Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Speed vs Energy?

Neutrinos are not zero mass, just very small mass. Yes, this is reductio ad absurdum, taking things to an extreme to make a point – a perfectly valid method by the way. If speed was the most important thing, neutrinos would kill you dead.

But speed is not the most important thing. Energy transfer (work done) is the important thing. And energy transfer requires energy.



What we know is that for a 100g TTSX to have the same energy as a 3150fps 300g bullet (6611ft-lbs), the 100g bullet would have to be moving at 5456fps. I’m no expert, but I don’t think any current cartridge can move one that fast.

The photo shows an exit hole so less than 100% of the 300g bullet’s energy was transferred to the deer in the form of destructive work. We don’t know how much energy was transferred to the deer but the amount of destruction possible is limited by the total amount of energy available. You cannot do more work than you have energy to do the work.

What we DO know is that a 100g bullet at 5456fps could have done the same amount of destructive work IF the same amount of energy was transferred to the deer.

The question, however, is not whether a 100g bullet could have done the same amount of damage, but rather “How much energy is required to do a lethal amount of destructive work?” The 300g bullet obviously had enough, and yes, even a 100g bullet with half or less the energy would probably have far more than enough as well.

The 300g bullet killed the deer dead. How much deader would it have been if a 100g bullet was, in your words, ‘more effective’?

Ah. Didn't hear the parodies or don't remember them.

Yes, but how many neutrinos?

Has anyone chambered a rifle in these new neutrinos?

How would they work for shot placement, like a bears ass?

Are they going to discuss at SHOT 2020?

Yes +2

Just to muddify the speed and energy discussion...maybe bullet rotation works to create a wound channel with a fragmenting bullet?
I had always thought the Cutting Edge mth bullet , shedding its petals( at high rpm) would be devastating on elk, and the base keeps on going. The Nosler partition do the same thing.
I have not tried the mth on elk but have used the NP.
I have not sprinkled any neutrino's over the Nosler Partition handloads , either...and they worked well
Cheers

If I shoot a deer sized critter with a 300 grain bullet that produces 6000 lbs of energy and it enters the rib cage at 3000 fps and exits at 2500 fps I have only used around 500 lbs of energy in the animal. This is when energy becomes largely irrelevant because while it is there it isn't used inside the animal. Large caliber, heavy bullets tend to do just that IME.

A 257 weatherby with a 100 grain bullet that enters a deer sized critter at 3000 fps and doesn't exit uses all of its energy in the animal.

So the question is was it the speed that did the work or was it the energy???

If I shoot a deer with a full metal jacket bullet with 2500 lbs of energy or shoot a deer with a hornady eld with 2500 lbs of energy which bullet is less likely to exit and which bullet destroyed vitals to a greater degree???? Both bullets are traveling the same exact speed so why does one bullet do a LOT MORE DAMAGE! Just maybe its because of how each bullet "Utilizes its available Energy"

If speed was a relevant number or even consistent number it would produce comparable wound channels at given velocities with different bullets but "It Doesnt"!

I would beg to differ that the amount of "Energy" that is deposited inside of an animal so long as it is inside the vitals has a greater correlation than speed ever will.

I also think it is noteworthy that Berger Bullets that deposit "All of there available Energy" inside the vitals and often don't exit have been noted by many experts around the world to be the quickest killing bullet that has ever been produced.

It is also noteworthy that full metal jacket bullets that deposit the least amount of energy in an animal are the slowest killing bullets

some considerations: spin rates usually given in rpm would make more sense if they were quoted in the short time of flight of the bullets.

regardless of the spin rate the actual rotation the bullet makes is based on the twist. ex. a 1 in 8 twist must still travel 8 inch thru the animal to complete 1 rotation.

If the angular torque moment on the bullet was significantly higher than retention from the "jacket" it would be a different case,

solid wouldn't have this problem.

while the relationship between energy and speed are

v (speed) = square root of 2(E)/m and ke=1/2mv^2

The correlation between them and "knockdown" or killing power has so many variables I wish somebody would figure it out. So I could get a bunch of those bullets.

if you have never shot a rifle that has higher than normal velocities on a animal, you probably don`t understand what happens or have seen what happens to a deer.my son now understands what happens after a few years hunting deer in Minnesota and out west,he has shoot bucks with his 308 Win. cartridge 165 grain and killed these deer but all ran aways but less than 100 yards , i finally talked him into using his 257 Weatherby Mag. for the last 2 years for every day he hunted ,all 4 bucks he shot in those 2 years either fell over or hubbled away about 40 feet and fell over dead. the 308 WIN.cartridge with the 165 grain bullet speed was around 2800 fps ,his 257 Weatherby cartridge with a 100 grain bullet went 3800 fps and he did shoot some of the bucks much farther away also with the 257 W.Mag. all fell within site never farther than 40 feet. all were shot in the lung area either out the window of a deer stand or off a bi-pod out west and he shoots extreme well too.here is another small but great factor with speed of 3800 fps 500-600- yards is not that difficult to Kentucky windage when your in a hurry with a shot and alone with atleast a bi-pod. so using a normal 30 caliber 165 gr. bullet going 2800 fps verses a 25 caliber 100 grain bullet going 3800 fps which way you wanna go is up to each person but my self i will still choice speed and now so will my son. we only hunt deer with a Ruger#1 in a 257 Weatherby Mag. same type rifle as my son we both know with this cartridge on deer one shot is all it takes to down a nice buck. with respect hope you all have had a great fall hunting,Pete53

