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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Originally Posted by jwp475



I've made my living with steel for 48 years and have no idea what "pig iron" is. I suspect it is a slang term.



Even our CM rifles have pig iron in them--AKA carbon steel. It's a common term for the pellets that most steel and it's alloys start with.



Wrong.

"Pig iron is an intermediate product of the iron industry, also known as crude iron, which is obtained by smelting iron ore in a blast furnace. Pig iron has a very high carbon content, typically 3.8–4.7%,[1] along with silica and other constituents of dross, which makes it very brittle and not useful directly as a material except for limited applications."



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Bonofied? Sonny-approved?

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Originally Posted by mathman
Is titanium a good material for parts that rub against each other? I'm not so sure about that.


Pretty sure I read somewhere that it's not. I believe it was in reference to its use in rifle actions.

Don't hold me to that, as I'm Pretty Old.


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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by Higbean
Huskemaw - now with plow steel!


It does sound like a brand of farm tractor.


Made in Poland.


Originally Posted by 16penny
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Originally Posted by Pappy348
Originally Posted by mathman
Is titanium a good material for parts that rub against each other? I'm not so sure about that.


Pretty sure I read somewhere that it's not. I believe it was in reference to its use in rifle actions.

Don't hold me to that, as I'm Pretty Old.


Titanium galls.


Originally Posted by 16penny
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Originally Posted by Whttail_in_MT
Bonofied? Sonny-approved?

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Yeah, I figured the cowboy didn't know Latin; pig Latin or pig iron; take you pig, I mean pick. Then again, maybe he was just playing.

Or maybe he was talking about Fibonacci numbers.

I think he was trying to say "bona fides".

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Originally Posted by jwp475



Wrong.

"Pig iron is an intermediate product of the iron industry, also known as crude iron, which is obtained by smelting iron ore in a blast furnace. Pig iron has a very high carbon content, typically 3.8–4.7%,[1] along with silica and other constituents of dross, which makes it very brittle and not useful directly as a material except for limited applications."



Sigh......

"Pig iron is used for making steel and pure iron units. It has very high carbon content along with silica and another constituent of dross. Pig iron made from smelting iron inducts with the high amount of carbon for further processing steps."

"The name 'pig iron' originated in the early days of iron-ore reduction when the total output of the blast furnace was sand cast into 'pigs' —a mass of iron roughly resembling the shape of a reclining pig."

"Chromoly steel is actually alloy steel grade 4130. The “30” at the end of the grade number designates that it has approximately 0.30% carbon by weight. The added chromium and molybdenum help to give the steel different properties from its mild steel counterpart, AISI 1030, even though they have the same percentage of carbon."



Now, the subject of this thread is about heavy scopes that dial reliably.


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Originally Posted by kingston
Originally Posted by Pappy348
Originally Posted by mathman
Is titanium a good material for parts that rub against each other? I'm not so sure about that.


Pretty sure I read somewhere that it's not. I believe it was in reference to its use in rifle actions.

Don't hold me to that, as I'm Pretty Old.


Titanium galls.


There's the problem with dumbed-down blanket statements like that - it's true about one condition, but not everything, but people repeat stuff like that without bothering to learn the truth. It's no more accurate than "aluminum galls" or "stainless galls" which are also true in certain conditions.

Most grades of titanium can tend to gall against titanium. But, it works very well without galling against steel and other metals. It can potentially be a very good material for scope internals, but the material itself is expensive, and it's even more expensive to machine parts from it. It'd work, but would people pay for it? Some would, for sure, as we see from other titanium parts in the gun industry.

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put titanium internals in a 34mm tube lol then c clamp to the light pole .


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Originally Posted by cumminscowboy
You guys are funny. All 225 pounds of me can hang off the thing, yes I checked. What do I gotta do break out the mig welder? It’s ok this time the video is going to be inside the scope, You will know it if there is a problem


Did your fat ass use an indicator to verify it didn't move, tubby?

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Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by kingston
Originally Posted by Pappy348
Originally Posted by mathman
Is titanium a good material for parts that rub against each other? I'm not so sure about that.


Pretty sure I read somewhere that it's not. I believe it was in reference to its use in rifle actions.

Don't hold me to that, as I'm Pretty Old.


Titanium galls.


There's the problem with dumbed-down blanket statements like that - it's true about one condition, but not everything, but people repeat stuff like that without bothering to learn the truth. It's no more accurate than "aluminum galls" or "stainless galls" which are also true in certain conditions.

