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Reading comments on this provokes a few thoughts. I doubt anyone knows the ratio of shots to kills on the battle field, regardless of which war we are talking about. Stuff happens, equipment and tactics change. Case in point is found in the introduction of automatic and semi-automatic weapons on the battlefield. One of the advantages our troops had in WW2 was the Garand which was deployed against enemies using bolt action guns. Enemy forces spent more time ducking than our lads did, and died far more frequently.

Vietnam came along and brought with it the reintroduction of the Gatling style guns, using both small arms ammo and cannon ammo. To correct a misconception earlier, the USAF and USMC miniguns fired 6K rounds per minute to the best of my knowledge and the Army guns had selective fire at 2K and 4K rpm. We rarely used the 2K option as it tended to jam the feeder delinker fairly often. Mentioned tactics earlier, and to illustrate that we often did "recon by fire" with the choppers, sole purpose being to provoke the enemy into returning fire. It worked fairly well and we always had them outgunned. How many did we kill? Nobody really knows and that is a hard fact. I shot a lot of ammo over there and most days don't know that I killed anyone. OTOH, I zipped 3 with one pull of the trigger one day, that with a 20 round mag. Had a door gunner that was a bit of a sniper with the M60 that nailed a dozen with less than 50 rounds. So what's the ratio? WGAF? You divide all the known enemy casualties by all the rounds manufactured, differentiate those killed by small arms fire from those splattered by HE or nape delivered in all manner of forms, and on the best of days you're guessing about the whole thing.

As too cowboys not being good shots in general, I see nothing unexpected in that judgement and despite the lack of spurs and saddles, the average gun owner these days can't shoot worth a damn. I've been seeing that truth for the last 40 years of so at various ranges and afield from Georgia to the Florida Keys. I see youngsters with ARs that can't hit the paper at 50 yards with monotonous regularity. Some are so profoundly ignorant about every aspect it is fairly easy to intervene and put a smile on their mug. Show them how to get the gun on target, how to hold it, squeeze it and so forth. They discover that Hollywood really is a load of buffalo chips. I see oldsters with the same ignorance as well, albeit much more rarely.

Precision shooting is not instinctive, most if not all of you wankers know that. If you run across a dummy that will let you help them out, do that and perhaps you'll both feel better for the ride home.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Good writer! He uses magnet words and hot button assertions to makes an interesting article out of totally mundane and boringly normal information.

Had he written that the average gun owner is not a great shot, who would read it? laugh Make it cowboys and quote some famous historical figures and this article flies well, even though the quotations merely repeat the obvious. The anecdotes are fun to read.

But sluiced throughout are words and phrases like: “average”... “generally speaking”..."by and large”... “few”...”many good shots among tens of thousands of cowboys.”

So most cowboys were not great shots but a few of them were. Wow. whistle

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I believe part of the myth of the fast draw duel in the street (did this begin with the "Dime Novels" and "Penny Dreadfuls" of the 1870's?) owes its origin to the very real ritual of dueling and how widespread it had been a generation earlier.

Sometimes when reading early Texas History it seems we lost about as many guys to them offing each other in duels as we did to the Indians.

Earlier than that, the famous Andrew Jackson vs Charles Dickinson duel, 1806. By that point Charles Dickinson, age 26, is reputed to have killed TWENTY SIX men in formal duels. He would badger his victims into challenging him so, as the challenged party, getting to choose the weapons; his own .70 cal pistols. He was a fast and precise shot who always shot his opponent in the heart, dropping him instantly.

After being obliged by Dickinson's public comments to challenge him to a duel, Jackson faced a dilemma, he knew he was neither faster nor more accurate than Dickinson. Travelling 300 miles to fight the duel in Kentucky (where it was still legal), Dickinson, a sort of dark celebrity, was giving shooting demonstrations to crowds of spectators.

This is when Jackson came up with the subterfuge of wearing an over-sized coat and contorting his body inside it to move his heart a precious couple of inches away from where Dickinson would expect it to be. It worked; Dickinson's .70 cal ball barely missed Jackson's heart tho he carried it painfully the rest of his life. If Jackson really did cheat by recocking his pistol after a misfire, perhaps he can be forgiven for that in as much as for all Jackson knew at that moment he was going to die too.

Anyhow Charles Dickinson a 26 year old psychopath and bully who had killed a man for every year of his age, a dead shot and a fast one. Fits the gunfighter myth perfectly but 70 years too soon.


"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Cheyenne fires off the top of the holster as soon as it's clear. Tell me the last time you saw him miss. Rex Applegate's Army students use Dan Troop's quick crouch. Dillon isn't the quickest, but keeps a cool head and hits center. And Hoppy, he waits 'till he knows the play and then just chops them down right and left.

You guys read too many articles. There's always someone around trying to make you forget what you know.