After reading this entire thread, it’s become clear. I’m going to build a custom, high-velocity BB gun. At 17,000 fps I can generate as much energy as a 180 gr. bullet out of a 30-06. 😁

There has been study and proof of high impact velocity induced hydostatic shock. While bullet weights may vary, creating hydrostatic shock from small to medium bores takes impact velocities of approx. 2,600 fps on up. When considering DRT and impact velocity with shots landing in frontal area, hydrostatic shock will take effect on the CNS and brain functions even from a wound a distance away from those vital extremities. The imparted hydrostatic shock wave sent from the wound can disrupt all animal electrical motor functions rendering an animal pole-axed without actually hitting the spinal area or brain. It is possible that the animal is still very much alive, but in a comatose state from that blow. The other aspect of the kill is the hydraulic shock. You can have both, but you will always have hydraulic shock. The wound channel itself propelling bodily liquids throughout in a pulsing wave. This creates blood loss, blood pressure spikes contributes to a quick death combined with the effects of bullet destruction of organs, lungs, liver, heart, etc. So hydrostatic shock typically shows a quick animal collapse (excluding brain and spinal shots, which are a given), however it is hydraulic shock that renders death. As far as energy, I'm quite sure you could rationalize that higher energy levels, which are pretty much proportional to higher velocity levels can equate to creating greater disruption (ft-lbs of energy radiating in waves of hydrostatic and hydraulic shock). One things for certain, you need high impact velocity to induce hydrostatic shock, that's a fact. Animals always die from hydraulic shock, sometimes right there on the spot and others escape and succumb in their last hiding place.

Can you provide a link or source for these studies you're citing? Also, a discussion of how hydrostatic shock waves propagate through air-filled lungs?

I've killed a number of elk and deer with muzzleloader bullets leaving the muzzle at around 1,500 fps.

If animals always die from "hydraulic shock," and impact velocities of 2,600 fps on up (as you say) are needed to cause it, how do you explain the death of these animals?

Was it divine intervention?

You need to reread what I wrote, I didn't say you needed hydrostatic shock induced 2,600 fps velocity to kill an animal. Hydraulic shock is a given from wound channel that's what your 1,500 fps muzzle loader delivered, tissue damage and bleeding, which is a function of hydraulic shock. Again I said you could have both but will always have a hydraulic shock event, hence loss of blood, immediate blood pressure spikes. This assumes at a minimum your muzzle loader offered up a wound channel.

I think you need to re-read what you wrote. Start with the part I quoted and go from there.

Well, I've also killed them with arrows. Is that a hydraulic shock event too?

rossi

yes, those are not new studies. They've been referenced or quoted here on the fire.
Some still believe the world is flat.


Jerry

Neutrinos behave like a wave because of their mass, more than anything. Of course approaching the speed of light plays a part, but the mass contributes 29 orders of magnitude more to the wavelength than the speed does. Even their mass is a superposition of 3 different mass states.


Not really. The observation collapses the wave function, but the measurement doesn't instantly disappear. Look at the "which path" paradox; any form of collapsing the wave function to determine which path a particle takes destroys wavelike interference for more than just instantaneous time durations.


Yes, it's the work done on the animals vital tissues that kills. And work is a sum of the force applied over the displacement of the tissue. And force is the time-rate-of-change of the momentum. Only the momentum and energy that are directly involved in displacing vital tissue are useful for killing.


Not exactly. Energy can be transferred from the bullet to the animal's tissues in forms that do not contribute to the animal dying. The expanding bullet generates heat which can be transferred to the animal's tissues non-lethally, it can generate sound waves which are transferred to the tissue, etc. Only the energy involved in displacing tissue by means of a change in momentum over short periods of time is related to killing power.





No, energy and momentum are not both conserved in an inelastic collision such as a bullet hitting flesh. Momentum is conserved, but energy is not because there is energy "lost" from the system as heat, sound, etc.



The rapid increase in the moment of inertia of the bullet upon expansion, combined with the very high angular velocity, is certainly significant in terms of transferring lateral momentum to the surrounding tissues, whether by means of fragmentation or the petals of the primary projectile. The torque moment is higher than the retention force of the jacket when any degree of fragmentation occurs.



This. Ultimately, the kinetic energy that the bullet arrives on target with can be used in so many different ways; to deform and displace tissue, to create sound, to generate heat, to displace the hillside behind the critter, to increase the kinetic or gravitational potential energy of the animal, etc. Only a subset of that energy is used to perform the work of killing caused by displacing and deforming vital tissue, and there are so many variables involved in determining exactly how much energy is used for killing by each bullet, that using the kinetic energy at impact as a metric of killing power is essentially meaningless.

Can't see your point.

Hydrostatic Shock: Typically induced at 2,600 fps effecting neuro-electric bodily functions from impact velocity at that velocity rate.

Hydraulic Shock: Directly related to blood loss, blood pressure and organ damage.

Two distinct shocks, one of which typically happens at impact velocities above 2,600 fps, the other which always happens no matter what the velocity is. If you have a hit and a wound channel even from a muzzleloader at 1,500 fps you have induced the hydraulic shock event.

With all due respect, your muzzleloader never created hydrostatic shock, only hydraulic and many game animals have been harvested without a hydrostatic shock event. Most of those would not be considered as "pole-axed" unless brain or spinal (CNS) shot.