Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Barnes bullet... are you completely sold?

That information came from Dave Scoville, editor of Handloader.

How recent was the article?

SU35,

Dave Scovill has not been the editor of Handloader for almost a decade. Randy Brooks solved the problem of inconsistent batches of copper once the bullets started selling well enough for Barnes to afford to buy more consistent bullets.

The biggie that I've noticed (and I have been shooting X-Bullets for 30 years now) is that inconsistent expansion problems AFTER they started getting more consistent copper almost always involved bullets of .30 caliber or less--where the hollow-point is noticeably smaller than on TSX's over 30.

Have not experienced any failures to expand with Tipped TSX's, though I know one person who experienced one example. I don't discount that, but just about any controlled-expansion bullet can misbehave once in a great while. I have seen some do things many hunters would not believe unless they were there. But that's rare.

I still would like to know what the expanded frontal area of that bullet measures ?

It’s also pretty amazing to me that that bullet with minimal expansion still put an elk down in 60 yds .

I'm wondering if any manufacturers are experimenting with some of the non-toxic shot metals instead of relying on lead for expansion? I understand the simplicity of a mono-metal but still not convinced with all the "failures" still showing up too frequently. Not that I am out to appease the anti-lead zealots, but if you could combine the higher incidence of reliable expansion that lead delivers in a non-toxic, you could silence the anti-lead crowd but still deliver optimal results.
Do any of the gun writers know if this is being pursued?

Some companies are indeed making lead-free bullets which are designed to shed more weight, in order to kill faster. For example, the successful RWS Evolution Green has a "pre-fragmented" front section made of tin:

"The new lead-free EVOLUTION GREEN bullet is especially effective given its outstanding responsiveness. This is achieved through a specially pre-fragmented front core made of tin and the use of RWS' new Speed Tip bullet points which enable an impressive shock effect. This will guarantee humane and successful hunting."

They also offer the newer RWS HIT, which acts more like a Barnes or GMX.

I have been using the TSX, LRX and TTSX bullets since about 2003. I had two weird experiences with one box of 140 grain 7mm TSX's where two of them did not expand. In both cases, I recovered the bullets and their tips had bent on impact, therefore, the bullets did not open at all. They more or less bounced around in the animal like a FMJ at that point.

Other than that, I have used them on Shiras and Yukon moose, several grizzlies, black bear, Dall sheep, caribou, lots of elk, mule deer, whitetails and antelope. I have not experienced any other problems or lost any animals during that time and I have never had one of the tipped versions fail to expand. Some of the animals were very close, including a 360" bull elk that dropped at the shot with a 175 grain LRX from my 30-06 at about 15 yards. Other animals were a bit further out. Several mule deer, antelope and sheep were taken between 200 and 400 yards.

Just last month, I shot a Coues deer buck in southern Arizona using my 30-06 loaded with a 168 TTSX, started at 2950 fps. The buck was hit through the lungs and collapsed at the shot, which was about 400 yards. When I skinned the buck, he had an entry wound the size of a quarter (immediately under the hide) and an exit wound that was about two inches wide. I used the same combination last August to kill two barren ground caribou in the Brooks Range. Both had entry and exit wounds almost identical to the Coues deer. One bull was shot at 180 yards and the other 350 yards.

I have also used many other bullets during this same time period, including Partitions, Accubonds and A-Frames. They all worked, although I have occasionally had something strange crop up with them as well. I once bought a box of 200 grain Accubonds and loaded them in my 300 Weatherby. I fired a shot at mule deer in Wyoming that fall and later that day, when I emptied the magazine, found that several of the white tips had broken off and were under the follower.

Basically, if you use any bullet long enough, you will have some anomalies.

WOW.... Chet... Great stories... Great testimonies. I wish I had been following you around with a video camera.

Sure, and that pic I posted is from ammo manufactured last year.

So what happened?

Had been shooting Nosler partitions and Hornady for interlocs on my elk hunts. Switched over to Barnes 15yrs ago and never looked back. Found out that there is less blood shot meat. My shortest shot was 170yrs cow elk this year double lung shot, 5 steps and dropped. Longest lazer measured shot 445 yrd Washington Roosevelt huge cow elk 210gr tsx 338 lung shot she went 60yrds complete pass through blood trail. Using them in the 270W, 340Wby,378Wby, scary accurate.

In 2005 (a year after the TSX appeared, but a couple years before the TTSX) Dave Scovill, Randy and I sat around a campfire on a mule deer hunt, and Randy explained how he'd finally been able to get consistent copper to solve the expansion problem--which also solved bullet-forming problems. I had already noticed that several years before the TSX appeared, when the original, ungrooved X-Bullets started shooting far more consistently, and expanding nicely even a longer ranges on lighter game. On of the loads I'd been using was the 120 X-Bullet at 2950 in a very accurate 6.5x55, and it expanded great on a rib-shot pronghorn buck at around 400 yards.