Most grades of titanium can tend to gall against titanium. But, it works very well without galling against steel and other metals. It can potentially be a very good material for scope internals, but the material itself is expensive, and it's even more expensive to machine parts from it. It'd work, but would people pay for it? Some would, for sure, as we see from other titanium parts in the gun industry.



The increase in cost of Ti internals is negligible when compared to the overall price of a quality scope. You're talking maybe $5 for Ti compared to $0.50-$1.00 for brass or aluminum stock material to machine the internal parts. Yes, 5-10x the cost but still only $4 added overall.

As to the machining of Ti, it used to be an issue years ago but with modern 5 axis cnc, better programming, high speed spindles, new coatings on tooling etc. etc. Ti is being machined on a regular basis all over the world with little issues.

I'm sure the manufacturers have already looked at Ti and skipped it for reasons than cost or some inferred complications of machining.


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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Originally Posted by jwp475



Wrong.

"Pig iron is an intermediate product of the iron industry, also known as crude iron, which is obtained by smelting iron ore in a blast furnace. Pig iron has a very high carbon content, typically 3.8–4.7%,[1] along with silica and other constituents of dross, which makes it very brittle and not useful directly as a material except for limited applications."



Sigh......

"Pig iron is used for making steel and pure iron units. It has very high carbon content along with silica and another constituent of dross. Pig iron made from smelting iron inducts with the high amount of carbon for further processing steps."

"The name 'pig iron' originated in the early days of iron-ore reduction when the total output of the blast furnace was sand cast into 'pigs' —a mass of iron roughly resembling the shape of a reclining pig."

"Chromoly steel is actually alloy steel grade 4130. The “30” at the end of the grade number designates that it has approximately 0.30% carbon by weight. The added chromium and molybdenum help to give the steel different properties from its mild steel counterpart, AISI 1030, even though they have the same percentage of carbon."



Now, the subject of this thread is about heavy scopes that dial reliably.



Your use of the term pig Iron was and is incorrect



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Originally Posted by SBTCO
Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by kingston


Titanium galls.


There's the problem with dumbed-down blanket statements like that - it's true about one condition, but not everything, but people repeat stuff like that without bothering to learn the truth. It's no more accurate than "aluminum galls" or "stainless galls" which are also true in certain conditions.

Most grades of titanium can tend to gall against titanium. But, it works very well without galling against steel and other metals. It can potentially be a very good material for scope internals, but the material itself is expensive, and it's even more expensive to machine parts from it. It'd work, but would people pay for it? Some would, for sure, as we see from other titanium parts in the gun industry.



The increase in cost of Ti internals is negligible when compared to the overall price of a quality scope. You're talking maybe $5 for Ti compared to $0.50-$1.00 for brass or aluminum stock material to machine the internal parts. Yes, 5-10x the cost but still only $4 added overall.

As to the machining of Ti, it used to be an issue years ago but with modern 5 axis cnc, better programming, high speed spindles, new coatings on tooling etc. etc. Ti is being machined on a regular basis all over the world with little issues.

I'm sure the manufacturers have already looked at Ti and skipped it for reasons than cost or some inferred complications of machining.



I machine Ti myself and am well familiar with it, and also have an engineering career that deals with manufacturing and am familiar with that side of things too. I would not make that assumption in your last statement. Ti can absolutely be used for scope internals if people wanted to pay for it, but it would definitely increase the cost. You don't think places like SWFA use brass internals because it's the best material available, do you? They use it because it's cheap to manufacture their scope internals that way and they aren't trying to build a light weight scope.

One example of Ti not galling in regular use is suppressor threads, like on my Gemtech .22 LR suppressor which has a Titanium insert for the barrel mating threads. Ti is used there because it is resistant to wear against steel for repeated installations and removals, and it definitely does not gall in that application. I've used it for the same purpose on my own suppressor builds with great results. The galling is really only an issue with Ti on Ti, and even that is not as bad as a lot of 300-series stainless steels, and can be alleviated by lubricating the surfaces.

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Originally Posted by drover
I keep reading that in order for scopes to track and dial well they need to be heavy - SWFA or Nightforce for example.

It seems to be taken as gospel, my question is - WHY???

I understand that a thicker aluminum tube may be more resistant to bending or bumping damage but dialing and tracking are a function of the mechanics of the scope.
If the internals are machined properly and have erector springs heavy enough to assure enough pressure on the erector tube to place and keep it in position how much could this possibly add to the weight of the scope? Even if the adjustment assembly were made slightly larger and the springs slightly larger how much weight could that add? Not more than another ounce or two I would think.

