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Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: PaulBarnard] #14342915 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
I can't help but wonder how the conversation will change if it is learned that the robbers killed the UPS driver and the motorist.


I cant help but wonder if the trigger happy meat heads hadnt of been 70+ deep chasing the robbers into bumper to bumper traffic if the innocent deaths wouldnt have happened...

Why are you being so defensive for others obvious negligence? Your not going to change the minds of the majority, we saw what we saw....

300 BP

Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: PaulBarnard] #14342922 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard

I didn't realize that we had already learned that it was the cops who fired the fatal shot into the UPS driver. The driver's brother must be one hell of a negotiator if he is willing to negotiate with armed robbers who are shooting at him.


All debate aside, if you want to be more informed in these situations.
Once a YT video is posted you can "rip it" or download it into your computer via any "free YT downloader".

Once you have a copy of a video you can view it a frame at a time in a much larger format.

A lot becomes obvious at that point.

I think that is why many are skipping right past the who done it debate..



Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: PaulBarnard] #14342932 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by MadMooner
Police using other citizens as shields is a horrible look.




I didn't see that happen. I did see them using the vehicles for cover. If I am in a situation where I am going to have to try to take out someone shooting at me or others and my choices are standing in the open or using the nearest vehicle, I am going to use the nearest vehicle. For me it would be reflexive.


So if a car is full of innocent folks you call it the car you are using and no longer the people inside it?

You don't have a valid argument there...



Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: Ejp1234] #14342950 12/06/19
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JeffA Offline
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Originally Posted by Ejp1234

Why are you being so defensive for others obvious negligence? Your not going to change the minds of the majority, we saw what we saw....


He really is not. He is just creating healthy debate which draws out constructive conversation.

It's not like most here that can't hold decent conversation without name calling and the rest the garbage that often fills pages of these forums.

It's all good....................



Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: JeffA] #14342959 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by JeffA
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by MadMooner
Police using other citizens as shields is a horrible look.




I didn't see that happen. I did see them using the vehicles for cover. If I am in a situation where I am going to have to try to take out someone shooting at me or others and my choices are standing in the open or using the nearest vehicle, I am going to use the nearest vehicle. For me it would be reflexive.


So if a car is full of innocent folks you call it the car you are using and no longer the people inside it?

You don't have a valid argument there...



I am drawing a distinction between a person as a shield and a person in a vehicle being used as cover. There is a difference. Granted, I don't like either one. I can see myself reflexively using the occupied car. I would never use a person as cover and it's not because they make lousy cover.

Alpha

Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: akasparky] #14342960 12/06/19
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Paul, the car used for cover was occupied by innocent citizens. You are essentially drawing fire at innocents.

I get it being reflexive. I wont claim I wouldnt of done the same.

It is horrible looking, regardless.


Deep State Operative and Fluoride sales representative...........
Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: PaulBarnard] #14342976 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by 12344mag
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Come on, you are going to criticize them and all you can offer as an alternative plan of action is "anything but engage them where they did?"

An officer on scene said that when the truck came to a stop the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. You are saying when they did that, the cops should have remained in their cars?



Cops should have never blocked that intersection and used the civilians to make a barricade and once involved in the fight they should have never used a civilian as cover.

I've seen cops block cross traffic for perps to continue through an intersection unheeded by cross traffic and then stop them where things are less likely to involve citizens that's what should have happened here.

There was a bank robbery here local and they let the perps go on down the highway unheeded until they could catch them is a much less populated area, they even blocked on ramps to keep traffic off of the highway. They did a great job an only the perps died when they crashed their vehicle and decided to go out in a blaze of glory.

There's a whole lot of fuqking up in this chase and it's going to get expensive for sure.


It obviously didn't work out this way, but what if the robbers, in the face of overwhelming force, surrendered rather than opened fire at that point. Would we be criticizing the decision to block the intersection?


Yes, dumb move all the way around.


Paul

"I'd rather see a sermon than hear a sermon".... D.A.D.

"Because I'm President and they're not".... DJT

#Walk Away and join the NRA.

molɔ̀ːn labé skýla

Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: JeffA] #14342979 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by JeffA
Originally Posted by Ejp1234

Why are you being so defensive for others obvious negligence? Your not going to change the minds of the majority, we saw what we saw....


He really is not. He is just creating healthy debate which draws out constructive conversation.

It's not like most here that can't hold decent conversation without name calling and the rest the garbage that often fills pages of these forums.

It's all good....................



Jeff, I am encouraged to see you look at it that way. That's really all it is. It's just a horrible outcome to what I see as a no-win situation.

In exploring this with you, we did find common ground. There were an unmanageable number of officers involved. That is going to come up in the incident review. I still don't know what I would do if I were the one person calling all the enforcement shots in this scenario. I do know this. No matter what plan I enacted there's be an internet full of people criticizing me. I also know that no plan would guarantee no collateral loss of life.

Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: PaulBarnard] #14342983 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard


I am drawing a distinction between a person as a shield and a person in a vehicle being used as cover. There is a difference. Granted, I don't like either one. I can see myself reflexively using the occupied car. I would never use a person as cover and it's not because they make lousy cover.