They did have some problems getting the size of the hollow-point right on smaller-caliber TSX's, but once they did, they expanded well.

Randy and Coni Brooks sold Barnes Bullets somewhere around the time Dave Scovill retired as the editor of the Wolfe magazines, so if the new bullets are having problems it has nothing to do with what Randy told Dave many years ago. Dunno if the folks in charge now aren't as careful about the copper, but your elk bullet expanded quite a bit more than some of the earlier X-Bullets I've seen, and did indeed kill your elk within a typical monolithic run.

In fact I killed a mule deer doe this fall with a right-behind-the shoulder double lung shot with a 140 TTSX from a 7mm-08, and she went more than 60 yards yards before falling, which I have learned to expect now and then even with plastic-tipped monos. It exited so dunno if it didn't expand much, but the lungs were pretty torn up. I didn't expect the bullet to crumple the doe right there, especially at 7mm-08 velocity at 200+ yards, but it was open country and I don't see any reason to shoot up extra meat with a softer bullet just so the animal (might) drop a little quicker. But that's me.

During that same discussion Randy confessed that when he designed the X-Bullet, he thought losing petals would be a pretty good thing. But so many hunters started bragging about 100% weight retention, apparently because they believed it led some sort of magic, that he dinked with the bullets until they tended to retain petals. I also wouldn't mind if they lost petals--since I've seen some that have lost ALL their petals and still killed fine--though normally the death run is still longer than with lead-cores.

Interesting history of bullet development for sure. Thank you.




I agree with him.

Reason why I like the Partition and Berger.

For those who are interested.

This picture shows the hole made from a 30/175 LRX on the butt of a bull. The LRX opens up a bit more than the TTSX.

I loaded the round for the friend in the pic. 300 WSM at 3K mv, he hit the elk at 200 yds.
Like a good friend he called me up to help him haul out of the canyon. It was fun!

SU35,

"I agree with him. Reason why I like the Partition and Berger."

I may have killed more big game larger than deer with Partitions than any other bullet--partly because they were about the only real option back when I started elk-hunting! Started using the .30-caliber 200 Partition when it was still a lathe-turned "semi-spitzer," though it changed to an impact-extruded spitzer within a year or two. Still one of my favorite big game bullets.

Also have been using Berger hunting bullets for over a dozen years now. In my experience they work great, and my experience (reflected in my hunting notes) drop big game quicker than any other bullet I've seen used--and have seen a few, here and there.

I tend to use lots of different bullets, partly to field-test them, but partly because different bullets work a little better for certain types of hunting. Do prefer Barnes in many situations, whether for extra penetration or less meat damage, but also use a lot of Partitions, and some Bergers for specific hunting.

In addition to Barnes, Bergers and Nosler Partitions, in the past decade have taken big game with Cutting Edge Raptors, Federal Tipped Trophy Bondeds and whatever they use in their "blue box" factory ammo; Hornady ELD-Xs, GMX's, Interlocks, and SSTs; Nosler Ballistic Tips, AccuBonds (including the Long Range version), and E-Tips; and Winchester Power Points to take big game. With one exception they all worked well, though some particular models in any line worked better than others, partly because some are made somewhat differently for various purposes, even though they're still "named" the same thing. Which is another thing discovered when trying a bunch of bullets and not depending on examples of one.

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I would be okay with a 60 yard run. I am surprised that the bullet didn’t pass through. I wonder if it might have been tumbling after impact.

Theeck,

More bullets tumble most hunters realize--one reason many are sideways under the hide when recovered, or even bass-ackwards.

Used to us Partitions prior to. 1994. Since then have used Barnes mono's 100% for elk. Found the mono's to be unquestionably more accurate. Plus when bone is encountered mono's do not blood shot, ruin the meat like the explosive tip of the partitions do. Also have found the mono's far out penetrate the partition particularly when bone is struck. Partition's have also now become more expensive than the Barnes mono.

do NPs lose their petals?

I've never seen a recovered NP that looked like this mono ..

Yes, of course, they lose their petals all the time!

All 50 petals, in fact I've counted them in every head I've killed.

NPs typically retain the majority of their expanded mass losing but a small portion.

If you can find a NP that has lost/severed virtually all expanded mass at the shoulder junction of the partition,
you should share a photo.

NPs just can't compete with monos that have a higher retained weight after turning into what is effectively a FN solid.

mr.Nosler started the ball rolling in regards to [expanding bullet] retained weight and penetration performance
for magnum velocities on large heavy built game,...he did a relatively great job but he didn't perfect it.




I recall seeing NPs that tumbled in dangerous game losing the rear core.

something one don't have to worry about with monos.