So why do we not have a lightweight scope like a Leupold that tracks as well as the old 1980's El Paso Weaver T series scopes? I doubt that there are any unexpired patents on the Micro-tract system - it seems to me that a Leupold with the Micro-tract system would be the best of all worlds.

drover



You should try to contact Nightforce and speak to one their design engineers. If you can get through to one, you'll get the answers you are seeking.

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Well, there's also the guts, pig or otherwise, that secures the lenses in place, no?

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Amazing thread, and not because of actual info.

In fact, JFC, if you'll excuse the term (which might means Just For Consideration, but doesn't).


There's a new sheriff in town and it's obvious you're going to have to up your scope testing game.


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Once you've solved the issue of your titanium galling on your pig iron and have an erector assembly capable of precise adjustments, now, and over time, you still have to hang it and mount the lenses so they stay where you want them, under repeated recoil and other outside impacts. That's going to require a certain amount of material to reliably hold screws or other fasteners and maybe adhesives that will hold up under the same forces and that don't break down and futz things up by running or depositing vapor where you don't want it, or letting little crumbs loose to gum up the works. At some point, clever engineering and exotic materials run you up against the unyielding wall of cost vs benefit and if you want people to actually buy your scope, not just marvel at it, you might just have to opt for heavy over tricky. Even very expensive scopes that have proven to be reliable are all pretty beefy, and I doubt it's because they skimped on materials or engineering, but rather because it's what's required. They certainly aren't concerned much with keeping the price down.

As buyers and users, we can keep the weight down by opting for simple designs sans giant turrets, side focus, illumination, and big honkin' objectives, most of which are of limited usefulness in putting meat in the freezer, which, if I can remember back that far, seemed to be what the OP was looking for. Even the simple models from outfits like S&B are pretty heavy I've noticed, which should tell us something.

Last edited by Pappy348; 12/14/19.

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Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by SBTCO
Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by kingston


Titanium galls.


There's the problem with dumbed-down blanket statements like that - it's true about one condition, but not everything, but people repeat stuff like that without bothering to learn the truth. It's no more accurate than "aluminum galls" or "stainless galls" which are also true in certain conditions.

Most grades of titanium can tend to gall against titanium. But, it works very well without galling against steel and other metals. It can potentially be a very good material for scope internals, but the material itself is expensive, and it's even more expensive to machine parts from it. It'd work, but would people pay for it? Some would, for sure, as we see from other titanium parts in the gun industry.



The increase in cost of Ti internals is negligible when compared to the overall price of a quality scope. You're talking maybe $5 for Ti compared to $0.50-$1.00 for brass or aluminum stock material to machine the internal parts. Yes, 5-10x the cost but still only $4 added overall.

As to the machining of Ti, it used to be an issue years ago but with modern 5 axis cnc, better programming, high speed spindles, new coatings on tooling etc. etc. Ti is being machined on a regular basis all over the world with little issues.

I'm sure the manufacturers have already looked at Ti and skipped it for reasons than cost or some inferred complications of machining.



I machine Ti myself and am well familiar with it, and also have an engineering career that deals with manufacturing and am familiar with that side of things too. I would not make that assumption in your last statement. Ti can absolutely be used for scope internals if people wanted to pay for it, but it would definitely increase the cost. You don't think places like SWFA use brass internals because it's the best material available, do you? They use it because it's cheap to manufacture their scope internals that way and they aren't trying to build a light weight scope.

One example of Ti not galling in regular use is suppressor threads, like on my Gemtech .22 LR suppressor which has a Titanium insert for the barrel mating threads. Ti is used there because it is resistant to wear against steel for repeated installations and removals, and it definitely does not gall in that application. I've used it for the same purpose on my own suppressor builds with great results. The galling is really only an issue with Ti on Ti, and even that is not as bad as a lot of 300-series stainless steels, and can be alleviated by lubricating the surfaces.


I wasn't thinking of the galling issue, more along the lines of thermal expansion/contraction due to temp changes in different materials. I don't know just guessing.

So what would the difference in time/cost be to machine Ti vs brass? The materials cost, as I said, in percentage terms is high, but actual cost is only a few dollars more per unit of material for each part. I just don't see how the labor is going to be so much more working with Ti that a manufacturer is going to avoid using it over brass to meet a price point for customers when we're talking maybe a $20 increase(if that) for a scope that comes in at less wt.?.. especially in today's world of gram counting mountain hunters? Maybe not enough pressure yet from customers to get manufacturers building lt. wt. scopes that function properly as do the NF and SWFA ss's?






Last edited by SBTCO; 12/14/19.

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Wrapped around the axle about galling? How About brass deforming. Brass isn’t designed to be a wear metal. I would rather worry about galling than the softness of brass even if the weight was the same

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