Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Thermal binoculars/monocular for daytime use

What is the state of the art in thermal imaging daytime use, and what is the longest practical range that live animals can be detected, not necessarily identified? I have little interest in a thermal rifle scope, would prefer binoculars.

Is the Leupold monocular that claims detection to 750 yards as good as it claims? Does it work across forested canyons or only on open ground? Anyone own one of those, or has used one, who can comment?

bump for a good question about a neat technology

Anything thermal that works to a given standard at night, works the same in the daytime. Temperatures and humidity are the variables they deal with, not light. Vegetation can make their detection degrade, but in open hardwoods and farm fields, most decent stuff will detect well past 500, and past 1k isn’t rare. Only the better commercial models will allow positive ID past 200 or so, for a new user. Time on the scope can enable you to positive ID much farther, due to understanding how certain emitters appears and their movements in the thermal. These are just general replies to your general question. I’m no expert on various models, latest and greatest. I spend a lot of time on scope with some that aren’t commonly available.

I’ve had the first generation Leupold LTO tracker for about two years. I’ve have found, for me, it’s most useful after my binocs give up at dark to ensure there are no deer still in the food plots before I pack up and slip out. I haven’t had to use it for finding a downed deer....yet.

I’ve been able to see deer in a field out to 300 yards or so; they’ve just light dots but you can see them moving. I haven’t had the chance to check farther than that.

Thanks for the informative replies. Wish I could try out the Leupold. A son and I are thinking of splitting the cost of a thermal device. Not sure that the tech development and price point have reached our entry level yet.

We have two very specific applications for it, both in daylight. Our region never gets really hot weather, and normally there is a large difference in temperature between any mammal and air temp.

navlav8r, would love to hear a report if you take your Leupold out and try for distance. Any chance of looking at a deer or maybe a cow or horse at 400 to 800 yards this afternoon? Am interested in the distance at which it no longer detects/shows life warmth. Comparing In the open and behind a thin screen of leaves/brush would be icing on the test!!

hh4whiskey, good info! Wish I could try some of your toys.

FWIW, most commercial thermal sights work just fine as monoculars, off of a weapon. At least you have the option to shoot with it, if you want. There are $2k sights right now that are good enough for most needs, and that will detect way on out there. In daytime (or night), temperature doesn’t cut down detection, it just increases clutter.....in 98 degree sunshine, you still ‘detect’ the animal....you just detect all the 98 degree rocks, trees, and shrubs around them, so it’s easier to miss them without movement at longer ranges, since they don’t ‘pop’ as much alone. Most current imagers have various settings to overcome various conditions. Raccoons, possums, and armadillos emit like they’re twice as big as they really are, and will fool you for small hogs past 200. Range estimation and size estimates can get tricky in thermals. White hot spots game and keeps screen brightness down better. Black hot shoes sharper contrast on most.

I’ll see if I can’t figure out a way to check it at longer ranges than 300 yds.

Thanks. Will keep an eye on this thread.

I've been using Pulsar thermal riflescopes for over a year and am very satisfied with them. I have used the 320 core and the 640 core units; and for the money and how I use mine the 320 core works just fine.
Most of the time I just use the scope off the rifle for checking out things at night around the house Apex38.
Since then they have came out with the Thermion rifle scope which is based off a 30mm scope tube and looks like a conventional scope.

For a detection unit you might want to check out the Pulsars; they have a handheld monocular and binos.
Also FLIR has the little Scout units and more expensive monoculars.

Welcome to the Fire, cowdog.

DF

Thank you.

Yes, cowdog6, welcome to the 'fire and thanks for the info. I looked up the Pulsar 320 scope. Nice.

Two YouTube owners of the Leupold LTO report that 300 yards is max for detecting a deer sized animal, and detection erodes quickly for anything past 100 yards. The FLIR Scout is good to about 100 yards on a dog, 150 on a warm vehicle. Need to do more research on Pulsar products. A Pulsar Thermion scope claims detection to 2000 yards, for well over 3 grand.

I'm not ready to spend 3K on this and so had hopes for the Leupold.

Perhaps a better question for me to pose is: “How much do I need to spend to buy a thermal imager that consistently detects a deer sized animal at 800 yards? I'd settle for 600.

I'm afraid that you're probably going to have to save around $3K to start, in order to get that kind of range.
But the good news at that price is that your detection can be over 1000 yds. - 1800 yds.
Its expensive to play in the dark; that's just a cold hard fact. As they say; buy once, cry once.

Friend of mine has a 640 core FLIR 75mm scope and he has gotten detection at about a mile out with it on good nights. All he saw was a white hot dot though; and had no idea what it was. And that thing can be fine tuned to almost any situation.

