of years, but since 2013 have only shot one with anything bigger than a 7-08 (shot one with my Dads pre 64 in 30/06). Haven't killed one with a .338 since 2006.

I cant say shooting them with my .338 resulted in quicker kills than the ones I've shot with a 7-08, or even a .243/6mm for that matter.

Used my 6mm remington I just had re-barreled on one this year too...and a 95 grain ballistic tip, complete pass-through at pinch over 100 yards. Same performance as most other elk I've shot through the lungs...40-50 yard scramble and done.

[Linked Image from photos.imageevent.com]

Elk aren't nearly as tough to kill as most people believe.

Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: donsm70] #14332118 12/02/19
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,822
Jim_Knight Offline
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,822
Dang Buzz! 73 elk! First off, I'm jealous, 2nd, how do you sleep at night? surely you are "haunted" by that many dead elk! ha. Congrats. That is a nice looking 6mm you ave there!

Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: Jim_Knight] #14332263 12/02/19
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,374
BuzzH Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,374
Originally Posted by Jim_Knight
That is a nice looking 6mm you ave there!


That's the first hunting rifle I ever owned, ruger m77 that my Dad and Grandfather bought for me in the winter of 1979. I beat the hell out of it in my youth, so re-barreled and reworked the stock. Back to as good as new...

[Linked Image from photos.imageevent.com]

Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: donsm70] #14332295 12/02/19
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 11,315
Judman Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 11,315
Big Roosevelt cow I killed with my 6ai, 80 gr bt
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
Hey Bama, say, ocotillo....
Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: Judman] #14332345 12/02/19
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,070
10gaugemag Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,070
Originally Posted by Judman
Big Roosevelt cow I killed with my 6ai, 80 gr bt
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I need to load some of those in my 6 and kill some deers w em.


The horned toad says we should go to Mexico.
Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: donsm70] #14332420 12/02/19
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 11,315
Judman Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 11,315
Pretty impressive combo out to 450


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
Hey Bama, say, ocotillo....
Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: donsm70] #14332473 12/02/19
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,659
SLM Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,659
You guys are going to put a few into a tail spin talking about killing elk with a 6mm.

Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: donsm70] #14333983 12/03/19
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 817
AKduck Online Content
Campfire Regular
Online Content
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 817
Good stuff Buzz. Nice rifle there.


Yup.
Re: 7mm-08 with 150 gr Nosler Partitions [Re: donsm70] #14334822 12/03/19
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,009
beretzs Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,009
Neat rifle Buzz! Love seeing those old rifles with new tubes still getting after it!


Semper Fi
Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  RickBin, SYSOP 

RR1
Who's Online Now
928 registered members (117LBS, 10gaugemag, 14Homer, 12344mag, 163bc, 10ring1, 93 invisible), 3,342 guests, and 464 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RR2/3










Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2020 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 5.6.40 Page Time: 0.127s Queries: 15 (0.005s) Memory: 1.1954 MB (Peak: 1.5163 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2019-12-09 02:21:07 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS