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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard


According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?


If that was what the robbers were doing there would have been dead bodies strewn all along the 25 miles they covered while being chased..

Sounds really unlikely....

The cops pinned them in a corner and they attempted to shoot their way out.

There is a time to back off when obvious consequences just aren't worth it.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by satir
the UPS driver had many opportunties to make a CCW draw and kill them both. When you default on your responsibilities to yourself and society, it can cost you dearly.


Does UPS allow its drivers to carry?

I am thinking F' no!


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Let me post again what was posted earlier. These are the words of a cop on scene.

"When the UPS truck got stopped in traffic, both perps began firing indiscriminately,"

Let's assume that is a fact. At that point, what would you have the cops do?

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by satir
the UPS driver had many opportunties to make a CCW draw and kill them both. When you default on your responsibilities to yourself and society, it can cost you dearly.


Does UPS allow its drivers to carry?


NO.

Neither does FedEx.

I'm guessing the USPS guys are also sitting ducks.

Amazon Drivers - probably not.

I know you're not allowed to carry with Uber...

And the list goes on and on...

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At that point, what would you have the cops do?


maybe it shouldn't have got to that point


Last edited by KFWA; 12/06/19.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
At that point, what would you have the cops do?


How about disciplined and accurate return fire. Did you see the video? there are bullets flying everywhere and ESPECIALLY if the poor guy got killed by police fire.


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Originally Posted by JeffA
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard


According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?


If that was what the robbers were doing there would have been dead bodies strewn all along the 25 miles they covered while being chased..

Sounds really unlikely....

The cops pinned them in a corner and they attempted to shoot their way out.

There is a time to back off when obvious consequences just aren't worth it.


Let's say they back off the UPS truck once it starts heading into heavy traffic. The perps decide they need better wheels than the UPS truck. They kill the driver then kill a family in an SUV and take it over. Now we still have 2 armed thugs, willing to kill on the run.

Nobody would criticize the cops at this point right? Nobody would be calling them donut eating pussies afraid to do their jobs right? Nobody would pin the deaths of the innocents on the cops right?

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Originally Posted by JeffA
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard

The cops were NOT using human shields. They were using the vehicles as cover.


That's not what it looks like at the 20 second mark in this video...but just for a moment...

Either way, they were using vehicles full of random innocent citizens.





Yeah, no, not by any stretch was that using a human as a shield.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by JeffA
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard


According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?


If that was what the robbers were doing there would have been dead bodies strewn all along the 25 miles they covered while being chased..

Sounds really unlikely....

The cops pinned them in a corner and they attempted to shoot their way out.

There is a time to back off when obvious consequences just aren't worth it.


Let's say they back off the UPS truck once it starts heading into heavy traffic. The perps decide they need better wheels than the UPS truck. They kill the driver then kill a family in an SUV and take it over. Now we still have 2 armed thugs, willing to kill on the run.

Nobody would criticize the cops at this point right? Nobody would be calling them donut eating pussies afraid to do their jobs right? Nobody would pin the deaths of the innocents on the cops right?



you can play alot of hypothetical situations, the UPS family and the family of the driver that was shot, aren't interested in hearing them.

If they are so quick to kill, why didn't they just shoot the UPS driver in the head when they took his truck? It was a hostage situation that turned deadly when the criminals were backed into a corner.

Last edited by KFWA; 12/06/19.

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A friend of mine works for one of the delivery companies. In the last 3 months 3 of his fellow drivers had their trucks hijacked, they just threw them the keys. My friend, has been robbed at gunpoint twice in "bad neighborhoods" for the boxes in his hands. Here ya go...


We don't have a cop problem, they clean up the messes 99% of the time. I have no expert opinion on how that mess should have been handled, my prayers go out to all the families impacted by that mess.


What we really have is a CRIME PROBLEM in this country and it starts with our government and all the politically correct garbage that is constricting us all, and rolls down hill from there!

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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
At that point, what would you have the cops do?


How about disciplined and accurate return fire. Did you see the video? there are bullets flying everywhere and ESPECIALLY if the poor guy got killed by police fire.



From their vehicles right? Because we have people criticizing the cops for using civilian cars for cover as they moved in for a better shot.

I'll float this out there too. I know everyone on this forum is steely cool under fire and can shoot dime size groups at 50 yards with a Glock 42. The reality is that most humans don't do that well under stress.

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Originally Posted by KFWA
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by JeffA
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard


According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?


If that was what the robbers were doing there would have been dead bodies strewn all along the 25 miles they covered while being chased..

Sounds really unlikely....

The cops pinned them in a corner and they attempted to shoot their way out.

There is a time to back off when obvious consequences just aren't worth it.


Let's say they back off the UPS truck once it starts heading into heavy traffic. The perps decide they need better wheels than the UPS truck. They kill the driver then kill a family in an SUV and take it over. Now we still have 2 armed thugs, willing to kill on the run.

Nobody would criticize the cops at this point right? Nobody would be calling them donut eating pussies afraid to do their jobs right? Nobody would pin the deaths of the innocents on the cops right?



you can play alot of hypothetical situations, the UPS family and the family of the driver that was shot, aren't interested in hearing them.

If they are so quick to kill, why didn't they just shoot the UPS driver in the head when they took his truck? It was a hostage situation that turned deadly when the criminals were backed into a corner.


For the love of ffugk, did you really just ask why a living hostage has more value to a bad guy than a dead person does?

Are you advocating that officers not consider the "what ifs" in making a decision on whether or not to engage?

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Originally Posted by 4winds
A friend of mine works for one of the delivery companies. In the last 3 months 3 of his fellow drivers had their trucks hijacked, they just threw them the keys. My friend, has been robbed at gunpoint twice in "bad neighborhoods" for the boxes in his hands. Here ya go...


We don't have a cop problem, they clean up the messes 99% of the time. I have no expert opinion on how that mess should have been handled, my prayers go out to all the families impacted by that mess.


What we really have is a CRIME PROBLEM in this country and it starts with our government and all the politically correct garbage that is constricting us all, and rolls down hill from there!



You bring up a good point. I'd bet anyone $100 that when we learn of the criminal histories of these perps we will learn that if sentenced to the fullest, they would still be in jail for previous crimes.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by JeffA
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard


According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?


If that was what the robbers were doing there would have been dead bodies strewn all along the 25 miles they covered while being chased..

Sounds really unlikely....

The cops pinned them in a corner and they attempted to shoot their way out.

There is a time to back off when obvious consequences just aren't worth it.


Let's say they back off the UPS truck once it starts heading into heavy traffic. The perps decide they need better wheels than the UPS truck. They kill the driver then kill a family in an SUV and take it over. Now we still have 2 armed thugs, willing to kill on the run.

Nobody would criticize the cops at this point right? Nobody would be calling them donut eating pussies afraid to do their jobs right? Nobody would pin the deaths of the innocents on the cops right?



You can't divert this with a string of "what if's"

What happened is obvious.

They shouldn't have been pushed into a corner where they had no way out especially since the cops knew they were willing to shoot there way through a hard spot.

Too many cops from surrounding agency's involved and the situation went outta control, probably couldn't have been stopped once it was started even if they wanted to.

I suppose to moral of the story could be, don't let your situations spiral out of control.

That's pretty much the basic #1 rule in any sort of disaster response training. This is where they failed.

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you're the one pushing the "shooting indiscriminately" agenda.The cops show up the first thing they do is shoot their hostage and start spraying people who pose no threat to them?

stay consistent

and yes I am absolutely advocating that officers consider the "what ifs" in making a decision to engage or not to engage...wtf do you think we are talking about here?

engaging in a gunfight surrounded by innocent bystanders sitting in their cars in a crossfire situation


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Originally Posted by KFWA
Quote
At that point, what would you have the cops do?


maybe it shouldn't have got to that point




There's certainly a discussion to be had there. And I know without a doubt in the extensive reviews this undergoes that will be discussed.

You have the value of hindsight. With that, what would you do if you were calling the shots? Start from the point that you knew armed robbers had taken a UPS driver hostage and were fleeing in his truck. As you discuss what you would do, discuss the potential negative consequences of your actions and inactions.

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Obviously that can and has happened many places in the nation but Florida is just predisposed for that sort of craziness.

If I hear/see a crazy news story, immediately Florida is my first thought and often that is accurate.

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speaking of what ifs

I wonder if there was a bomb in that truck instead of firearms, would the police be so willing to chase it into a rush hour traffic and engage the people with a hostage?


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I count over 70 law enforcement officers in this video from the 4:20 to 4:50 time mark.

That's what went wrong.. too many Indians and not enough chiefs.


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