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Had a meeting and lunch today with an old friend who was a surgeon in a small town hospital in western Nebraska. The topic of guns came up and he mentioned that he’d had conversations with some of the trauma surgeons in Omaha - for some reason both of the trauma centers here in town are located in the rougher areas - he told me the local trauma surgeons were concerned about dealing with gunshot wounds. When the local Drs asked him about his advice he answered that he’d really never had much experience with such things. He said that most of the gunshot victims he’d seen were DOA. He said the folks in his area knew how to use guns and had guns of adequate size to resolve the matter quickly. When a shooting victim arrived at the ER they were beyond any help he could provide.


“My horn is full and my pouch is stocked with ball and patch. There is a new, sharp flint in my lock and my rifle and I are ready. It is sighted true and my eyes can still aim.”
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You guys who are competent with a pistol - how many rounds have you shot in practice? How many hours have you spent shooting? How good are the sights on your guns? Very few REAL cowboys had the time or the money to shoot enough to get good. Many carried a gun with very little idea about how to use it. Their job was cattle, not gun fighting.


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
You guys who are competent with a pistol - how many rounds have you shot in practice? How many hours have you spent shooting? How good are the sights on your guns? Very few REAL cowboys had the time or the money to shoot enough to get good. Many carried a gun with very little idea about how to use it. Their job was cattle, not gun fighting.


PREZACTLY!

The cowhands didn’t have local IDPA Matches to shoot or compete in like we do. Or SASS Cowboy Matches. 🤠

Last edited by chlinstructor; 12/04/19.

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John Slaughter was pretty good. He was a stone killer I think. He had an SAA, a Henry rifle and a winchester lever action shotgun (for hunting AND law-enforcement).

Jeff Milton was a good shot, but not a cowboy.


Originally Posted by jorgeI
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
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IIRC, Tom Horn wasnt a pistolero - he did his kiliLng with a rifle. That disqulAifies him as a 'GUNMAN" -of the short variety, anyway.


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not all. Elmer Keith was a cowboy. Some of the deadliest of the law men had punched cows at one time, too. Ammo, other than .22lr, was too expensive for anyone who did not cast bullets and reload, and nobody had brains enough to use any sort of ear protection. You wont see anyone doing El presidente's worth a hoot without ear protection, today, either.

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Originally Posted by chlinstructor
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
You guys who are competent with a pistol - how many rounds have you shot in practice? How many hours have you spent shooting? How good are the sights on your guns? Very few REAL cowboys had the time or the money to shoot enough to get good. Many carried a gun with very little idea about how to use it. Their job was cattle, not gun fighting.


PREZACTLY!

The cowhands didn’t have local IDPA Matches to shoot or compete in like we do. Or SASS Cowboy Matches. 🤠



Yeah. Gun hands and Cattle hands.


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"Print the legend".


These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
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you can learn a lot from dryfire, IF you have the self discipline. You can learn a lot more with airsoft and .177 pellets, too. But all of that is still sadly lacking in 90+ % of shooters today and was non-existent in cowboy days. Btw, it's a crock that shooting is a "perishable skill". Once you get truly good, you can go for decades without touching a gun and still beat 90% of shooters. If you can dryfire, use airsoft and .177, and fire 500 rds a year each thru rifle and pistol, you'll still be able to beat 99%. I know this for a personal fact.

Last edited by satir; 12/05/19.
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Originally Posted by satir
you can learn a lot from dryfire, IF you have the self discipline. You can learn a lot more with airsoft and .177 pellets, too. But all of that is still sadly lacking in 90+ % of shooters today and was non-existent in cowboy days. Btw, it's a crock that shooting is a "perishable skill". Once you get truly good, you can go for decades without touching a gun and still beat 90% of shooters. If you can dryfire, use airsoft and .177, and fire 500 rds a year each thru rifle and pistol, you'll still be able to beat 99%. I know this for a personal fact.

I agree with this.

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I'm thinking Elmer Keith was a pretty good shot.


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At the OK Corral, about 30 shots were fired, 2 men were killed and 3 wounded IIRC. They were as close as 6' apart. That's a lot of lead in a very tight spot yet only 2 died. That's not the best shooting I've ever heard of.


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No mention of all the surplus cap and ball, rifle muskets, muzzle loaders. A lot of us are happily using guns 50 to 100 years old.

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Originally Posted by z1r
Originally Posted by saddlesore
Why would anyone think a cowboy who spent all his days working cows would be proficient with handguns? Most full time ACTUAL cowboys carried side arms to shoot a horse that he has been hung up on and being drug,or one with a broken leg, or the occasional cow that had to be put down,o r similar reason. All the remainders were a cowboy in name only. Sort of like today


Similarly, today, most folks in LE can't shoot worth a darn. The departments rarely dole out more ammo than is needed for qualifying. Most I know in LE rarely shoot on their own except immediately preceding their qualifications. There are exceptions of course.



It always amazed me how many deputies I worked with were NOT gun people! There are many that ONLY fired their weapons on qualification days and most couldn't even field strip for cleaning.

We were issued 50rds of handgun and 40rds of rifle/month and maybe 10% of us actually took advantage. I tried to have a "Range Day" at least once a month on a day off and I would often have our private range all to myself!

I took it very seriously, however not many do not!

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I used to watch the show "cops" and could hardly believe how many officers, especially from the eastern areas didn't know how to clear a recovered weapon.


















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