Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Lyman No 21 SA

Recently acquired a Lyman No 21 to add to my sight collection. It was not complete but had most of the major parts. In the same box of sight parts I found a partial Lyman No 33 for a Krag, it uses the same pointer assembly as the No 21 and that was present, the aperture piece was missing so I was going to just part it out. I realized I had a complete elevation arm assembly, which I originally bought for parts, that was for a Lyman No 34, it's the micrometer windage adjustable version of the No 33 so I could make a complete No 34 using that and I have a Krag (I'm now looking for a spare left side plate for a Krag so I can mount the No 34). Completing two sights made this much more of a project than originally intended.








The catalogs mention that these sights do not need to be tightened, the small ridge on the underside of the pointer snaps into the grooves in the sight and will hold it in place (not very secure though). The pointer is slotted for fine adjustment but is only held in place by the small screw with just one full thread engaged in the thin spring. I used larger screws than the original, but they were still almost to small to work with - #1-64's, originals appear to be fractional, 1/16", and with only a couple threads were impossible to measure for thread pitch.

The lever is held in place by two set screws the fit indentations on the threaded sleeve, this one was damaged from being turned to far with the set screws cutting through the indentations. There is a missing short pin that goes in the rear of the lever to limit how far it can turn, that may be the reason.



done except for the pin in the lever.


The No 38 with micrometer windage adjustment was patented July 25, 1899 according to 'Old Gunsights' but it is still not listed in the 1902 catalog so there may never have been a version of it made for the 1899's since later listings do not have the 1899's listed. CORRECTION found the patent, it is for a windage version WRONG ->The patent may not have applied to the No 38 directly.


PS to others posting pictures, there are 7 pictures posted here and previously the maximum in a single post was 6, I found you can now have 10.

AGAIN Gene! Your talent and determination are astounding! You are single-handedly keeping the art of gunsight-making (and pump 22s, and 22 magazines, and 1920 repair, and....) alive for another generation!

(...do You fix old pocket watches too?)

That sight has a lot of small parts and seems more complicated than it looks. Pretty amazing you could make a complete sight out of some spare parts. Very interesting post. I know were to go for info on iron sights, thanks.

Thanks again, Gene, for your masterful tutorial.

In addition to pocket watches, could I interest you in the fascinating/complex/frustrating world of British SU carburetors too?

An 1899D Lincoln Head cent?

Hah! I missed that! Gene may be up to some photoshopping tricks!

Tricky bugger. Have to pay more attention. Glad someone is keeping him honest.

Is that 21 made for the 99? The 21 is hard enough to find for any rifle let alone the 99.

Yes, I guess I only mention it's the SA coded version in the title and then show that in the one picture of the rear of the sight. You can quickly identify the version for the 1899 but the rearward sweep of the sight, all other versions continue up at about the same angle as they wrap around the receiver top, also most of the other versions I've seen have some reliefs on the underside to clear the ends of screws in the receivers.

These do not seem to have been offered very long for the 1899's. My opinion on these is they offer advantages only on exposed hammer guns, especially ones where the bolt extends a long way out the rear of the receiver when cycling which requires a more tradition type tang sight to be positioned back where it interferes with your thumb. For use on an 1899 I see no advantage over other type sights and only some disadvantages. At one time they were also offered for Remington Model 14's, the last listings for these only mention Marlin & Winchester lever actions. I have a 1930 A. G. Parker catalog that list the No 38 (the windage version) for the Remington Model 14 as "suitable for the BSA repeater" (a pump 22).

How many do we know of that are mounted? Loggah has one, 1899Sav has one or more.. I recently ran into one.

Others?

I have one that was taken off a 303 SRC (approx. 1905) carbine about 30 years ago and has sat in my sight box ever since. Ring and staple had been removed to allow this sight to be attached.
BillR

GeneB;

Just recently an 1895 Winchester followed me home, built in 1904 it looks to be correct and un-modified.

The Lyman 21 it's wearing isn't complete. While I have found a new pointer and pointer screw, I'm still looking
for a pointer spring and the small knurled rivet at the lower left corner.

I've located an outfit in Maine that can make the pointer spring but don't know about the rivet.

Would you be willing to steer me towards a source for these parts?

Thanks

I made the parts you mention because I could not find a source. If the the pointer & screw you got are original or the same as originals I think they are an obsolete fractional thread size, 1/16" diameter of unknown thread pitch, so the spring has to be threaded for that. I could not find an easy way to replicate the original size, so as I mentioned I used a slightly larger screw, a #1-64. I made extra sets but my springs will not take an original size screw. I could not find a source for 1/16" taps and dies or screws that size, since you have the screws I think a M1.6 x .35 metric tap would be close enough since the spring is so thin you will only have a about 1 full thread, this metric size will be only 0.0005" larger in diameter and 72½ TPI which is in the range most of these small screws have. If I had a source for original size screws I would have tried this, finding screws were a big issue for me, if I could have found some like you did it would have saved me a lot of time & headaches!

The rivet was turned on a lathe and a couple fine circular grooves added & then I hit with a very fine single wheel knurling tool at different angles to get the checked pattern go around the curved surface.

The screws I used started as #1-64 Allen head socket screws (which I already had for some forgotten reason), I put them in a hole drilled in some steel, hit the head with a TIG welder to melt out the socket & then hit them with a BFH while still red hot to flatten the head. The slot was added with the thinnest DREMEL cutting wheel I could find, they were finished by chucking the threaded end in a drill and filling them to size & contour .... and you found some!

Look on eBay last week someone had parts for a Lyman # 21 for sale

I have an insane amount of teeny tiny screws of that nature, many sizes and head shapes, which I inherited from a predecessor when I took over my shop at the school. I'll not take an inventory, but the next time y'all are faced with making that sort of thing give me a shout first. Lots of tiny taps in the melange, too. I think the guy before me was into watch/clock making/repair.

Note: like everybody else, I'm sheltering in place and don't know when I'll regain access to the stuff.

Kind of OT here. I bought a #21 copy for my original Winchester 1886 in 33 Winchester. Haven't had the heart to drill and tap the gun. It is beat up and someone rebarrelled it and reblued right over the beat up parts with the tang bent etc. I was glad to see you guys talking about them. Oh. and I noticed the 1899 on the penny. Be Well, Rustyzipper.

A couple O' questers.

The plug with threads on each end of itself.... What thread size are they ?

I assume the heavier ( courser ) thread screws into the collar , but what does the finer thread on the bottom of the plug screw into .... a nut behind the frame of the sight?

The main frame of the sight must ride up and down until pinched by the lever and associated apparatus which remains stationary.?

These sites have been in my view for many years because they look real nice on a rifle , but they have always been too much dough , and like rusty says you have to drill the receiver for them.

Nice job Gene .

I did not measure the course thread, the fine thread I did, I got #10-32, I threaded the pivot screw the same as that - those both thread into tapped holes in the receiver - so two extra holes required in the receiver and the sight is in direct contact with the receiver where it clamps, I've found no indication that any used a washer or spacer under the sight, you can see the wear marks on the underside in one of the pictures above.