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I bet they piled on the varnish, many coats, while blocking out (sanding with semi-hard backed x-fine paper) between coats. 8-10 coats sounds like a lot but when you consider the amount of sanding between coats that's involved the resultant mil thickness isn't that much. It does yield a finish with a lot of "depth". It remains my favorite way to finish walnut. (I just finished building a black walnut table for a client, 12 coats of varnish. She was ecstatic, and paid me more than what I asked for.) No separate pore filling, each successive coat of varnish fills more and more of the pores, and then a couple extra coats after that. For a more subtle luster, I work with glossy varnish (for its better UV protection) and then rub out the final coat to a very dull look. Then a coat of paste wax restores it to a soft elegant luster.

Pretty labor intensive, but the results are worth it - to me.

I've executed varnish finishes that had many coats as I described, and when finally rubbed out and waxed I was accused of creating oil finishes. Some of you may remember the multi-barrel 1899H takedown I built. That's how I did that stock. I'll bet there's more than one high grade gun stock out there purported to be a "London Oil Finish" which in fact is merely a very expertly varnished specimen.


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$235 for a 22 rifle in 1915 is quite the price, so probably reflects extra labor in London finish and other add ons. A plain model 1914 was a lot less in 1915. What would $235 be in 2019 dollars?


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Oh, around a gazillion dollars I would guess!


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Probably around 4k.
Per Wikipedia, a new Model T Runabout cost $390.00 in 1915.

Last edited by night_owl; 12/03/19.


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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Oil with varnish mixed in, the exact proportions closely guarded by whichever old bewhiskered craftsman was mixing it, not to mention the odd metallic compound added here and there to provide mystical qualities. Sometimes a bit of beeswax was melted in and the mixture applied when warm so everything stayed in solution. Secret is to fill the pores first- that's where the extra labor and higher cost comes in. In the olden days varnish was applied and sanded right back down to the bare wood surface taking fastidious care to not sand away the varnish in the pores. Repeated as necessary until the pores are 100% filled and the surrounding wood is bare. (Nowadays varnish is still used- I do- and epoxy is a great substitute. The problem is with varnish it can shrink over time and telegraph through the finish to reveal miniscule pore craters. That's why you should let it cure for a while before oiling to make sure you don't get tricked. Epoxy fixes that but is a royal PIA because it's so hard.) Then the oil/varnish mixture is applied. Wax with a good paste wax when done.

I've yet to meet a proprietary pore filler that beats varnish or epoxy, but they are easier to apply, for sure. (But like all things in this man's world you get what you pay for, and there is no panacea for plain hard work.)

Of course all this works best on thin shell walnut stocks (English/French/Circassian/etc. walnut) with miniscule pores. Our American black walnut with its Grand Canyon-like pores is a bigger challenge.

Sometimes old recipes called for shellac instead of varnish, but to my way of thinking then you're getting into the realm of French Polishes, and besides who wants shellac on a gun stock. (Think about the real possibility of it getting wet when hunting, and harken back to what a wet drink glass does to a shellaced table top- turns white.) On the other hand, if it's an exhibition-only kind of masterpiece, why not?


Yup, with extra points awarded for covering the alchemist's patented secrets.

Also addressing the import of wax in building finishes back in the day... and on into today.


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Originally Posted by Calhoun
Listed in the #60 catalog, 1916 I believe. Don't see it in any other catalogs that I have information on.

It's not the standard "Extra finish", that's listed also.

Extra finish on stock - $2. London oil finish - $2.75.


Remember the importance of 1916 in history? Who were our primary allies? And the bad guys? Brings up a bunch of trivia for another post/thread...


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The inflation calculator shows:

1915 to 2019...

$15 = $382

$235 = $5987


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Originally Posted by Savageupnorth
$235 for a 22 rifle in 1915 is quite the price, so probably reflects extra labor in London finish and other add ons. A plain model 1914 was a lot less in 1915. What would $235 be in 2019 dollars?


Looks like it would be $5,987.75 in 2019


Edit: didn't see ricks post

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I recall back in the 60's, maybe into the early 70's, the Herter catalog store out of Waseca, Minn (for those of you who know what I'm referring to), used to sell some gun stock finish that they referred to be like 'London Oil Finish'! Loved that place, used to pour over a new catalog every year when my Dad would get one, would about wear it out until a new one came.Thought they were the "bees-nee's"! By the time I reached early 20's, some friends and I used to make the 100 mile trip straight north of our town to Herters in Waseca. Was always a fun and interesting Saturday trip! Bought several of the gunstock refinish kits from Herters back then, but can't recall if any of them were of the London variety, but they did a nice job on wood stocks.

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Gunmaking firms had their own version of the finish. In short a look at Dunlap's book gives a few. JMO

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Ran across this last night.

Col. Townsend Whelen in his "The American Rifle", published 1918:

Quote
The ordinary stock on the straight American rifle is not polished. It is simply varnished. Some high-grade stocks are likewise varnished with a glass-like finish. A varnished stock is an abomination. It looks well when new, but a few weeks of field service covers it with scratches which cannot be obliterated by any amount of rubbing with oil. And when the varnish is worn off such a stock it absorbs water and warps badly. The best stocks are finished or polished simply by repeated rubbings in of raw linseed oil, this finish being given the trade name of "dull London oil finish." Well done in this manner, the stock shows its grain beautifully, has a dull, rich, velvet-like surface which persists, resists dampness splendidly, and if it becomes scratched the scratches can be almost entirely obliterated by a rubbing with raw linseed oil. This is the finish which all stocks and forearms should have.


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Griffin and Howe currently offer their custom rifles with a "hand rubbed London oil finish". I suppose they may be unlikely to reveal what that actually entails...

http://griffinhowe.com/custom-rifle/

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Originally Posted by Calhoun
Ran across this last night.

Col. Townsend Whelen in his "The American Rifle", published 1918:

Quote
The ordinary stock on the straight American rifle is not polished. It is simply varnished. Some high-grade stocks are likewise varnished with a glass-like finish. A varnished stock is an abomination. It looks well when new, but a few weeks of field service covers it with scratches which cannot be obliterated by any amount of rubbing with oil. And when the varnish is worn off such a stock it absorbs water and warps badly. The best stocks are finished or polished simply by repeated rubbings in of raw linseed oil, this finish being given the trade name of "dull London oil finish." Well done in this manner, the stock shows its grain beautifully, has a dull, rich, velvet-like surface which persists, resists dampness splendidly, and if it becomes scratched the scratches can be almost entirely obliterated by a rubbing with raw linseed oil. This is the finish which all stocks and forearms should have.



Right there is where I take exception to the good Colonel's advise. If you rub raw linseed oil into wood it takes forever and a day to dry. After a hellacious long time to achieve a decent finish comprised of many coats of the stuff and waiting for each successive coat to dry, what you end up with is two things: a dark as hell stock whose grain can barely be seen (think all those old milsurp rifles with their dark almost black stocks), and a stock that possesses almost zero protection against water fenestration (no that's not a typo). I bet he wrote that because he lived and breathed military rifle lore and maintenance. The Army didn't care about stock finishing too much. They went with the very cheapest method, oil, to save money per unit not because it was the best protection. What did they care if a stock crapped out, they would just slap another one on and send the rifle on its way back into service.

Varnish (and a bunch of other barrier finishes) offers your best shot at protection against moisture. Period. I maintain that minor scratches in a varnish finish are easier to fix than in an oil finish - you're merely addressing the varnish and not disturbing the wood underneath it, whereas with an oil finish you're actually disturbing the wood surface further with your ministrations. And no amount of rubbing a scratch in an oil finish with more oil is going to make it disappear, you'll end up with a dark line/scratch - you have to sand away the scratch and blend in the oil to match the rest of the finish. No small task, and certainly no easier to deal with than varnish (and you'll end up with a shallow depression where you sanded, such that can be seen in the right light at the right angle).


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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
water fenestration... ministrations.


Jeezus man, slow down, we're just a ditch digger here.


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Whether it's good protection or bad protection is a good discussion.. I'm more curious on what exactly Savage meant by "London Oil Finish" in 1916 when they list it in their catalog. Col. Whelen's book in 1918 is pretty close in time to that.

Would this what you'd expect a linseed oil finish to look like from then? It's the P.J. Noel 22 that Rick found pictures of which is described as having a London oil finish.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Calhoun; 02/22/21.

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At the end of the day, "London oil finish" is a look, not a process. That "look" can be achieved a whole lot of ways, all of which entail more labor than that needed for a quick and dirty utilitarian factory finish. I doubt we'll ever know how Savage achieved it- any guesses are just that, and can be as right as the next guy's.


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I have a recipe in an old gunsmithing book from the early 1900s. I can't remember which one but the book lists a london oil finish recipe that has lindseed oil, alkanet root, turpentine, venitian turpentine and some sort of wax boiled together. It may have other ingredients in it but those are what I remember. I may look through my books to see if I can find it. It also said the stock with stained with alkanet stain first and the alkanet in the finish was for tint. I'm pretty sure it was sort of a generic term and manufacturers had their own recipes.

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And all this time I thought London Oil was something you wore under the Renaissance Wax. Whoda thunk it?


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Only if you're a Man About Town in Picadilly Circus!


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All this talk of finishes and filling pores, but most of the Savage stocks we love had open pores, am I right?


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