I bought a Remington 700 ADL in 7mm RM several months ago to use on my Kentucky elk hunt. The hunt is coming up the week after Christmas. It shoots the 145 LRX powered by Retumbo into small groups from 100 to 400 yards. I also loaded up some 160 Partitions that shot really good at 100 but could not hold a candle to the LRX at 400 yards. I have shot some hogs with the TTSX out of my 264 Win Mag and they all dropped dead in their tracks. My question for elk are you completely sold on the Barnes bullet? No woulda’s, coulda’s or shoulda’s? In actuality all my rifles shoot the Barnes fabulously. I just don’t have enough kills with the Barnes to be completely sold as I am with Accubonds or Partitions. Thanks
I’m completely sold on Barnes bullets for elk. For elk I want penetration and that’s where Barnes shines. I love Accubonds too but for elk I think Barnes are the best.
Yes and no. I've had great results on elk with the 225 gr. TSX in my .35 Whelen. Six shots and six dead elk. However, I have been unable to find a decent group from the 120 and 140 gr. TSX in three different 7x57s and a .280 Remington, nor has either of my .257 Robt. shot worth a damn with the 100 gr. TSX. Guess with those, at least so far it's the luck of the draw. Paul B.
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them. MOLON LABE
I’ve had quick kills on elk with 150 gr TTSX from a 7mm Weatherby so I’m sure the 145 LRX will do the same. Have no fear and leave no doubt that the Barnes bullet will get the job done. If your rifle shoots them well, the rest is on you! Good luck 🍀
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
me and my kids shoot either TTSX's or LRX's in all our rifles..they've worked great on elk, deer and antelope in .270, .243. 7x57, 300 H&H, 30'06 , 6.5 Cm and 280 AI.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Ulvejaeger: I have to completely agree with you on the Nosler Partitions working wonderfully well! I began reloading Nosler Partitions when I was 12 years old (60 seasons ago now!) and I have been using them successfully on Elk, Deer, Black Bear, Antelope and Mt. Goat ever since. I have used other bullets on rare occasion but 95%+ of my Big Game has been harvested with Nosler bullets. Never seen the need to replace them - their performance has been that good (dependable and lethal!)!
RMerta: Best of luck on this coming Hunt brother! Let us know how you do. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
I'm sold on Barnes bullets. I've used the 140 TTSX in my 7 SAUM for a long time. It's accounted for several west Texas mulies, a number of whitetails, hogs and sheep. All have been one shot kills and DRT. Never moved. I even took 2 aoudad with one shot. I've used the 90 grain X-bullet in my 257 Roberts for quite some time as well to take west Texas whitetails and sheep. All have been one shot kills and only one has ever taken more than a step. I've never recovered a single one.
The lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part!
I have used them in probably 10 calibers and killed a pile of critters and can tell you I have never even come close to losing one. The great majority were DRT. They also shoot in almost every rifle I own very well. I have used them from 25 yards to over 600 and the result was the same.
Never used them, never will. Nosler partitions when I feel the need for a tough bullet.In 50 years from everything from a lead ball to a partition and a lot of C&C between. I never saw any difference in the way all the elk died. They all did the job and out of 50+ elk, I have lost two if my memory serves me correctly. Those were my fault and not the bullet. Pretty much like the head stamp on the back of the cartridge that doesn't mean a whole lot
Contrary to a lot of opinions,elk are not hard to kill if you know where to shoot them
Last edited by saddlesore; 12/09/19.
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
I've had very good results with both Barnes and Partitions on elk. I can see no difference in their performance, but I have more rifles that will shoot a Barnes more accurately than a Partition. I've only recovered one partition and two Barnes from at least ten bulls.
They work very well for elk. I've killed a large pile of them over the years and wont use anything else. .280 re, 30-06, 300 wby have all done just fine.
Since I want the best for any situation, I'm sold on Barnes. But no elk for me, I use em on moose since I don't hunt elk. Kinda figuring if I think they are the best for moose, they should do just fine for elk. I know quite a few friends that use em for elk with no issues.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Being from Mn. the wife and I do not get to hunt elk that often be we have taken 2 bulls and 3 cows with Barnes bullets. I would also add a bunch of deer and a moose. I would feel very confident using the 145 LRX.
I've shot over a dozen elk with a 120 gr. TTSX out of my 7mm-08. I haven't loaded anything else but the TTSX for all of my rifles, and I won't be going back. I like how they perform, but more importantly, I take a lot of solace knowing that I'm not using lead any longer. I'm a wildlife toxicologist and there are too many secondary wildlife poisonings that occur from lead residue remaining with the gut pile. In my opinion, hunting should also consider conservation of other wildlife.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
Partitions will never be a bad bullet, but the technology is 60+ years old. There is no better bullet than the Barnes. Used on bear, elk and moose. Only every recovered one, 7' of penetration on a moose, two large bones and still 90% weight: awesome!
I have tried lots of bullets, just on paper, just to see if I can shrink my groups. I could never get a partition or accubond to shoot worth a darn in any caliber I have tried. From a 25/05, 270,300 win mag, 3 7mm rem mags and a 338. All of these rifles would shoot a Barnes bullet very good. So thats what I use, the most accurate bullet in a gun. Worked well on the only 2 elk ever taken, and lots of deer
I use them exclusively. Preferably the LRX. Never found a gun that woukdnt shoot TTSX's or LRX's well. With that said many other bullets kill better IMO.
I continue to drink the plain-old TSX Barnes Kool-Aide. 243/85's, .257/100's, .277/140's, .284/120's, .308/200's, .375/270's. I'm a devout fan. Fox, coyotes, badgers, pronghorn, Whitetail/Mule-deer, black bear, Caribou, Elk, and Moose.
11 elk w/TSX's + another 1/2dz that I've loaded the ammo for and other's have taken.
Everything I hunt with over .224 gets a TSX of some sort with the exception of my 1:8 270 Kimber that shoots 150ABLR's.
Last edited by horse1; 12/10/19.
I can walk on water.......................but I do stagger a bit on alcohol.
After witnessing ~140 head of big game of all sorts killed with Barnes bullets from about 0-350 meters, I’m completely sold on their effectiveness on shots in that range, particularly when shooting bone or steep angles through the critter. That said, I use other bullets with complete satisfaction as well.
Shot a cow in Sep with a 140 TTSX, 7 WSM, range was 300-325. She was quartering away, uphill in the timber. I put it high behind the on-side shoulder, bullet exited in front of off-side shoulder. My buddy said she dropped like the earth was yanked out from under her. The bullet passed just under the backbone/spine in the shoulder region. She had no blood in nose, mouth or on the ground where she fell. Dead right there.
I have also shot a few feral boars with the 100 TTSX out of a 25-06. Same result, DRT.
Shot about 4 or 5 antelope with a 150 TTSX from a 308 Norma. Same same.
If they shoot good in a rifle, I will hunt them. If not, Accubonds usually get the nod from me.
Just my 2 cents.
There is no way to coexist no matter how many bumper stickers there are on Subaru bumpers!
I like more expansive bullets on our local WT's, chest shooting to save meat. I've killed them with TTSX, but feel that they drop quicker (at least in my experience) with more expansive bullets.
My experience is not too unlike the SC study where similar WT's shot with softer C&C bullets traveled a shorter distance than WT's shot with harder, premium bullets. And among those that traveled, softer bullets left a better blood trail than harder bullets.
If they shoot well in your rifle, use them. The terminal performance is devastating.
Devastating compared to what? I have found them to be anything but devastating. Many guys claim you can "eat up to the hole" and drop "down a bullet weight"
I've only used the tipped Barnes on one elk hunt and was fortunate enough to make a bullet recovery. Several years ago, I recovered an untipped Barnes. Maybe only a comparison of one of each, but the bullets look identical, textbook mushrooming with no petals lost and each retained about 99% of weight. Never had a problem with the untipped bullets in .270, .308, or 7x61.
Yeah... I think the furthest shot was 175 yards....
Todd
Funny that when they open some but not all the way they are junk to some folks. Where have you found a cup and core that opens any different? They all vary. All over the place at times.
But yes, tipped work even better.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
I like more expansive bullets on our local WT's, chest shooting to save meat. I've killed them with TTSX, but feel that they drop quicker (at least in my experience) with more expansive bullets.
My experience is not too unlike the SC study where similar WT's shot with softer C&C bullets traveled a shorter distance than WT's shot with harder, premium bullets. And among those that traveled, softer bullets left a better blood trail than harder bullets.
Interestingly my buddy shot two small deer recently. Both on the move and both a bit to far back, edge of lungs/liver/paunch. TTSX. Neither one moved other than straight down. I"m just constantly amazed at how quickly TTSX deer die for us. As fast or faster than our 10mm deer do. LOL. But really I've had very few ttsx deer go 50 yards. Most go much less.
That said we are still mostly running target bergers on the deer or Lehigh in the 300/221. I'd switch to ttsx in the 6.5 Creedmoor but the target bergers are doing well. High BC. Pretty flat. Deer usually run 100 yards though.
Don't care for the bomb type damage but folks know that about me already nothing new there. looking for caliber in, less than dime out.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Not the middle one which was the worst but it is possible the rest might have cut a blade or two of tall grass. Nothing heavy or thick. I had other instances they penciled through on the same hunt. Zero internal trauma. Looked like I was hunting with arrows with field points.
When they opened they were hammers. Always accurate and drove deep but like hunting with FMJ’s when they didn’t open.
I have used the TTSX and LRX and really like those bullets.
Not the middle one which was the worst but it is possible the rest might have cut a blade or two of tall grass. Nothing heavy or thick. I had other instances they penciled through on the same hunt. Zero internal trauma. Looked like I was hunting with arrows with field points.
When they opened they were hammers. Always accurate and drove deep but like hunting with FMJ’s when they didn’t open.
I have used the TTSX and LRX and really like those bullets.
Todd
Any clue what the velocity was on the bullets that never opened or just partially opened? Someone said it earlier, velocity is key with these bullets.
24HCF in its entirety, is solely responsible for why my children do not have college funds, my mortgage isn't paid-off and why I will never retire early enough to enjoy the remainder of my life.
I have two 6.5 140 XLC recovered from an elk. one bent, the other barley starting to expand. Fired within 200 yards, 264 win. This was 20ish years ago
I skipped the TSX all together. But used the MRX a bunch, and the LRX to a lesser extent. Both bullets have given great results. Lots of good bullets these days, I consider Barnes among them. but I think impact speed and RPM need more consideration than more conventional bullets, that makes them less versatile imo. But if exits/penetration are your main goal there are few better.
Partitions have worked every year for me from long before there were Barnes X bullets
I agree, and so has numerous other bullets. Including sierra gamekings and hornady interlocks. Elk arent bullet proof critters. For risky shots, i prefer partitions, or if im using something like my 338 and using c&c bullets, i will always be using heavy for caliber pills. Id use a lighter barnes, though, without hesitation.
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
I am not making any judgments concerning Barnes, because I've had some good results with them, but have had enough bad experiences to give me pause. 80 yards. Impact velocity roughly 2800 FPS. Only reason I recovered the animal was because I put a second bullet into him. This was from a deer, not an elk so please don't chastise me, but you know how many words a picture is worth...
Hopefully I've just had abnormal luck or bad lots of bullets from Barnes, but I've found that sometimes they work awesome, sometimes they don't.
I am not making any judgments concerning Barnes, because I've had some good results with them, but have had enough bad experiences to give me pause. 80 yards. Impact velocity roughly 2800 FPS. Only reason I recovered the animal was because I put a second bullet into him. This was from a deer, not an elk so please don't chastise me, but you know how many words a picture is worth...
Hopefully I've just had abnormal luck or bad lots of bullets from Barnes, but I've found that sometimes they work awesome, sometimes they don't.
What bullet weight, cartridge and barrel twist?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I am not making any judgments concerning Barnes, because I've had some good results with them, but have had enough bad experiences to give me pause. 80 yards. Impact velocity roughly 2800 FPS. Only reason I recovered the animal was because I put a second bullet into him. This was from a deer, not an elk so please don't chastise me, but you know how many words a picture is worth...
Hopefully I've just had abnormal luck or bad lots of bullets from Barnes, but I've found that sometimes they work awesome, sometimes they don't.
What bullet weight, cartridge and barrel twist?
Not that thats happened with any other bullet in the whole world either... Sierra game kings come to mind.... talk about erratic.
I've had a few that were the old TSX that didn't leave much of an exit and I had to look a bit more than normal to find the DEAD deer... As to putting a second bullet in the deer, the ONLY way you would know if that solved any problem is if you had not. I"m not being pissy, I"m sure it sounds like it, but like others tell me, even when a game king fails my thoughts its still a dead deer.
The most consistent performing bullets I"ve ever shot have been Barnes. And extra so now with the tipped ones. Bergers are not far behind. Sierra match kings never gave me an issue but I have not shot more than maybe 20 animals with them so not a fair test really.
Lehigh for subsonic 300/221 have never ever failed us either.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
I am not making any judgments concerning Barnes, because I've had some good results with them, but have had enough bad experiences to give me pause. 80 yards. Impact velocity roughly 2800 FPS. Only reason I recovered the animal was because I put a second bullet into him. This was from a deer, not an elk so please don't chastise me, but you know how many words a picture is worth...
Hopefully I've just had abnormal luck or bad lots of bullets from Barnes, but I've found that sometimes they work awesome, sometimes they don't.
What bullet weight, cartridge and barrel twist?
62 TSX, vanilla .223 and 1/9 twist. Come to think of it, the impact velocity may have been closer to 3000 FPS...not really sure but it isn't going at turtle speed.
I am not making any judgments concerning Barnes, because I've had some good results with them, but have had enough bad experiences to give me pause. 80 yards. Impact velocity roughly 2800 FPS. Only reason I recovered the animal was because I put a second bullet into him. This was from a deer, not an elk so please don't chastise me, but you know how many words a picture is worth...
Hopefully I've just had abnormal luck or bad lots of bullets from Barnes, but I've found that sometimes they work awesome, sometimes they don't.
Might be just the lighting in the pic, but, the bullet looks "bent" and would've been wobbling upon impact.
I can walk on water.......................but I do stagger a bit on alcohol.
I’m completely sold on Barnes bullets for elk. For elk I want penetration and that’s where Barnes shines. I love Accubonds too but for elk I think Barnes are the best.
Same here. While I have seen a 100 TSX from a 257 Wby , tilt when it hit and end up going sideways through the animal. this was about 30yds and it was a Black Hawaiian Ram. This can happen with any long for caliber, fast bullet. They do indeed "yaw" ( a less exaggerated one, but similar to a Tomahawk missile at launch) With elk, using any rifle, its best to "shoot all the wiggle out of them", then, when you walk up to them, take out your pocket knife and jump on him, stabbing for all you are worth! Then, just maybe then, it will be dead. (Just kidding, but keep shooting until they are down.)
I am not making any judgments concerning Barnes, because I've had some good results with them, but have had enough bad experiences to give me pause. 80 yards. Impact velocity roughly 2800 FPS. Only reason I recovered the animal was because I put a second bullet into him. This was from a deer, not an elk so please don't chastise me, but you know how many words a picture is worth...
Hopefully I've just had abnormal luck or bad lots of bullets from Barnes, but I've found that sometimes they work awesome, sometimes they don't.
Might be just the lighting in the pic, but, the bullet looks "bent" and would've been wobbling upon impact.
A friend of mine recovered a TTSX from an elk that looked much better than that one. Like you could've put the tip back on and loaded it again. 168 grain out of a .308, so, a little slow. He hit the elk in the heart, so no secnd shot needed.
I am not making any judgments concerning Barnes, because I've had some good results with them, but have had enough bad experiences to give me pause. 80 yards. Impact velocity roughly 2800 FPS. Only reason I recovered the animal was because I put a second bullet into him. This was from a deer, not an elk so please don't chastise me, but you know how many words a picture is worth...
Hopefully I've just had abnormal luck or bad lots of bullets from Barnes, but I've found that sometimes they work awesome, sometimes they don't.
I believe this is the same experience I had although I never recovered the bullet. 338RUM 225TSX 3200 FPS, shot a Bull elk at 111 yards 338 pencil hole in, pencil hole out, just like a solid. Luckily it was through vitals. The Elk ran a quarter mile before it dropped.
Hunting buds use the 168 TTSX in their 300 RUM and 30-378 with great results.
My 26 Nosler really tears up meat, 120 TTSX or E-Tip (don't see much difference), at 3,450 fps. Can go faster, but 3,450 is for best groups.
So, seems to me, if you push a mono fast enough it really comes to life.
I know, I know, they also work at slower speeds, but they really perform at high velocity.
I like more conventional bullets at more conventional speeds....
For example, at 2,800 fps, I'd go with a more expansive bullet on local WT's, especially chest shooting them. Busting shoulders puts them down quicker, but tears up too much meat.
I have shot north of 130 critters or so with barnes regular tsx not the tipped version. Have used many calibers. 3006, 300wsm, 2506, 270, 257 wby mag, 7 mag, 223, 7x57, 375 H&H, and I have not had a single failure or lost a single animal with shots ranging from 50 to 600 yards. I would say that is statistically relevant. Every since they put the grooves in them and annealed the copper a bit more they have been really accurate out of almost all of my rifles and the fouling has mostly gone away. I also have taken game with accubonds and swift sirocco and they worked well. For standard c and c bullets I have found if a rifle won't shoot the sierra game king it probably won't shoot anything well. YMMV
I have shot north of 130 critters or so with barnes regular tsx not the tipped version. Have used many calibers. 3006, 300wsm, 2506, 270, 257 wby mag, 7 mag, 223, 7x57, 375 H&H, and I have not had a single failure or lost a single animal with shots ranging from 50 to 600 yards. I would say that is statistically relevant. Every since they put the grooves in them and annealed the copper a bit more they have been really accurate out of almost all of my rifles and the fouling has mostly gone away. I also have taken game with accubonds and swift sirocco and they worked well. For standard c and c bullets I have found if a rifle won't shoot the sierra game king it probably won't shoot anything well. YMMV
Agree with SGK generally being very accurate.
I have a 1/2" load for my 7-08, 140 SGK HPBT over Varget that I'm using right now. Gotta see how it does on WT's.
I'm going to W/U 120 NBT loads after deer season.
I like the accuracy of the monos. Tend to use them in faster rounds.
I like to observe bullet performance vs.velocity, try to match for best effect.
I am a big believer in Barnes bullets, both TSX and TTSX, for all my big game hunting, from little African antelopes to big African stuff, and most American game in between.
Here is a .375 Ruger, 270 gr. Barnes TSX recovered from a Nilgai bull, taken at a range around 200 yards, animal immediately DRT. Bullet lodged in the hide on the far side of the bull. The problem of judging expansion of these projectiles is that they usually do not stay in the animal, generally penetrating completely. They are accurate in every caliber I use, from .257 to .375, both the TSX and TTSX versions. The last two elk I have killed both fell to Barnes TSX bullets, one a 100 gr. .257 from my Weatherby, the other a 165 gr. from my .300 Wby., both elk at a range of 300 yards. Hard to imagine a better bullet for elk, IMO.
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
I have seen MANY animals killed with Barnes bullets. The key to them working well is impact velocity.
2300 FPS and over, they work perfectly (most times). From 2000 to 2300 impact velocity, they work well. (most times)
Under 2000 FPS on impact they tend to be a bit erratic because expansion is very limited or non-existent, but they can still kill super well because they tumble even when they don't expand. A tumbling bullet can be super deadly, but the down-side to this type of performance is the fact that a tumbling bullet (like a fragmenting bullet) often takes weird paths through the game, and it's not uncommon to hit an animal exactly where you want to and have such bullets turn inside the body and miss what you wanted to hit.
It's the hole that does the killing, and the bullet is the tool we use to make the holes. If the hole turns at odd angles you may kill like lighting, or you may have one turn and go where you didn't aim it.
So I think of Barnes bullets as High Velocity Bullets, (Or as close to mid range bullet.)
Look at the velocity your rifle and cartridge can give you, and look at the BC of the bullet you want to shoot and see the range it is down to 2000 FPS. That is the reliable effective range of that Barnes Bullet from your cartridge and rifle.
I seldom use them just because I have found I like the Nosler Partitions, various bonded bullets, and even cup and core bullets better overall because many of the rifles I love to hunt with are old fashioned and fire their bullets at between 2250 and 2650 from the muzzle, so in many cases the bullets getting down to 2000 FPS is not going to be that many yards of distance from my muzzles. From my 303, 300 Savages, 8X57 and many of my 165 and 180 grain 308 Winchester loads. Bonded, Partition and even good cup and core bullets work better at lower impact velocities for me in most cases. I do use the Barnex TMX at times from the following. 308 Winchester...130 grain. 1 deer. 3 antelope. 270 Winchester 140 grain 1 mule deer. 1 white tail deer. 30-06 150 grain (Pre TSX bullets) 1 elk. 300 H&H 165 grain (Pre TSX bullet) 4 deer. 1 elk. All the above have left me nothing to complain about at all, on every kill I have made with them.
I have loaded some ammo for my 25-06 with 115 grain Barnes TSX and also some 223s with 62 grain Barnes TSX, but so far I have not killed anything with them. I have seen Antelope and deer both killed with the same load from other's 25-06s and 3 elk killed with that bullet from my daughters and grand-sons 257 Roberts rifles, so I know how well it works, but I personally have not killed anything with them. (yet)
My friend Josh has killed about 15 coyotes and 2 deer with his AR15 in 223 with the 62 grain Barnes. It's worked very well, so I loaded some for myself, but I have not killed some much as a rabbit or prairie dog with one yet. Some day maybe.......
recovered both these 180 partitions from a moose few yrs back. I was using a 30-06, BSA know the 06 very well. Shot was less than 200 yrds. These were from the same box/bag. I don't consider the one partition a failure because I had a dead moose on the ground.
Last edited by 79S; 12/12/19.
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
Shot a buck this year with 180gr TTSX loaded in a 300WM. Hit thd buck in the ribs at 65yds. He just kept eating acorns. Walked 25' grazing, stopped, lifted his head, teetered a little tyen fell over. Exit hole was the same size as the entrance. No b lood anywhere.
recovered both these 180 partitions from a moose few yrs back. I was using a 30-06, BSA know the 06 very well. Shot was less than 200 yrds. These were from the same box/bag. I don't consider the one partition a failure because I had a dead moose on the ground.
Both of those appear tonhave worked exactly as designed.
I am not making any judgments concerning Barnes, because I've had some good results with them, but have had enough bad experiences to give me pause. 80 yards. Impact velocity roughly 2800 FPS. Only reason I recovered the animal was because I put a second bullet into him. This was from a deer, not an elk so please don't chastise me, but you know how many words a picture is worth...
Hopefully I've just had abnormal luck or bad lots of bullets from Barnes, but I've found that sometimes they work awesome, sometimes they don't.
I have a fair number of TSX/TTSX bullets recovered from trees behind my target that hit the target paper and the plastic sign I use for a backer that look just like that! Some bent, some not. The ones not bent were stuck in the most straight butt first. They make a good case for the bullet tumbling after minimal upset and sort of restabilizing because of the drag of the partial expansion.
My guess is that all it takes to cause the partial expansion is a target backer, juicy weeds, small brush etc. I have seen enough caliber size holes both in and out accompanied by massive internal damage that I put no stock whatsoever in entrance/exit holes. But... I can see the case for a mono hitting butt first and "penciling" through. Additionally, I have seen monos shot into dry sand and dry wood not expand. Moisture seems to be important to good expansion.
I have shot a bunch of monolithic bullets in tightly-stacked dry newspaper, my favorite media for testing any bullet for impact on heavy bone. Have yet to have any of them fail to fully expand, including non-tipped TSX's. This suggests that liquid (or other softer media, such as wax or gel) is necessary for hollow-point expansion.
As a more general comment, ran into yet an older guy (even older than me) last fall who shot a mule deer through the lungs with some sort of controlled-expansion bullet and because the buck went maybe 75 yards before falling over. He thought the bullet didn't expand because the exit hole was "caliber size." I asked if he actually looked at the internal damage, and he claimed he did, and it was considerable. I then asked him how in the hell he felt (the only word appropriate at that point) the bullet did not expand. His answer was so vague that he apparently had no idea that he was contradicting himself.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
recovered both these 180 partitions from a moose few yrs back. I was using a 30-06, BSA know the 06 very well. Shot was less than 200 yrds. These were from the same box/bag. I don't consider the one partition a failure because I had a dead moose on the ground.
Both of those appear tonhave worked exactly as designed.
For many the bullet on the right is not what a partition should looke like it should look like the one on the left. These are the only partitions I ever recovered.
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
recovered both these 180 partitions from a moose few yrs back. I was using a 30-06, BSA know the 06 very well. Shot was less than 200 yrds. These were from the same box/bag. I don't consider the one partition a failure because I had a dead moose on the ground.
Both of those appear tonhave worked exactly as designed.
For many the bullet on the right is not what a partition should looke like it should look like the one on the left. These are the only partitions I ever recovered.
Many people dont have a clue what they are talking about.
Always interesting to hear what a bullet from a quickly dead animal should look like.
I’m no gun writer like you but a lot of people have this vision of partition bullets perfect mushroom.. I’m just showing a picture of a partition that isn’t all pretty.. also used a 200gr hot-cor out of a 325 wsm on a caribou 400yds. Only thing I recovered was pieces of lead never found the jacket. Caribou took 3 steps dead, but majority of you would consider that bullet failure because a perfect mushroomed billet was not recovered. I’m in the camp dead animal equals great bullet performance..
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
recovered both these 180 partitions from a moose few yrs back. I was using a 30-06, BSA know the 06 very well. Shot was less than 200 yrds. These were from the same box/bag. I don't consider the one partition a failure because I had a dead moose on the ground.
Both of those appear tonhave worked exactly as designed.
For many the bullet on the right is not what a partition should looke like it should look like the one on the left. These are the only partitions I ever recovered.
Many people dont have a clue what they are talking about.
Well you see it here all the time, especially when it comes to the TSX bullet. A lot of guys cuss the eld-x, I shot a caribou with one and perfect performance it hit bone and bullet was never recovered. Like I said dead animal means great bullet performance.
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
Always interesting to hear what a bullet from a quickly dead animal should look like.
I’m no gun writer like you but a lot of people have this vision of partition bullets perfect mushroom.. I’m just showing a picture of a partition that isn’t all pretty.. also used a 200gr hot-cor out of a 325 wsm on a caribou 400yds. Only thing I recovered was pieces of lead never found the jacket. Caribou took 3 steps dead, but majority of you would consider that bullet failure because a perfect mushroomed billet was not recovered. I’m in the camp dead animal equals great bullet performance..
The partition bullet is designed to blow the from half of the bullet off, with the back half remaining intact. As Insaid they worked perfectly. I've only recovered one partition and it look just like the one you posted with the lead gone.
I have used the TTSX, and LRX exclusively for the last few years. The only reason I use them is because I dont want to deal with lead fragments contaminating my meat supply and being fed to my youngs kids. With that said I have noticed in many cases you don't get much of a blood trail, of any at all. The entrance and exit wounds are tough to even see with out looking. This kinda makes the exit hole thing moot. The other thing I have noticed is that they simply dont shred internal organs like a Nosler BT or Hornady IL does. Likewise reaction to the shot isnt as pronounced or non existent. FWIW this applies to 175 LRX and 180 TTSX in the 300 RUM and WSM and the 100 TTSX in the 25-06AI.
I am not making any judgments concerning Barnes, because I've had some good results with them, but have had enough bad experiences to give me pause. 80 yards. Impact velocity roughly 2800 FPS. Only reason I recovered the animal was because I put a second bullet into him. This was from a deer, not an elk so please don't chastise me, but you know how many words a picture is worth...
Hopefully I've just had abnormal luck or bad lots of bullets from Barnes, but I've found that sometimes they work awesome, sometimes they don't.
Forum member Brad had the same thing happen with a 30 caliber TTSX out of a 308.
recovered both these 180 partitions from a moose few yrs back. I was using a 30-06, BSA know the 06 very well. Shot was less than 200 yrds. These were from the same box/bag. I don't consider the one partition a failure because I had a dead moose on the ground.
Both of those appear tonhave worked exactly as designed.
For many the bullet on the right is not what a partition should looke like it should look like the one on the left. These are the only partitions I ever recovered.
Many people dont have a clue what they are talking about.
Well you see it here all the time, especially when it comes to the TSX bullet. A lot of guys cuss the eld-x, I shot a caribou with one and perfect performance it hit bone and bullet was never recovered. Like I said dead animal means great bullet performance.
If you had recovered it and it didnt look like a perfect mushroom with 100 percent weight retention many would say it failed... I dont care what the bullet looks like per se. I want the animal dead pronto.
I have used the TTSX, and LRX exclusively for the last few years. The only reason I use them is because I dont want to deal with lead fragments contaminating my meat supply and being fed to my youngs kids. With that said I have noticed in many cases you don't get much of a blood trail, of any at all. The entrance and exit wounds are tough to even see with out looking. This kinda makes the exit hole thing moot. The other thing I have noticed is that they simply dont shred internal organs like a Nosler BT or Hornady IL does. Likewise reaction to the shot isnt as pronounced or non existent. FWIW this applies to 175 LRX and 180 TTSX in the 300 RUM and WSM and the 100 TTSX in the 25-06AI.
As we’ve discussed before, I don’t doubt your experience, but I have had the opposite experience observing kills with the TTSX/LRX and NBT/HIL bullets. Funny how two pools of experience with fairly significant numbers can lead to such opposite conclusions.
Always interesting to hear what a bullet from a quickly dead animal should look like.
Not too unlike bullet failure stories from the skinning shed...
DF
Just because a bullet kills something doesn't mean it worked as it was designed to.
Likewise lots of critters get multiple bullets in them. Some may have not been fatal for whatever reason, or would be fatal only after several miles of running.
If a bullet designed for penetration explodes on an elk's shoulder bone, but a small piece of it makes it to the lungs, then the hunter finally finds the elk miles later, would you say the bullet didn't fail? It killed the elk after all.
Always interesting to hear what a bullet from a quickly dead animal should look like.
Not too unlike bullet failure stories from the skinning shed...
DF
Just because a bullet kills something doesn't mean it worked as it was designed to.
Likewise lots of critters get multiple bullets in them. Some may have not been fatal for whatever reason, or would be fatal only after several miles of running.
If a bullet designed for penetration explodes on an elk's shoulder bone, but a small piece of it makes it to the lungs, then the hunter finally finds the elk miles later, would you say the bullet didn't fail? It killed the elk after all.
Good points, all.
I like DRT, or at least a short death run.
So, a critter being dead and found, ending up in the skinning shed, doesn’t guarantee the bullet performed optimally.
Seeing how it worked (or didn’t) can be interesting.
Suboptimal performance may not technically be failure with a hanging dead critter.
True..and that's where the word "subjectivity" comes to mind.
One man's definition of "good" or even "acceptable" varies quite a bit too, which I suspect is why different people come to different conclusions, especially concerning bullet performance on this site, when most all the parameters are the same.
Have taken 5 deer, from about 50 - 293 yards, with the 145LRX, only 2 took about 5 steps. One from this year was pouring out blood from the exit. Could see a stream through the scope.
Have taken 5 deer, from about 50 - 293 yards, with the 145LRX, only 2 took about 5 steps. One from this year was pouring out blood from the exit. Could see a stream through the scope.
A Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles blood trail.
Found one last night with wide blood trail. Bud shot a doe a bit back, hit liver with 130 NPT out of his .270. Yeah, I know. Didn’t have the heart to give him the scoop on his choice of round. Doe ran 60-70 yds, spewing blood. We found her where she ran out of gas (blood); she’s hanging in the cooler.
Always interesting to hear what a bullet from a quickly dead animal should look like.
Not too unlike bullet failure stories from the skinning shed...
DF[/quote Just because a bullet kills something doesn't mean it worked as it was designed to. elk after all.
It also means that more than likely the guy that pulled the trigger might not have put the bullet where it needed to go.
Mystifies me that all these bullets of so called failures came out of dead animals.The best one I have always heard was the animal ran off never to be found so it was definitely bullet failure.Same story as above..
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
Seeing some of these responses, makes me think about my grandfather’s ‘32 Chevrolet......it got him to town, but not nearly as comfortably as one of today’s modern vehicles is capable of. There are those that refuse to have an objective view of improved technology....and much prefer the “old” ways! memtb
Last edited by memtb; 12/14/19.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
Years ago, I used the original Barnes X bullets and they did real well, from my 7 mag, on three New Mexico Oryx and a few elk. I bought a second rifle, that obviously had a tighter barrel,etc., and had to back the powder off five grains, over the older rifle. I wanted a load that would shoot well in both, and so I went back to Nosler Partitions and Hornady Interlocks and never looked back.
I do a lot of shooting and I do not like the expense of the coppers, for one, and also, I, for the most part, do not shoot real high-velocity cartridges. The only thing that I would use the coppers on, now, would be big dense critters like elk. There is absolutely no need to use them on deer-sized critters.
Another fallacy, is that the lead bullets will harm the children (always goes back to the children, when justifying a reason not to use something). There is zero evidence that any lead shot into an animal has ever had a bad effect on humans.
I have nothing against the coppers, but for my hunting/shooting I will stay with the lead-core bullets.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it. A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck. Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
Mono's like these step a marginal round up to greater task. They definitely makes my 25/06 and bull elk round, without the mono's it is a little to light, imo
Ironic that people in this thread cannot even come to a consensus on what a "failure" is. No wonder we still argue about bullets.
If forced to choose a 'failure scenario", I would always choose limited bullet expansion and plenty of penetration over too much expansion and limited penetration.
I am sold on their accuracy. While the original X bullets were not accurate in my rifles the TSX version definitely is. I have only shot a caribou at 400 yard (Gut shot/ my shame) and 100 yards (shoulder and neck) and a cow elk at 70 yards in the neck so don't have enough animals to say I am completely sold on them.
I am sold on their accuracy. While the original X bullets were not accurate in my rifles the TSX version definitely is. I have only shot a caribou at 400 yard (Gut shot/ my shame) and 100 yards (shoulder and neck) and a cow elk at 70 yards in the neck so don't have enough animals to say I am completely sold on them.
They are accurate.
Use, IMO, depends on the specific application. Critter being hunted, chest vs. shoulder shots, distance, speed at impact, etc.
I don’t see a right or wrong answer. Lots of choices, some better than others. Gotta match and balance variables for optimal outcome.
I have not shot Barnes yet, but would like too, but my understanding from all the stuff I've read about them... is that they work best when used one bullet weight lighter than normal lead bullets for higher velocities and greater expansion. Sounds like they need some speed to work correctly which would be a win win for those who will step down a little instead of shooting their normal old school caliber for weight bullets. My old 30-06 shoots 150 gr lead bullets, but it would be 130's in it now if I used Barnes.
My main desire for using the Barnes... is the HOPE that it puts more deer in the dirt...DRT. It can be THICK in our swamps here in S.C. so I don't like it when any animal takes a step.
If it doesn't put them down quicker... then Heck... I'll stick with my bow and arrow....LOL.
My experience started with Barnes way back in the mid 90's. I always follow these threads with interest.
Struggled getting any original X's in 270 to shoot. Finally found an accurate load with the 140gr. Took a Colorado elk, and a few deer with no issues. When I finally got a chronograph, found out the load was very slow, only running a little over 2700fps. Moved on to other bullets.
Next experiment was with Barnes 338 XLC out of a 338-06. Did not shoot satisfactorily, moved on. I was done with mono's for the time being.
Then I met one of the guys from Superior ammo and the local range. He convinced me to try TSX's. This was early 2000's? Since then I/we have on game experience with the following:
To my knowledge, I have never had a "failure". Every one I have recovered has been dang near advertising print perfect.
The last couple of years, I have used some C&C just to try them again. They work, but I do not like the damage they cause. I hunt fairly open country so DRT is not an issue for me.
My Dad has used nothing but Hornady 130gr IL for many, many years out of his 270. But he did use a 150gr NP on his only bull elk.
I have seen almost no blood out of deer I have shot with a lot of calibers. With lead core and mono bullets even with large broad heads. I shot one with a .223 with a 53 grain TSX at 3300, zero blood and zero hair at the place the deer stood. All I could find the next day in good light was a single drop a couple feet from where the deer fell. it made it a little better than 100 feet and when I gutted the deer the heart was loose in the chest. One shot with a 50 cal muzzle loader destroyed the top half of the heart completely and the remnant was loose in the chest. Blood for three jumps and then nothing for fifty yards to where the deer fell. Shot one with a .243 heart loose in the chest deer ran 50-80 feet and fell. Got up ran back to where it was hit and dropped dead. No blood except where it died. Shot one deer with a broad head with over 2 inches of cut by 4 blades. Deer went 50 yards without bleeding a drop. then after one drop it made it another 20 feet feet and died in an area that everything withing ten feet was red.
I have seen the same thing out of cup and core bullets for a long time as well.
I have seen caliber size holes in and out with both cup and core and monos. I have never seen a mono make just one hole, but I have seen that with cup and cores often enough and those deer are more often poor blood trails. Good entrance and exit holes do not guarantee good blood trails nor massive internal damage. Caliber in and caliber out holes do not prevent good blood trails. Excellent blood trails do not guarantee short runs and easy recovery. The last one I shot this year bled like someone walked along with a bucket full of blood with a dime size hole in the bottom. Made it 300 yards +. Shot one last year, double lung, bled so much that could I still run I could have followed it at a dead run. Made it just over a mile. What happens after the trigger breaks is out of my control and Bambi does what Bambi does. One out of about three deer I shoot drops where it stands when I use a rifle. With the bows it tends to be more like one out of six-eight.
I process all my deer myself and have done so for every single deer I have ever shot. So, I know what those wounds look like. I have yet to be able to discern anything about the wounds from deer that bled/didn't bleed well, deer that ran a long ways or dropped where they stood that were not CNS shots, or the raw quality of the allowing them to run far or not other than CNS shots. I have seen deer die from what I considered minor wounds and deer mange long runs with hellacious wounds. IMO it's best to prepare for a worst case situation when I start out to recover them. What may be different for me than for others is that I have only seen two deer I shot get up again after going down after the shot. No guess as to why. Both were bow kills, both were hit well. Both bled well.
What I make the hole in Bambi with does not seem to make a damn but of difference.
Wasn't it JJHack that advocated a Barnes 165gr TTSX out of 30-06 as the perfect SA plains game medicine? He saw more than a few animals killed with that bullet.
The TSX did not work well for me at all. In stark contrast, the TTSX has performed very consistently, mostly dropping where they stand. The TTSX now is my go to choice.
Not at elk, but here is a 189# WT buck from this morning for some wound photos from a TTSX for consideration.
Barnes are extremely good at crushing bone from any angle. So aim for high shoulder/spine and you'll get a lot of DRT kills.
I agree with that. Unfortunately they are more erratic when shot behind the shoulder.
I just don't see the erratic part really. Even ones shot to far back. Buddy hit two this year for some reason in the liver area, both fell at the shot. TTSX.
High shoulder. Not the best for error, go middle of vitals to get the most room for error every time IMHO.
But lots love that high shoulder shot.
I've seen 3 this year walking with that shot a bit to high but healing. And at least 1 last year. Usually see 1-2 a year with that shot a bit to high.
Probably the problem is that some folks that try that shot don't know exactly where its supposed to go actually.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
about 90 yards out I take the almost full frontal shot, there was just a slight quartering to my left angle,
I aim just slightly off center of his left chest, bullet exited out on his right side back behind his ribs,
Needless to say, very little tracking....like ... none.
It would possibly have been an internal mess regarding field dressing, but Gutless method wins again.
About 10-12 years ago at 40 yds a raghorn bull came around a tree almost full frontal. I put the crosshairs just inside the point of the shoulder and the 243 w/ 100 gr NPt exited just in front of the off hind quarter. I do think the mono's generally penetrate further, but on broadside armpit shots I prefer the NPt.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively... Having said that, MAGA.
I have seen almost no blood out of deer I have shot with a lot of calibers. With lead core and mono bullets even with large broad heads. I shot one with a .223 with a 53 grain TSX at 3300, zero blood and zero hair at the place the deer stood. All I could find the next day in good light was a single drop a couple feet from where the deer fell. it made it a little better than 100 feet and when I gutted the deer the heart was loose in the chest. One shot with a 50 cal muzzle loader destroyed the top half of the heart completely and the remnant was loose in the chest. Blood for three jumps and then nothing for fifty yards to where the deer fell. Shot one with a .243 heart loose in the chest deer ran 50-80 feet and fell. Got up ran back to where it was hit and dropped dead. No blood except where it died. Shot one deer with a broad head with over 2 inches of cut by 4 blades. Deer went 50 yards without bleeding a drop. then after one drop it made it another 20 feet feet and died in an area that everything withing ten feet was red.
I have seen the same thing out of cup and core bullets for a long time as well.
I have seen caliber size holes in and out with both cup and core and monos. I have never seen a mono make just one hole, but I have seen that with cup and cores often enough and those deer are more often poor blood trails. Good entrance and exit holes do not guarantee good blood trails nor massive internal damage. Caliber in and caliber out holes do not prevent good blood trails. Excellent blood trails do not guarantee short runs and easy recovery. The last one I shot this year bled like someone walked along with a bucket full of blood with a dime size hole in the bottom. Made it 300 yards +. Shot one last year, double lung, bled so much that could I still run I could have followed it at a dead run. Made it just over a mile. What happens after the trigger breaks is out of my control and Bambi does what Bambi does. One out of about three deer I shoot drops where it stands when I use a rifle. With the bows it tends to be more like one out of six-eight.
I process all my deer myself and have done so for every single deer I have ever shot. So, I know what those wounds look like. I have yet to be able to discern anything about the wounds from deer that bled/didn't bleed well, deer that ran a long ways or dropped where they stood that were not CNS shots, or the raw quality of the allowing them to run far or not other than CNS shots. I have seen deer die from what I considered minor wounds and deer mange long runs with hellacious wounds. IMO it's best to prepare for a worst case situation when I start out to recover them. What may be different for me than for others is that I have only seen two deer I shot get up again after going down after the shot. No guess as to why. Both were bow kills, both were hit well. Both bled well.
What I make the hole in Bambi with does not seem to make a damn but of difference.
Most every animal I have shot with a Nosler BT has a blood trail Ray Charles could follow. Many I have shot with monos had scan or non existent blood trails. Honestly I have shot more than a couple deer and the only one I have ever had to track was a 100gr TSX out of a 25-06AI. Bullets are a trade off you can have massive damage and the resulting quick kills or you can have penetration and a longer time to die. There is no magic.
Barnes are extremely good at crushing bone from any angle. So aim for high shoulder/spine and you'll get a lot of DRT kills.
I agree with that. Unfortunately they are more erratic when shot behind the shoulder.
I just don't see the erratic part really. Even ones shot to far back. Buddy hit two this year for some reason in the liver area, both fell at the shot. TTSX.
High shoulder. Not the best for error, go middle of vitals to get the most room for error every time IMHO.
But lots love that high shoulder shot.
I've seen 3 this year walking with that shot a bit to high but healing. And at least 1 last year. Usually see 1-2 a year with that shot a bit to high.
Probably the problem is that some folks that try that shot don't know exactly where its supposed to go actually.
You expect and like deer to run by your own admission.. Deer have to be one of the easiest critters to kill. When when runs an appreciable distance with a cup and core bullet out of a high velocity rifle it's an oddity IMO. With monos more often than not they run.
Perhaps you're over thinking this. I have used all the bullets that you mentioned. The Barnes bullets generally work as advertised. So do the others. Exceptions occur, sadly and to the detriment of the game and to our success. But not often enough to matter in the real world. Go forth and slay your elk. Enjoy the best venison ver!
Barnes are extremely good at crushing bone from any angle. So aim for high shoulder/spine and you'll get a lot of DRT kills.
I agree with that. Unfortunately they are more erratic when shot behind the shoulder.
I just don't see the erratic part really. Even ones shot to far back. Buddy hit two this year for some reason in the liver area, both fell at the shot. TTSX.
High shoulder. Not the best for error, go middle of vitals to get the most room for error every time IMHO.
But lots love that high shoulder shot.
I've seen 3 this year walking with that shot a bit to high but healing. And at least 1 last year. Usually see 1-2 a year with that shot a bit to high.
Probably the problem is that some folks that try that shot don't know exactly where its supposed to go actually.
Or folks shoot at a deer that is 300 yards with a hold over for 350 and unintentionally hit high while all the while they were trying for a mid body hit.
The last time that bear ate a lawyer he had the runs for 33 days!
Barnes are extremely good at crushing bone from any angle. So aim for high shoulder/spine and you'll get a lot of DRT kills.
I agree with that. Unfortunately they are more erratic when shot behind the shoulder.
I just don't see the erratic part really. Even ones shot to far back. Buddy hit two this year for some reason in the liver area, both fell at the shot. TTSX.
High shoulder. Not the best for error, go middle of vitals to get the most room for error every time IMHO.
But lots love that high shoulder shot.
I've seen 3 this year walking with that shot a bit to high but healing. And at least 1 last year. Usually see 1-2 a year with that shot a bit to high.
Probably the problem is that some folks that try that shot don't know exactly where its supposed to go actually.
You expect and like deer to run by your own admission.. Deer have to be one of the easiest critters to kill. When when runs an appreciable distance with a cup and core bullet out of a high velocity rifle it's an oddity IMO. With monos more often than not they run.
Not in my experience, at least not with a MV of 2700 plus and a shoulder shot. DRT. Complete pass through..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Barnes are extremely good at crushing bone from any angle. So aim for high shoulder/spine and you'll get a lot of DRT kills.
I agree with that. Unfortunately they are more erratic when shot behind the shoulder.
I just don't see the erratic part really. Even ones shot to far back. Buddy hit two this year for some reason in the liver area, both fell at the shot. TTSX.
High shoulder. Not the best for error, go middle of vitals to get the most room for error every time IMHO.
But lots love that high shoulder shot.
I've seen 3 this year walking with that shot a bit to high but healing. And at least 1 last year. Usually see 1-2 a year with that shot a bit to high.
Probably the problem is that some folks that try that shot don't know exactly where its supposed to go actually.
You expect and like deer to run by your own admission.. Deer have to be one of the easiest critters to kill. When when runs an appreciable distance with a cup and core bullet out of a high velocity rifle it's an oddity IMO. With monos more often than not they run.
Not in my experience, at least not with a MV of 2700 plus and a shoulder shot. DRT. Complete pass through..
Have been using the Barnes X since 1994 & now the TSX for elk. Taken numerous elk over the years. Used to use the Nosler partition for years before. The Barnes in my experience far out penetrates the Partition. As to weight retention it is not even close . Have recovered many partitions with their weight down by 35% at least. , but never a Barnes mono. When it comes to an acute angle shot on elk where the bullet must penetrate The Barnes wins big time over the partition. The Barnes delivers far superior accuracy in my rifles.What's not to like..
Barnes are extremely good at crushing bone from any angle. So aim for high shoulder/spine and you'll get a lot of DRT kills.
I agree with that. Unfortunately they are more erratic when shot behind the shoulder.
I just don't see the erratic part really. Even ones shot to far back. Buddy hit two this year for some reason in the liver area, both fell at the shot. TTSX.
High shoulder. Not the best for error, go middle of vitals to get the most room for error every time IMHO.
But lots love that high shoulder shot.
I've seen 3 this year walking with that shot a bit to high but healing. And at least 1 last year. Usually see 1-2 a year with that shot a bit to high.
Probably the problem is that some folks that try that shot don't know exactly where its supposed to go actually.
You expect and like deer to run by your own admission.. Deer have to be one of the easiest critters to kill. When when runs an appreciable distance with a cup and core bullet out of a high velocity rifle it's an oddity IMO. With monos more often than not they run.
Not in my experience, at least not with a MV of 2700 plus and a shoulder shot. DRT. Complete pass through..
When shot through bone just about any bullet will kill a deer neatly. I dont shoot monos at any less than 3100fps muzzle velocity. But honestly even at 3300-to 3400 fps the increase in damage from a behind the shoulder shot isnt much more. Neither is the reaction to the shot.
I tend to agree with BWalker. My personal experience has been less than positive with Barnes.
Just last week, my dad shot a nice 8pt with a Rem 700, 7 SAUM, 140 at warp speed. Shot was broadside at 40 yards with zero between him and the deer (field setting). Buck flinched at the shot and took off straight ahead. In the snow we had a hard time sorting out which track was his. I found blood about 25 yards from the impact. It bled but if not for the snow would have had a hard time finding blood. The deer actually traveled uphill for about 75 yards before it died. Scant blood trail. The total distance traveled was about a 100 yards. The shot was perfect - mid body, tight behind the shoulder. Between 2 ribs on way in, broke one on way out. Entrance hole was very hard to see from the outside, exit about size of nickel.
Necropsy showed the bullet went through both lungs and caused sufficient damage. This has been my experience with Barnes as well - invisible entrance, small exit, enough internal damage to kill the animal. Blood tracing has been difficult. Maybe I've not shot enough or seen enough animals shot with Barnes but I've yet to see a good blood trail. Those I've seen hit in major bones, different story. Most DRT. Dads buck from last year did that from exact same stand, gun and load.
I've been accused of heresy before and suspect the same will occur here for goring a sacred cow. Please pass me the Partitions.....
That's interesting, as I was just talking to my dad about the last deer I shot with a 7mm SAUM and the 150gr TTSX. It was broadside at 160 yards and the deer reacted minimally, making a run off my shooting lane. When I walked down there after dark, there was lung splatter on the tree 7-8' behind where the deer had been standing. Even with a 50yd death run, there was a better than average blood trail. I was honestly expecting a bit less from a rib shot with a 7mm mono bullet and was pleasantly surprised. I've used the 120TTSX in the 7mm-08 at similar speeds and it's typically adequate regarding blood trails, but not generally quite as good as a cup/core. It does penetrate well though, so there's pros and cons.
I shot an elk once with a 180gr TTSX out of a 300 RUM at close range in the snow. The animal didnt show any reaction to the shot and ran off like I missed until it dropped. There wasnt a single speck of blood in the snow until we got to the spot where it died. The exit nor the entrance were noticable without digging around. Both lungs had a hole through them that was beyond caliber size, but not pulped like when hit with a Nosler BT. Interestingly the entrance side had a massive amount of blood shot.
I lost a cow elk this season. 400 yards square in the shoulder. I did shoot again because I thought it was over, when I realized she wasn’t going down the calf with her had ran in front of her. No follow up shot. She crossed a county road and made it onto private. I don’t know if the bullet deflected off the shoulder bone, but I found round bone fragments in the blood trail. Load was 150 gr TTSX in 7 mag 67.0 gr of Reloader 26 at 3170 FPS. Maybe I was lower than I thought but my buddy agreed that the shot was near perfect. 2” in another direction I probably could of punched a tag.
I never used the Fail Safes, although I have read reports that they tended to kill pretty slow, which isnt supprising. I would also add that I killed an antelope with a 25 cal 100gr TSX at 250 yards or so and it died as if pole axes with a behind the shoulder shot. My brother used the same gun and load on another antelope the same trick with the same general shot placement at over 400 yards with the same result. However I had more than several deer run a ridiculous amount using the same gun and load. JB was using the same bullet out of a 257 WTB IIRC and had an animal run way off as well. The mechanisms of wounding are not unknown and it's also not unknown why monos work the way they do. They simply trade off damage via less shrapnel and less frontal area for penetration.
Most every animal I have shot with a Nosler BT has a blood trail Ray Charles could follow..
I used BTs in .270 Roy and .300 Roy and rarely got exits on bigger wild hogs, and not much blood to follow.
Originally Posted by BWalker
Bullets are a trade off you can have massive damage and the resulting quick kills or you can have penetration and a longer time to die..
that doesnt explain the DRTs I had with the old FailSafes even at ranges out to +/- 400yds.
less frontal area compared to other expanding designs and not the disintegrating explosive effect of NP/BT.
...but down they went.
They ones that were not DRT, typically left a sufficient blood trail to follow.
I've used the 180 BT out if a 300 rum on game up to elk. Never recovered s bullet out of a deer. Did find one under the hide on a elk that dropped in its tracks. Never had a deer run at all while using that bullet.
One of those Echols customers, former forum member Allen Day said basicly what I typed above about the Failsafe IIRC as has Barsness.
IIRC , Allen Day was impressed with the performance of .300win Failsafes on Cape buffalo and other African game. and I do recall others on this forum over the years who have posted to say AD was a FS fan, detailing the success he had with them.
going back a few more years, Finn Aagaard wrote that he had made the X monometal the go-to load in his .30/06 supplanting the 180 NP.
if folks were choosing an expanding bullet to load in 9,3mm or .375 as an all-round use rifle for Africa, How many would choose a NP over an AF or current X bullet? ...
would they lean toward a disintegrating front section NP that penetrates 20 inches or intact X that goes 30 inches or intact AF that goes 40 inches?
(I have no doubt some would choose the NP out of misguided loyalty .. )
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
we have used Nosler Partitions for years ,i have plenty partition bullets and have worked well on whitetail , mule deer bucks,antelope and elk just fine. have used Barnes bullets they seem to work good as well. but the last couple of years my son and myself have used Swift A-Fame bullets ,i like the Swift bullets the best in my 257 Weatherby Mag. for all deer hunting now days.
Bull elk are the baseline here. I like smaller chamberings, the .270 and .280 and the Barnes bullets work really well in this situation...so does Nosler Partition. On smaller than bull elk bullet selection is not all that important. The Barnes 129 grain lrx is an Elk bullet
In my 308 they have never let a whitetail go very far. But one doe made it about 60 yards from the pond where I shot her. The 150 gr Blue meanie went through an Osage Orange (Hedge) sapling before striking the doe. Still she didn't go far. I was paranoid as I couldn't see her go down in an unpicked corn field. She wasn't far, maybe not even 60 yards. I think it was maybe 20 yards. But it was a 308 and not a magnum speed on a whitetail, not an elk. YMMV. I am convinced they are great. Be Well, Rustyzipper.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill.
Up until this year the only Barnes I killed anything with was a blue 100gr in 25-06 on a 150lb buck deer. Died right there partly because I clipped the bottom of the spine on a quartering shot. I wrote in another thread about this year using a 7mm-08 Model 7 20" stainless with a 120gr TSX opened up with a 1/16" bit marked at 1/4" depth. First deer full grown buck had a hole bored thru both shoulder bones between scapula and elbow and a LOT of damage in between. Yesterday shot a yearling doe, maybe 75 lbs with broadside entry just into the shoulder muscle and exiting same place on opposite side. Entry wound in the rib cage was about 3". Still trying to figger that out. Exit wound was inch or so. Everything in between was scrambled. Appears a larger hollow point in the older TSX might work. Beginning to like them. Will either use the remaining 20 or so I have with the hollow point enlarged or just go with 120 TTSX next year. Powder load was 223 CFE 48gr. I can see where the 120gr 7mm might kill stuff bigger than deer.
Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version) "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
Entry wound in the rib cage was about 3". Still trying to figger that out. Exit wound was inch or so. Everything in between was scrambled.
This is typical in my experience with the TTSX and leads me to conclude they actually open very rapidly on contact with the animal. See my post above in which the entrance hole in the rib cage is significant larger, 2" - 3", than the exit hole, which is about 1". This pattern is typical after using the TTSX on at least 30+ animals in the last several years. The actual count could be much higher as all of the pigs killed tend not to stick in the memory.
Thoughts for the day; Barnes TTSXs, like Porsche, there are no substitutes Speed kills...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
One of those Echols customers, former forum member Allen Day said basicly what I typed above about the Failsafe IIRC as has Barsness.
I suspect you are remembering me writing that Failsafes don't kill deer-sized game very quickly with heart/lung shots behind the shoulder. The bigger the game, however, the better they worked.
My wife and I used them for over a decade, starting in the early 1990s when they were first named Black Talons and Barnes X-Bullets usually did not shoot very accurately, and all together we took around a dozen species of big game in both North America and Africa with Fail Safes, ranging from whitetail, mule deer, and similar-sized African antelope, up through elk, nilgai, gemsbok, blue widlbeebeest, kudu to Alaskan moose and Cape buffalo. Plus, I went on several "industry" hunts where a lot of animals were taken, including one in Texas where 15 hunters took 30 nilgai (a bull and cow each) plus a bunch of feral pigs and even some javelina. The bullets included 140-grain .270s, 160 7mms, 165 and 180 .30s, 230 .338s and 300-grain .375s. Their only fault was a rare failure to expand. In fact can only remember one instance where that definitely happened.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Thoughts for the day; Barnes TTSXs, like Porsche, there are no substitutes Speed kills...
Jorge,
Actually, I have yet to be able to tell any difference in field performance between Barnes TTSX's, Nosler E-Tips, Hornady GMXs and even the old Fail Safe. I have been able to document slight slight differences in penetration and expansion when they're fired into various kinds of test media, but as far as on-game performance they've all acted remarkably simillarly.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
The older Barnes X , XLC and XBT, Failsafes all made me a believer in monos, but they also made me want to try and catch at least one shoulder, going in or out and across the top of the heart. Of course, high shoulder is the berries for me, it always works! But I too believe they all do better on tougher game. But, when it absolutely, positively has to a kill, I want a mono! Merry Christmas guys!
Thoughts for the day; Barnes TTSXs, like Porsche, there are no substitutes Speed kills...
Jorge,
Actually, I have yet to be able to tell any difference in field performance between Barnes TTSX's, Nosler E-Tips, Hornady GMXs and even the old Fail Safe. I have been able to document slight slight differences in penetration and expansion when they're fired into various kinds of test media, but as far as on-game performance they've all acted remarkably simillarly.
John, just "loving" on the TTSX haters. All the bullets you sighted are pretty much the same and yeah, I do prefer TTSXs, but not always. Deep down I'm a cup and core guy and (the horror!) old fashioned Silvertips
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Thoughts for the day; Barnes TTSXs, like Porsche, there are no substitutes Speed kills...
Jorge,
Actually, I have yet to be able to tell any difference in field performance between Barnes TTSX's, Nosler E-Tips, Hornady GMXs and even the old Fail Safe. I have been able to document slight slight differences in penetration and expansion when they're fired into various kinds of test media, but as far as on-game performance they've all acted remarkably simillarly.
I've used the Barnes TXS & TTSX extensively and have never found a shared petal. I have no problem if petals shear but have no real desire for it.
I have used the GMX on one deer and fond the petals sheared on the entrance side and despite hitting the vertebrae the exit hole was very small. Of course the buck went straight down. I don't know if this is normal for the GMX. The cartridge was a 300 win
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Have taken 5 deer, from about 50 - 293 yards, with the 145LRX, only 2 took about 5 steps. One from this year was pouring out blood from the exit. Could see a stream through the scope.
What cartridge?
What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
We've found both TSX's and TTSX's that sheared petals--as well as the original X-Bullets. In fact a couple that lost all their petals. Have seen the same thing with Fail Safes. Have also found "lost" petals in animals with both bullets, sometimes at the entrance but sometimes around the exit.
That said, lost petals don't seem to affect how they kill, and may even enhance "killing power," though petals tend to be lost when hitting relatively heavy bone, which also affects killing power. Eileen killed a big cow elk a couple years ago with a 130 TTSX from the .308 Winchester, quartering to her at around 250 yards. The bullet broke the near leg just above the big shoulder joint, and the cow stumbled 20-25 yards--obviously done for--before falling. Found the bullet minus all 4 petals under the hide in the middle of the ribs on the other side--with a petal in the ribs maybe 2 inches away. (Also found a petal from a 300-grain Fail Safe at the edge of the fist-sized exit hole it left in a Cape buffalo.)
So far have not found any E-Tips that lost any petals, at least that I recall--though will check my records. Also no GMX's have lost any, but haven't used nearly as many of them as X's, Fail Safes and E-Tips.
But as noted above, I don't know how much it matters. In fact Randy Brooks told me years ago, while sitting around a campfire during a mule deer hunt, that the first X-Bullets tended to lose their petals, which he thought probably made them more effective. But then customers started bragging about 100% weight retention, and some even complained about lost petals, even though the animals they came from were really, most sincerely dead. But Randy was enough of a businessman to go with what customers wanted, so tweaked the bullets do they'd tend to retain their petals.
Nowadays, of course, the petals of LRX's are considerably "softer" so the bullets will expand more readily at lower velocities. So it's kind of gone full-circle!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Damn right I am, any speed demon cartridge needs them provided accuracy is there, that said, i know of no better soft at 2075 and 2163 fps in 500 and 577 Nitro doubles, I even use the 290gr TTMZ's in my inline 50 cal, one destructive sawmill cuttin' sombitch.
Even use 125gr in 38 Super at 1321 fps. 140gr in 357 mag revolver at 1450 fps 140gr in 40 S&W at 1250 fps. 185gr in 45 ACP at 1125 fps.
The mule deer buck I shot this year at 160+ yards was hit a little farther back than I like, but still a mid body hit. Unlike every other deer or elk I have ever shot with a TTSX, he ran about 150 yards before piling up at the end of a blood trail spewing bits or innards that Stevie Wonder could have followed. Small entry and maybe 3/4 inch exit through a rib. That was a first of animals shot with a TTSX that did not drop in sight. Happy Trails
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
Would greatly appreciate your field results with the .500s and .577s!
LOL, have been to Africa twice and didn't take either.
I have shot two deer with the 570gr and 750gr TSX's, no test at all, completely wrecked the animals, that said, I went from mild to wild in my bullet testing media here at the farm, with hard packed glossy Wife mags stacked tight in a box loaded with random cow bones, the TSX's never failed to penetrate and expand from either double.
I used dry, and then wet, went high velocity and loaded down, they always worked, not knocking another bullet company, but, I used the 570gr Hornadys and Woodleighs in the 500 and 750gr Woodleighs in the 577, with the 570 Hornadys I saw a wrecked bullet, it had copper, lead and steel exposed, on it's slow vel test it didn't expand at all, the Woodleighs expanded some running slow, and shirt buttoned when ran high [2175fps 500 Nitro] into the bone and hard mags.
The big test came from the 570gr TSX's, I had machine shop Bud draw down a dozen to 505 inch, loaded them up to 2500+ fps in my Gibbs bolt rifle and slammed them into the hard box with bones, some of the petals were rounded off, but a definite X pattern was still visible, the drawn down Woodleighs were flattened much worse.
High to low, hard to soft nothing compared to the Barnes' in my doubles, a 750gr TSX was fired lengthways into a 55 gallon steel drum filled with water with a banded lid, the bullet pulled the threads on the small threaded filler lid, it came dancing back by me on the right from 25 yards out, blew the main lid, split the drum at the seam, had a very large dog knot knocked in the bottom of the drum, nearly made it out, the displacement pressure has to be seen to be believed, I can imagine similar on the insides of a large animal.
I have massive faith in the 50 and 577 cal TSX's, even running at or just over 2000 fps.
[ LOL, have been to Africa twice and didn't take either.
I
Me neither! AFrames, Partitions and Interlocks, go figure!
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I have only shot 1 animal with a Barnes. A bull elk at 290 yds with a 168 ttsx out of a 300 wsm at 3130 FPS. He is in the freezer! Am I completely sold ? I don’t know yet. I do know they shoot a bit more accurately than the 180 partitions for me. They also carry a bit more energy out to 525 yds over the 180 partition.
My thinking is that the monos are at their best when launched over 3000 FPS , and used on elk or larger sized game.
I have only ever shot one animal with a Barnes TTSX. I shot a smaller whitetail buck broadside through the ribs at about 40 yards. It was 150 grain and fired from a 308. it punched right through but apparently did not expand. The exit hole was about the same as the entry. It is possible that it did not even hit a rin bone. There was little or no blood trail but I saw the buck drop after walking about 40 or 50 yards. This was probably unusual and a deep-penetrating bullet was not necessary for what I was doing. It did make me a bit leery of using them on deer under most circumstances in case a deer wanders out of sight.
I recovered the buck so it was not an issue. The reason I was not using a Ballistic Tip as I used to use all the time was because I also had a bear tag. I have a Browning BLR Takedown, though, that I continue to use them in exclusively. it is also a 308 Win. The only bullet I have found that shoots accurately out of it is the 130 grain Barnes TTSX. The extra speed on it might make a difference if I finally get another deer.
Anyway, that is my experience with Barnes. If I was elk hunting, I would not hesitate to use one. Deer might be a bit light for rib shots.
I have only ever shot one animal with a Barnes TTSX. I shot a smaller whitetail buck broadside through the ribs at about 40 yards. It was 150 grain and fired from a 308. it punched right through but apparently did not expand. The exit hole was about the same as the entry. It is possible that it did not even hit a rin bone. There was little or no blood trail but I saw the buck drop after walking about 40 or 50 yards. This was probably unusual and a deep-penetrating bullet was not necessary for what I was doing. It did make me a bit leery of using them on deer under most circumstances in case a deer wanders out of sight.
I recovered the buck so it was not an issue. The reason I was not using a Ballistic Tip as I used to use all the time was because I also had a bear tag. I have a Browning BLR Takedown, though, that I continue to use them in exclusively. it is also a 308 Win. The only bullet I have found that shoots accurately out of it is the 130 grain Barnes TTSX. The extra speed on it might make a difference if I finally get another deer.
Anyway, that is my experience with Barnes. If I was elk hunting, I would not hesitate to use one. Deer might be a bit light for rib shots.
I am curious as what the vital organs looked like on this deer when you dressed him ?
I have only ever shot one animal with a Barnes TTSX. I shot a smaller whitetail buck broadside through the ribs at about 40 yards. It was 150 grain and fired from a 308. it punched right through but apparently did not expand. The exit hole was about the same as the entry. It is possible that it did not even hit a rin bone. There was little or no blood trail but I saw the buck drop after walking about 40 or 50 yards. This was probably unusual and a deep-penetrating bullet was not necessary for what I was doing. It did make me a bit leery of using them on deer under most circumstances in case a deer wanders out of sight.
I recovered the buck so it was not an issue. The reason I was not using a Ballistic Tip as I used to use all the time was because I also had a bear tag. I have a Browning BLR Takedown, though, that I continue to use them in exclusively. it is also a 308 Win. The only bullet I have found that shoots accurately out of it is the 130 grain Barnes TTSX. The extra speed on it might make a difference if I finally get another deer.
Anyway, that is my experience with Barnes. If I was elk hunting, I would not hesitate to use one. Deer might be a bit light for rib shots.
I am curious as what the vital organs looked like on this deer when you dressed him ?
They bullet went right through the lungs but they looked pretty much like they had not been touched. The organ damage appeared minimal.
After I shot, I watched the buck walk off with it's tail down. I was waiting for it to fall. It stayed on its feet for a good 30 seconds to a minute and I started thinking I had somehow missed it. Then it dropped after slowly walking (stop and go) about 40 or 50 yards through thick woods. If it had run instead of walking, I probably would not have recovered it. I still find it odd that it didn't try to run.
For what it is worth, I am not trashing the bullets. I have quite a few TTSX rounds. If it had hit bone or a bigger animal, I think the expansion would have been fine. Also, a faster round would have probably helped (I have a lot of 25-06 loaded with TTSX bullets). The 308 that I was using had a 24" barrel and it was a 150 grain Barnes so I would guess the impact velocity was pretty high - probably 2700 fps at the 40 yard distance. I personally switched to Accubond 165 grains for deer and bear with that particular rifle. I am about to load a bunch of 308 with 110 and 130 grain TTSX for my BLR. Hopefully, I will get a chance to test them on a deer.
Edit: I just pulled up a couple pictures (cant post because I don't have a hosting account). It looks like the entry hole is somewhat bigger than the exit for some reason. Also, the entry went in a bit below the midline and right behind the front shoulder. It exited toward the back of the ribcage on the far side. It looks like the bullet would have damaged the top of the heart but I cannot specifically remember that.
[ LOL, have been to Africa twice and didn't take either.
I
Me neither! AFrames, Partitions and Interlocks, go figure!
I took paper patched and grease groove Sharps rifle bullets along with Woodleigh and Bitterroot Bonded Cores, the I didn't take either I was talking about was either of my heavy double rifles.
I’ve killed a few head of game with the 145 LRX out of my 7mm Mashburn and many, many more with Barnes bullets. But that particular bullet has worked extremely well from 50 to 440 yds. Those who say it won’t work passed 400 yards are up at night.
I’ve killed a few head of game with the 145 LRX out of my 7mm Mashburn and many, many more with Barnes bullets. But that particular bullet has worked extremely well from 50 to 440 yds. Those who say it won’t work passed 400 yards are up at night.
If you have used the 150 TTSX, how would you compare the performance? Happy Trails
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
That is a 270/130 factory Vor-Tx, shot into a cow elk at 60 yards. Shot center punched the lungs, the bullet was recovered on opposite hide. Cow ran a good 60 yards.
Thing about Barnes bullets is they buy different lots of copper to make their bullets. You cannot count on the metallurgy of the copper being consistent from lot to lot. Therefore different results as you can see. Good and bad.
Thing about Barnes bullets is they buy different lots of copper to make their bullets. You cannot count on the metallurgy of the copper being consistent from lot to lot. Therefore different results as you can see. Good and bad.
Roll the dice.
I did and lost on multiple occasions.
That does make a lot of sense and why some have had good results others have had poor. I have had good luck with them other than some rifles don't shoot them all that well. I've only had one brand and make of bullet that was a complete failure on game. It is a very popular bullet and possibly I got a bad production run.
That is a 270/130 factory Vor-Tx, shot into a cow elk at 60 yards. Shot center punched the lungs, the bullet was recovered on opposite hide. Cow ran a good 60 yards.
60 yards is a fairly standard death run for an elk hit through the shoulder and/or lungs. That bullet does look to be a bit underexpanded no doubt, but the end result isn't out of the ordinary, IME.
Not in my experience. Bergers do often kill elk quickly if they make it to the lungs or if shoulders are avoided, no doubt...but accubombs, partitions, grand slams, and many other non-monos have given me 50-75 yard death runs on lung and shoulder shot elk, relatively often.
It's normally not a big deal for them to run that far before dying, but that has been my experience with non-monos, at normal velocities. YMMV, and that's fine. Use what works and gives confidence.
That is a 270/130 factory Vor-Tx, shot into a cow elk at 60 yards. Shot center punched the lungs, the bullet was recovered on opposite hide. Cow ran a good 60 yards.
What does the frontal area of that bullet measure ? I also find it odd that this bullet did not exit. This was not a bullet failure because it did it’s purpose in fairly short order. However I would like and expect more expansion and penetration at that yardage with that bullet ??
Although the bullet didn’t expand as well as expected , it still penetrated deep enough to do its job.
Unfortunately sometimes when non mono bullets fail they expand to much or to quickly and never drive deep enough to do there job .
Which one is the bigger failure ? I wish each was better, but I like the dead animal.
Thing about Barnes bullets is they buy different lots of copper to make their bullets. You cannot count on the metallurgy of the copper being consistent from lot to lot. Therefore different results as you can see.
I'm curious where you got this info from. I shoot TTSX when I need to anchor something right there and aim for a shoulder that is in line with the heart/lungs. I want to dive into you claim further. I'm not trying to call you out on B.S. I just want to make sure I don't have a false sense of security when I've just been lucky. If Barnes' Quality Control can't do better than this, I'd like to know.
Dave Scovill has not been the editor of Handloader for almost a decade. Randy Brooks solved the problem of inconsistent batches of copper once the bullets started selling well enough for Barnes to afford to buy more consistent bullets.
The biggie that I've noticed (and I have been shooting X-Bullets for 30 years now) is that inconsistent expansion problems AFTER they started getting more consistent copper almost always involved bullets of .30 caliber or less--where the hollow-point is noticeably smaller than on TSX's over 30.
Have not experienced any failures to expand with Tipped TSX's, though I know one person who experienced one example. I don't discount that, but just about any controlled-expansion bullet can misbehave once in a great while. I have seen some do things many hunters would not believe unless they were there. But that's rare.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I'm wondering if any manufacturers are experimenting with some of the non-toxic shot metals instead of relying on lead for expansion? I understand the simplicity of a mono-metal but still not convinced with all the "failures" still showing up too frequently. Not that I am out to appease the anti-lead zealots, but if you could combine the higher incidence of reliable expansion that lead delivers in a non-toxic, you could silence the anti-lead crowd but still deliver optimal results. Do any of the gun writers know if this is being pursued?
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
I'm wondering if any manufacturers are experimenting with some of the non-toxic shot metals instead of relying on lead for expansion? I understand the simplicity of a mono-metal but still not convinced with all the "failures" still showing up too frequently. Not that I am out to appease the anti-lead zealots, but if you could combine the higher incidence of reliable expansion that lead delivers in a non-toxic, you could silence the anti-lead crowd but still deliver optimal results. Do any of the gun writers know if this is being pursued?
Some companies are indeed making lead-free bullets which are designed to shed more weight, in order to kill faster. For example, the successful RWS Evolution Green has a "pre-fragmented" front section made of tin:
"The new lead-free EVOLUTION GREEN bullet is especially effective given its outstanding responsiveness. This is achieved through a specially pre-fragmented front core made of tin and the use of RWS' new Speed Tip bullet points which enable an impressive shock effect. This will guarantee humane and successful hunting."
They also offer the newer RWS HIT, which acts more like a Barnes or GMX.
I have been using the TSX, LRX and TTSX bullets since about 2003. I had two weird experiences with one box of 140 grain 7mm TSX's where two of them did not expand. In both cases, I recovered the bullets and their tips had bent on impact, therefore, the bullets did not open at all. They more or less bounced around in the animal like a FMJ at that point.
Other than that, I have used them on Shiras and Yukon moose, several grizzlies, black bear, Dall sheep, caribou, lots of elk, mule deer, whitetails and antelope. I have not experienced any other problems or lost any animals during that time and I have never had one of the tipped versions fail to expand. Some of the animals were very close, including a 360" bull elk that dropped at the shot with a 175 grain LRX from my 30-06 at about 15 yards. Other animals were a bit further out. Several mule deer, antelope and sheep were taken between 200 and 400 yards.
Just last month, I shot a Coues deer buck in southern Arizona using my 30-06 loaded with a 168 TTSX, started at 2950 fps. The buck was hit through the lungs and collapsed at the shot, which was about 400 yards. When I skinned the buck, he had an entry wound the size of a quarter (immediately under the hide) and an exit wound that was about two inches wide. I used the same combination last August to kill two barren ground caribou in the Brooks Range. Both had entry and exit wounds almost identical to the Coues deer. One bull was shot at 180 yards and the other 350 yards.
I have also used many other bullets during this same time period, including Partitions, Accubonds and A-Frames. They all worked, although I have occasionally had something strange crop up with them as well. I once bought a box of 200 grain Accubonds and loaded them in my 300 Weatherby. I fired a shot at mule deer in Wyoming that fall and later that day, when I emptied the magazine, found that several of the white tips had broken off and were under the follower.
Basically, if you use any bullet long enough, you will have some anomalies.
The first great thing is to find yourself and for that you need solitude and contemplation. I can tell you deliverance will not come from the rushing noisy centers of civilization. It will come from the lonely places. Fridtjof Nansen
Randy Brooks solved the problem of inconsistent batches of copper once the bullets started selling well enough for Barnes to afford to buy more consistent bullets.
Sure, and that pic I posted is from ammo manufactured last year.
Had been shooting Nosler partitions and Hornady for interlocs on my elk hunts. Switched over to Barnes 15yrs ago and never looked back. Found out that there is less blood shot meat. My shortest shot was 170yrs cow elk this year double lung shot, 5 steps and dropped. Longest lazer measured shot 445 yrd Washington Roosevelt huge cow elk 210gr tsx 338 lung shot she went 60yrds complete pass through blood trail. Using them in the 270W, 340Wby,378Wby, scary accurate.
"I've made alot of money in my life, most of it spent on guns and women. The rest of it I just wasted."
In 2005 (a year after the TSX appeared, but a couple years before the TTSX) Dave Scovill, Randy and I sat around a campfire on a mule deer hunt, and Randy explained how he'd finally been able to get consistent copper to solve the expansion problem--which also solved bullet-forming problems. I had already noticed that several years before the TSX appeared, when the original, ungrooved X-Bullets started shooting far more consistently, and expanding nicely even a longer ranges on lighter game. On of the loads I'd been using was the 120 X-Bullet at 2950 in a very accurate 6.5x55, and it expanded great on a rib-shot pronghorn buck at around 400 yards.
They did have some problems getting the size of the hollow-point right on smaller-caliber TSX's, but once they did, they expanded well.
Randy and Coni Brooks sold Barnes Bullets somewhere around the time Dave Scovill retired as the editor of the Wolfe magazines, so if the new bullets are having problems it has nothing to do with what Randy told Dave many years ago. Dunno if the folks in charge now aren't as careful about the copper, but your elk bullet expanded quite a bit more than some of the earlier X-Bullets I've seen, and did indeed kill your elk within a typical monolithic run.
In fact I killed a mule deer doe this fall with a right-behind-the shoulder double lung shot with a 140 TTSX from a 7mm-08, and she went more than 60 yards yards before falling, which I have learned to expect now and then even with plastic-tipped monos. It exited so dunno if it didn't expand much, but the lungs were pretty torn up. I didn't expect the bullet to crumple the doe right there, especially at 7mm-08 velocity at 200+ yards, but it was open country and I don't see any reason to shoot up extra meat with a softer bullet just so the animal (might) drop a little quicker. But that's me.
During that same discussion Randy confessed that when he designed the X-Bullet, he thought losing petals would be a pretty good thing. But so many hunters started bragging about 100% weight retention, apparently because they believed it led some sort of magic, that he dinked with the bullets until they tended to retain petals. I also wouldn't mind if they lost petals--since I've seen some that have lost ALL their petals and still killed fine--though normally the death run is still longer than with lead-cores.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
This picture shows the hole made from a 30/175 LRX on the butt of a bull. The LRX opens up a bit more than the TTSX.
I loaded the round for the friend in the pic. 300 WSM at 3K mv, he hit the elk at 200 yds. Like a good friend he called me up to help him haul out of the canyon. It was fun!
"I agree with him. Reason why I like the Partition and Berger."
I may have killed more big game larger than deer with Partitions than any other bullet--partly because they were about the only real option back when I started elk-hunting! Started using the .30-caliber 200 Partition when it was still a lathe-turned "semi-spitzer," though it changed to an impact-extruded spitzer within a year or two. Still one of my favorite big game bullets.
Also have been using Berger hunting bullets for over a dozen years now. In my experience they work great, and my experience (reflected in my hunting notes) drop big game quicker than any other bullet I've seen used--and have seen a few, here and there.
I tend to use lots of different bullets, partly to field-test them, but partly because different bullets work a little better for certain types of hunting. Do prefer Barnes in many situations, whether for extra penetration or less meat damage, but also use a lot of Partitions, and some Bergers for specific hunting.
In addition to Barnes, Bergers and Nosler Partitions, in the past decade have taken big game with Cutting Edge Raptors, Federal Tipped Trophy Bondeds and whatever they use in their "blue box" factory ammo; Hornady ELD-Xs, GMX's, Interlocks, and SSTs; Nosler Ballistic Tips, AccuBonds (including the Long Range version), and E-Tips; and Winchester Power Points to take big game. With one exception they all worked well, though some particular models in any line worked better than others, partly because some are made somewhat differently for various purposes, even though they're still "named" the same thing. Which is another thing discovered when trying a bunch of bullets and not depending on examples of one.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
That is a 270/130 factory Vor-Tx, shot into a cow elk at 60 yards. Shot center punched the lungs, the bullet was recovered on opposite hide. Cow ran a good 60 yards.
[
I would be okay with a 60 yard run. I am surprised that the bullet didn’t pass through. I wonder if it might have been tumbling after impact.
Used to us Partitions prior to. 1994. Since then have used Barnes mono's 100% for elk. Found the mono's to be unquestionably more accurate. Plus when bone is encountered mono's do not blood shot, ruin the meat like the explosive tip of the partitions do. Also have found the mono's far out penetrate the partition particularly when bone is struck. Partition's have also now become more expensive than the Barnes mono.
Yes, of course, they lose their petals all the time!
NPs typically retain the majority of their expanded mass losing but a small portion.
If you can find a NP that has lost/severed virtually all expanded mass at the shoulder junction of the partition, you should share a photo.
NPs just can't compete with monos that have a higher retained weight after turning into what is effectively a FN solid.
mr.Nosler started the ball rolling in regards to [expanding bullet] retained weight and penetration performance for magnum velocities on large heavy built game,...he did a relatively great job but he didn't perfect it.
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
More bullets tumble most hunters realize--one reason many are sideways under the hide when recovered, or even bass-ackwards.
I recall seeing NPs that tumbled in dangerous game losing the rear core.
something one don't have to worry about with monos.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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