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Re: 30-30 AI [Re: 260Remguy] #14089737 08/30/19
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wheelerdan Offline
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There is a bout a 7% increase in case capacity between the factory and the AI versions, with a corresponding increase of about 175 FPS in a 20" and at the < 42,000 PSI. Frankly this ain't all that much to get excited about. If, and I say, if most factory ammo is lowded in 35,000 PSI range, loading to full SAMMI spec, for the parent cartridge, would do just as much. (There is no SAMMI spec for the AI rounds, which have not become factory rounds.

The puts the .30/30 AI in the middle of the AI cartridges for performance upgrade. The 25/35 and 30/40 Krag are near the top of the heep and the .270/280 near the very bottom.

The Steven 325 might, maybe be one of the weaker bolt guns. Donno. But I believe it is plenty adequate for the .30/30 hand loaded to 42,000 PSI, which is the SAMMI spec. I am guessing I will get more bank for the buck from this action because i can shoot pointed bullets than from the AI conversion. If the AI conversion really does boost velocity 7% and I shoot pointed bullets, then trajectory and down range energy should jump accordingly.

The 325 is a fun gun. It will cost me very little to run a reamer into her to complete these test. The real fun for me is to tinker with the process and report the findings to your guys.

Right here right now, I will speculate this rifle will delivery about 2575 fps with 150 grain pointed bullets in AI format. Not shabby , but hardly remarkable.

BP-B2

Re: 30-30 AI [Re: shaman] #14089810 08/30/19
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CDNN has the B-Square side-mount on sale for $10, their part number BSQ14600.

www.cdnnsports.com

Re: 30-30 AI [Re: shaman] #14090805 08/31/19
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The first article I am aware of on the .30-30 Ackley Improved is in the Robert Hutton series from Guns & Ammo. Hutton was searching for the ideal 300 Meter cartridge for International shooting. The series of tests involved just about every factory cartridge and wildcat that could have been thought of at the time.
PO made up the rifle, an FN Mauser with 26” barrel. He also chambered a 20” Model 94 for the cartridge.
I believe Dr. Henry Stebbins beat Hutton to print by mentioning the Ackley .30-30 Improved in his book on Rifles.

The article by Hutton: A New Look At The .30-30 was in the May 1961 issue of Guns & Ammo.
The goal of a 180 grain bullet at 3,000 fps was not achieved.
In the bolt action rifle it was found that accuracy improved as velocity increased right up to the point of primer popping.
Hutton commented that he shot his smallest ever .30 caliber groups with the .30-30AI. Also the smallest .30 caliber group he had ever seen. The smallest being 5 shots in ¾” using 35.0 grains of IMR 4198 and the Sierra 168 grain International bullet.
Hutton discounted any velocity increase with the Improved cartridge in the lever action rifle and said the advantage of the cartridge in the lever action was improved case life and improved accuracy.

There was at least one Improved .30-30 prior to the Ackley version – this one with a 35 degree shoulder. I have one in my collection and have posted the picture on the Beartooth forum in the past. I have searched quite a bit and have not found an earlier article on Improving the .30-30.


Slim
Re: 30-30 AI [Re: william_iorg] #14090972 08/31/19
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Originally Posted by william_iorg
The first article I am aware of on the .30-30 Ackley Improved is in the Robert Hutton series from Guns & Ammo. Hutton was searching for the ideal 300 Meter cartridge for International shooting. The series of tests involved just about every factory cartridge and wildcat that could have been thought of at the time.
PO made up the rifle, an FN Mauser with 26” barrel. He also chambered a 20” Model 94 for the cartridge.
I believe Dr. Henry Stebbins beat Hutton to print by mentioning the Ackley .30-30 Improved in his book on Rifles.

The article by Hutton: A New Look At The .30-30 was in the May 1961 issue of Guns & Ammo.
The goal of a 180 grain bullet at 3,000 fps was not achieved.
In the bolt action rifle it was found that accuracy improved as velocity increased right up to the point of primer popping.
Hutton commented that he shot his smallest ever .30 caliber groups with the .30-30AI. Also the smallest .30 caliber group he had ever seen. The smallest being 5 shots in ¾” using 35.0 grains of IMR 4198 and the Sierra 168 grain International bullet.
Hutton discounted any velocity increase with the Improved cartridge in the lever action rifle and said the advantage of the cartridge in the lever action was improved case life and improved accuracy.

There was at least one Improved .30-30 prior to the Ackley version – this one with a 35 degree shoulder. I have one in my collection and have posted the picture on the Beartooth forum in the past. I have searched quite a bit and have not found an earlier article on Improving the .30-30.


The Beartooth Bullets site seems to have disappeared, any idea where it went?

Re: 30-30 AI [Re: shaman] #14091275 08/31/19
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william_iorg Offline
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Main page


http://www.beartoothbullets.com

Forum

https://www.shootersforum.com

Go to the last post in this thread for the picture of the two Improved .30-30's. The early one is 22 degrees.


https://www.shootersforum.com/gunsmithing/57521-chamber-reaming.html


Slim
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Re: 30-30 AI [Re: william_iorg] #14091475 08/31/19
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Tech notes appears to be unavailable.

Re: 30-30 AI [Re: shaman] #14094262 09/01/19
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A test I did in 2010:

[Linked Image]

Savage 219L-D single shot break action 30-30
1 in 12" twist
26" long.
7 pound rifle

220 gr HNDY round nose moly W748 2.92" 26" barrel, 30-30
Quickload prediction:
33 gr 51 kpsi 2176 fps
34 gr 56 kpsi 2232 fps
35 gr 62 kpsi 2287 fps
36 gr 68 kpsi 2340 fps
37 gr 75 kpsi 2394 fps
38 gr 83 kpsi 2446 fps brass and primer still look good
39 gr 92 kpsi 2498 fps primer very cratered, case full of powder, ball powder compresses a hair below 2.92"


There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
Re: 30-30 AI [Re: shaman] #14095459 09/02/19
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william_iorg Offline
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Now this is an interesting test. You’re pressure is up in .300 Winchester Magnum territory.
Was this new brass, once fired or used brass?
I would like to have measured the PRE on these cases. .4221” or .4222”? I don’t know if the 219 Savage has an oval cut chamber as the lever action rifles do. The Winchester and Marlin rifles have the rear of the chamber cur oval to facilitate chambering.
Would make for an interesting comparison of the Quick Load estimate and what you might see at the pressure ring.

I believe, based on the estimates I would have stopped at a 35.5 grain charge.
Have you looked at the locking lugs on your rifle. My father had a Savage shotgun similar to your 219. Dad shot this one a lot with various insert barrels. The .45 ACP and .222 Remington being his favorites. Some of his loads left a mark on the locking lugs and he took it to heart – backing off on his experimenting.

Your experiment says a lot for the extractor on the Savage 219.
We have done nothing similar to this with the standard .30-30.
Dad modified a Lyman 311284, 210 grain bullet mold to round nose. This bullet now weighs 215 grains with gas check and lubed. I load it light and 5.8 grains of V.V. N310 will give us 963 fps from the 26” Buffalo Bill Model 94.

The 220 grain Sierra HPBT Match bullet ahead of 26.0 grains of Hodgdon Varget gives us excellent accuracy at 1,829 fps – 1 ¾” at 100 yards if the light is on our back using the Lyman receiver sight. 2” to 2 ½” if the light is not so good. The target is a 3” black rectangle on off white paper with a half round cut in the bottom of the rectangle. Raise the bead up into the half round.

The 220 grain Hornady JRN bullet ahead of 33.0 grain of Hodgdon Varget gives us 2,084 fps with similar accuracy.
Funny how the round nose bullet perfoms better at higher pressure in this Model 94.

Perhaps of interest, the Peters 180 grain factory .30-30 was advertised at 2,120 fps from the 26” in 1940.

You are now in the company of “Three Fingered Phil” Sharpe – “That Old Thutty-Thutty”, American Rifleman, March 1952. A 31” Hi Wall Phil and his friend loaded to above an estimated 60,000 CUP looking for a ½” group from a .30 caliber rifle. They didn’t get their ½” group but they had no brass problems and no sticky extraction.