There may be a difference in your mind but the concept will not be shared by many..



Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: Ejp1234] #14342987 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by Ejp1234
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
I can't help but wonder how the conversation will change if it is learned that the robbers killed the UPS driver and the motorist.


I cant help but wonder if the trigger happy meat heads hadnt of been 70+ deep chasing the robbers into bumper to bumper traffic if the innocent deaths wouldnt have happened...

Why are you being so defensive for others obvious negligence? Your not going to change the minds of the majority, we saw what we saw....



I guess you could say I am being defensive. I tend to do that when people will criticize others having never walked in their shoes and will do so without being able to lay out a course of action that would guarantee better results. The outcome was horrible. Do you know that it could have been much worse had other courses of action been taken?

Bravo

Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: PaulBarnard] #14343012 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard


In exploring this with you, we did find common ground. There were an unmanageable number of officers involved. That is going to come up in the incident review. I still don't know what I would do if I were the one person calling all the enforcement shots in this scenario. I do know this. No matter what plan I enacted there's be an internet full of people criticizing me. I also know that no plan would guarantee no collateral loss of life.


The "unmanageable number of officers involved" is key.

But even if that had not been allowed to happen and a single qualified incident commander was running the show with a manageable number of officers there was not enough time when that light changed to red and everyone piled up on each other to have changed the course of events....

Unless a allowable distance to follow had been established.
A distance that the bad guys felt no need to protect themselves from.
A distance where they no longer felt the need to fire upon their pursuers.

The chase lasted 20 to 30 minutes, there was plenty of time to figure that out.

Establishing that single thing could have changed the outcome of this event drastically.



Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: PaulBarnard] #14343025 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
I am going to use the nearest vehicle. For me it would be reflexive.


Good cops are taught not to be reflexive, they are taught to follow training. Reflexes are not always correct.

Fact of the matter is the cops hide behind a civilian for cover and used them as a shield for a clusterfuqk they primarily caused.

There are better ways to do this that have been tried and proven to work. It's going to cost them big on this one.

I'm usually the one getting chewed on for sticking up for the cops but their is nothing that was done right here.


Paul

"I'd rather see a sermon than hear a sermon".... D.A.D.

"Because I'm President and they're not".... DJT

#Walk Away and join the NRA.

molɔ̀ːn labé skýla

Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: akasparky] #14343042 12/06/19
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KFWA Offline
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supposedly this went out and then was taken down

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by KFWA; 12/06/19.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: KFWA] #14343049 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by KFWA
supposedly this went out and then was taken down

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELFTSC2X0AAUwhG?format=jpg[/img]



Lol, not good if true.


Paul

"I'd rather see a sermon than hear a sermon".... D.A.D.

"Because I'm President and they're not".... DJT

#Walk Away and join the NRA.

molɔ̀ːn labé skýla

Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: akasparky] #14343060 12/06/19
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it did go out, I found it cached on google

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: JamesJr] #14343063 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by JamesJr
This was a case of the cops doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. It was absolutely stupid on their part to engage those two perps in a shootout in that situation. It is a wonder there were not more innocent people killed. I hope the family of the UPS driver and the other bystander sue the cops for every penny they are worth.......and then some.



That's the answer, sue everybody and make it right. That sure will cost the cops involved because they will have to pay out of their own pockets. They might even get STARMAN to do the paperwork.

Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: akasparky] #14343065 12/06/19
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We may be a more observed society but we are no longer a censored society......

More on scene cell phone video...



Dad..............


They remind me of blind, enraged oxen being taunted and prodded by the right wing media, frothing and wanting to strike someone, but can't see who's really tormenting them.
Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: akasparky] #14343076 12/06/19
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I have not been able to watch video yet and just a bit a scanning the thread..... The perps, what's known about them?


Critical thinking not needed.

Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: akasparky] #14343077 12/06/19
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What I witnessed on several videos was akin to watching a feeding frenzy of sharks.

If this is the best law enforcement has to offer the public,then they have failed miserably.


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." **Edmund Burke**

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." **Benjamin Franklin**
Re: Hail of Gunfire After Armed Robbery (Uncensored) [Re: PaulBarnard] #14343085 12/06/19
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard



Jeff, I am encouraged to see you look at it that way. That's really all it is. It's just a horrible outcome to what I see as a no-win situation.

In exploring this with you, we did find common ground. There were an unmanageable number of officers involved. That is going to come up in the incident review. I still don't know what I would do if I were the one person calling all the enforcement shots in this scenario. I do know this. No matter what plan I enacted there's be an internet full of people criticizing me. I also know that no plan would guarantee no collateral loss of life.



Paul, don't take this the wrong way, it's not a comment on your posts. You hit the nail on the head in the post I quoted though.



That scene was from 1979-80. One would think the authorities might have learned by now.

It never ceases to amaze me why so many LE resources must show up for every incident, no matter the size. The perception that overwhelming force will rule the day?





Sad day all around.

Geno


The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men.
In it is contentment
In it is death and all you seek
(Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)

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