My Apex XP38 (320 core) easily gets detection at 700 yds. (open terrain; if something is behind a tree, in a bush, or limbs you only see what shows through {think of sunlight through tree canopy} even up close). Its a simpler scope; plenty of ways to tune it; but white hot or black hot only. The newer stuff is starting to offer color pallets (which may or may not be helpful; I have used a sepia selection {browns} and it did well for the conditions that night}).
I'm amazed that I can actually see the moon with this thing. And aircraft with their contrails and the cloud cover pattern at night.
I can see little birds and mice. I was watching bats fly around last night. I've watched squirrels chase each other on a fence line on a pitch dark moonless night. And crazy as it is, I have seen moths or other insects flying in the dark also. Also my cat died and I started to have a mouse problem; yeah I got out the thermal - that's another story. I noticed that I can see the 2x4 framing through the sheet rock also as well as air leakage from kitchen and dryer vents. You can also see footprints if they are fresh. And where the dog has been laying out in the yard or doorstep.
And this being pretty much an entry level thermal; I can still see muscle tone on the animals, distinguishing a shoulder from a torso.

My LGS owner can afford any NV device he wants. He hog hunts a lot and guides hunts several times a week at night. He chooses to use an Apex38 most of the time. And he tests other units that he gets in also. He and his friends drive around using PVS-15s while scouting for hogs.
He's used it on numerous guns up to .338 Lapua out to over 600 yds at night with multiple kills with video to back it up.
He's got one video of a 12 y/o girl getting a twofer at 200 yds with it. She shot one just as it was getting into the tree line and as you watch the sounder run; there was another pig that ran behind her intended target just as she pulled the trigger. Crazy cool.
He wants his customers to be happy about their purchase.

So as about 6 months ago he uses a Pulsar Helion for detection (smaller lighter weight for scanning); but says that the Apex XP38 actually detects better, especially in fog. He says that Pulsar has tuned their stuff (however they do it) and they are probably one of the best that do better in light fog conditions.
I think the Thermion series is taking over the Apex series (iirc being discontinued).
He suggests nothing smaller than a 38mm lens; iirc there were issues with the smaller <30mm scopes.
He suggested 320 core for hunting and not paying extra for the 640 core unless you wanted to do higher quality video.
He really likes Pulsar gear, but has good things to say about THOR also (now that they have some new management); and he said nothing beats the Trijicon REAP-IR at this time (but you pay a premium price for it also). He's not a big fan of FLIR.
And he'll let you compare stuff against each other; and take the time to show you how this stuff works.

I'm still a novice at this stuff and am still learning. But I've found that what my LGS owner says to be right on the money.
This probably doesn't answer your question about a detection thermal; but may give you a short course on the practical end.
All in all it is expensive; but yeah I think its worth it.
I use it regularly; pretty much if I go out at night for whatever; I usually carry it with me just to see what is out and about.

Just texted my LGS guy and asked what he recommends for your question.
He suggests a Pulsar Helion or one of the Pulsar Trail scope models at this time.

Correction I have an Apex XQ38 using a 384 core.
Pulsar uses a 384 core on the base model as opposed to a 320 core. Higher end models use a 640 core.
Pulsar refresh rate is 50 Hz; where other brands may use 30Hz or 60Hz.

And back to the OP question; check out the FLIR Scout series for detection (can't be mounted to a firearm and iirc no reticles).
That may get you into some shorter range thermal for $500 - $1500.

I have two Trail XQ38's and I use them all the time. It is amazing the things I can see during the day with them. I have spotted deer in brush/grass/etc with the thermal 400yds+ away with the thermal and then used my binos to check them out and have a hell of a time seeing where they are! I have tried the Helion XP28 but didn't like it as much as my trails. The eyepiece was too small for my liking, so I returned it and bought another Trail. I was not impressed with the different color pallettes of the Helion either and found myself using the black or white hot only. The Trail doesn't have the different color pallettes...it is white or black hot. The two major difference between the Apex and Trail is the battery setup and the Trail has the option of taking pics and recording videos internally. The battery life on the Trail is very very good. The new Thermion scope is replacing the Trail models that do not have the LRF sometime after the first of the year. The only Trails that Pulsar will be carrying are the ones with LRF which adds an extra $500. The XP models use the 640x480 sensor and the XQ models use the 384x288 sensor...which adds an extra $1,000+ dollars to the price of the XP models which in my opinion is not worth it.

If you could find a good deal an Apex XQ38 or Trail XQ38, I would jump on it. That way you could always mount it on a gun if you ever wanted to do so.

Wow! Excellent info. Thank you each.

Yep, looks like 3 grand is the threshold for what I really want, might manage or get close for a thousand less.

Okanagan, honestly I don't think you would be happy with the Leupold. I have never used one but have read enough about them. I have no problem Id'ing deer at 700-800yds with my Trails especially in the winter when there is no humidity. 400yds is a chip shot with my Trails.
You might want to check out the PRG Python TS35 micro...Bruce at Night nision universe has them on sale right now and guys say they are a solid unit.
What kind of distances are you looking at for using thermal?

Where else ya gonna get first hand info like this.

Thanks a bunch. Keep it coming.

I find NV stuff complicated and you just don’t see side by side, detailed comparisons to this extent.

DF