Slim
Re: 30-30 AI [Re: shaman] #14095762 09/02/19
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Back in 1999 my father [chief engineer of gun and vehicle design at PACAR 1948-1986] was still alive. He and a mechanical engineering professor helped show me how to calculate the strength of my 45/70 handi rifle.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.guns/BlTMnBlXF44
If you hear guys at a gun show talking about the strength of an action, they will say, "It was designed for....", but that belies that a Stevens 410 break action shotgun calculates per me as much stronger than a Sav 110, Win 70, Rem 700, or Mauser 98.

So when I saw the similar to handi rifle, Sav 219L-D, I could see how strong it was. I did not realize what a piece of junk it is. Frank De Haas hated it, and I did too and soon as I took it apart and tried to put the bent sheet metal back together. My opinions on the Sav 219 is the old ones are good. The last ones, the 129L-D are terrible.... but strong.


There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
Re: 30-30 AI [Re: Clarkm] #14103482 09/05/19
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wheelerdan Offline
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William_Iorg,

Was this with the regular or the AI version? I assume AI? Interesting you chose the 220 grain RN bullets. If like other RN they are probably undersized ahead of the channelure. This might help to reduce pressure, but not to the level you are documenting. Whether the 219 is a thing of beauty or not, it must be hell-for-strong, as must the brass.

I am fresh out of 170 gain RN but have a supply of HOR 180 SP bullets which I will try as soon as I get the 325 rifle up and running as an AI.

I hit a snag today when I notecd the barrel locking nut is cracked through. Had to sear for another. Once this is sorted, will rechamber for the AI version and begin recording the results.

Thanks for the info.

wheeleran

IC-B

Re: 30-30 AI [Re: shaman] #14103827 09/05/19
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rickt300 Offline
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My first 30-30 was a model 340C Savage. It had a 18 1/2 inch barrel and shot really well though it had a oversize chamber and cases stuck with all but the most mild loads. Using pointed bullets it was necessary to trim the cases so that the ogive of the bullet wasn't inside the case mouth. I shot it with 150 gr. bullets on top of 29.0 grains of 3031 and took several deer with it. Presently my Contender Carbine in 30-30 AI is a favorite, case life, accuracy and velocity are all just right. Ready to hunt with this year.

Re: 30-30 AI [Re: shaman] #14111815 09/08/19
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I got a couple 340 Sav rifles in 30-30, one for $75 in 2005 and one for $119 in 2016.

I got in contact with Leroy Weisner. They seem like cheap guns to me, but that old guy is into them. He is smart. I could not figure out how to get the barrel off without the special nut wrench. He said to put pin gauges in a crescent wrench.

https://www.leeroysramblings.com/Gun%20Articles/stevens_325_savage_340_bolt_act.html


There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
Re: 30-30 AI [Re: shaman] #14348031 12/07/19
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I am opening up a new thread bases on some testing I have done with the 30/30 AI with LeverEvolution components. It will be titled: 30/30AI_Finding out for myself. Opinion appreciated there.

Re: 30-30 AI [Re: shaman] #14360418 12/11/19
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TX35W Offline
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Surprised no talk of 375 Win? I've had two Marlin rifles chambered in this, one factory, one JES rebore, and my reloads were pushing a 200gr .375 JFN slug at 2400 fps, zero pressure signs, 220gr bullets were not much slower. Talk about a deer thumper. Plus you just use starline 38/55 brass, the short stuff. This thing was a HAMMER and easy to load for with factory brass and a straight wall cartridge that loaded like a pistol round. JES does a lot of these, it's just a 30-30 case blown out straight (as I remember). But it's also an entirely different power level from a 30-30. Might be too much.

Also worth noting that my boring 336A with it's 24" barrel gives 2390 fps with most factory 150gr loads...It's way faster than a 20", though goofy looking.

Re: 30-30 AI [Re: shaman] #14741108 04/03/20
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wheelerdan Offline
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I put this rifle up for sale on Gunbroker. If anybody would like it, will sell as a package, rifle, reloading dies, a few pieces of brass. Asking $400

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