Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Mickey Coleman/gunsmith

Does anyone have rifles that he put together before his passing? Have the potential to get a 280 AI he put together, was looking for feedback.

He had a fine reputation here, and if the rifle is something you want I would not hesitate.

Mickey Coleman, God rest his soul, was a great gunsmith. He built my .280AI and 6BR. They are the most consistently accurate rifles I have ever owned.

Buy with confidence. If Mickey built it the rifle will be a shooter.

Any rifle that Mickey built will be good to go. He built me a 257 Bee, a 25-204, a 250 Savage, and a 257AI. All excellent rifles. Only one I still have is the 25-204.

In the later years, Mickey had a younger man that chambered his rifles under Mickey's supervision (maybe due to eyesight, if I recall correctly). His name escapes me at the moment. Those were all also good to go.

Getting Mickey to build me a rifle was one of those,
"Someday I will...too late now" things for me.

I picked up a 25-284 that Mickey built. It is a very good shooter and I used it to take a buck this fall.

Mickey knew how to make rifles shoot very well.

Sometimes he even helped shooters shoot better. Received my first serious lesson in benchrest shooting 25 years ago from Mickey. Using one of his 6mm PPC rifles, was able to put them all in the same hole at 100 yards.

He's missed. If I ever see his mark on a rifle, I'll try to make it mine.

Mickey Coleman R-700 22-250 - most accurate i own . Period ...

He didn't put his name on any of mine.

Right now I have 5 rifles he built for me. They all shoot excellent.

Used one a few weeks ago to take a deer....recently had the inlet changed for M5 bottom metal so I had to bed pillars, re-bed the action/recoil lug so I thought I'd go ahead and full length bed the barrel channel. After the bedding set up I mounted a different scope on it and sighted it in. At 100 yards 3 bullets made a single hole that was slightly larger than bullet diameter....not big enough to be called a cloverleaf but you could tell the edges of the hole wasn't perfectly round.

That rifle has shot everything I've put through the #2 Douglas it wears well. I've never cleaned it. It's killed multiple truckloads of deer. If you like the rifle don't pass it up.

Just like every other Kult following on the Fire.....it's a sacrilege to speak against the norm.

Asked him to rebarrel a 7mm Rem Mag into 300 Ultra. He did. I got it back. Couldn't even get a round into the magazine, as the feed rails were never opened up. He flat out refused to take it back and correct it. Sent it to Montour County Rifles. That clown soaked me $80 shipping and sent me the same barreled action back that would not load or feed.

Did you ever get it fixed? Who is your go to smith now?

Sent the rifle down the road. And I do my best to not need anything "fixed". Think I have had one rifle rebarreled and built by a rifle builder that I could physically meet with and dropped off my project in person.

If I'd have ever had anything messed up by him, I would say so.

Were there any unstated assumptions about the scope of work?

No sacrilege to say if you've had a problem and nobody's perfect.

One of mine he smithed had to go back. He made it right. It took a while and was a headache for both of us but end result was perfect and I was happy with the rifle.

Yea....Huge difference between a scheister (we've seen at least one true scheister in the past couple of years) and a true gentleman that honors his word like Mickey Coleman.

I was lucky to get my assembled rifle back from the scheister....even though it's not chambered for what I ordered and I can't figure out what the chamber is.

Mickey was a long time friend. Used to sell him Shilen rifle blanks. Douglas was his go to barrel company and they are good. Several years ago my wife and I visited Mickey and wife. I played in Mickey's shop and then did shooting lessons with Tony Boyer. Mickey's wife, Faye Boyer, and my wife went to Birmingham shopping. Mickey was a great friend, but could give you the evil eye if he thought you needed it.

Anyone know which chambering method that Mickey used ?

Between Centers or the Gritters method ?

I have a rifle that wa built by Mickey Coleman and it isn't marked either. The only way I know it was made by him is the guy I got it from knows what he is talking about and knew Mickey Coleman. I choose to believe him, especially after the first time I shot it was with some 150 gr. factory ammo 30-06 Winchester that grouped about a half inch.
A few days later I shot a bull Elk with the same ammo and rifle at 350 yds. The rifle has a Brown Precision stock, adjustable trigger and an extremely nice Mod 70 type safety
I always wished that he had left a mark, but like 257 heaven and others say is there is no builders mark on his rifles.

As I recall, you don't get a build sheet or invoice tied to the serial number, either. He always just PM'd me and told me what I owed.

Mickey chambered in the headstock and sure didn't use the Gritter's method.

The Gritters method is done in the headstock so I’m not sure what you mean..

In general it’s either Between Centers method or the Gritters method - Add one if you know of another.

Sir, evidently you haven't observed much chambering. The Gordy method is a way to indicate a bore when chambering. I chamber in the headstock and don't use or care for the Gordy method. You don't chamber between centers either. You can't get a reamer in a barrel with a center in it. You can machine just behind the proposed tenon to put the steady rest so you can then thread and chamber.
If you are a member (free) you can read this PDF about chambering and add to your knowledge.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/130-page-pdf-of-different-chambering-methods.3912170/

Butch,

I meant the process of dialing in a barrel vs. the machining setup.

I.E. Gordy’s method of dialing in to align with the chamber with the bore at the throat as perfectly as possible..
BTW he has updated / improved those older processes you provided in the link from 2000 something... those are a bit out of date to what he teaches today.
That process he has in the videos still works and is repeatable, but he’s done more as well...
Vs.
The dialing in of the bore so the barrel is centered between the bore at the muzzle end (on the spider), and the Chamber end sticking out of the headstock.... I called between centers.
You can do it with a steady rest, but a lot of guys are doing it with a spider and chuck (headstock)...

There are many ways to chamber, but those are the two most common that I know of..
Personally I don’t trust the steady rest method, or indicator rod dial in methods given you can reposition them and they ... hey they aren’t dialed (not repeatable)...


Good to meet you Butch..

“Chambering between centers is the more modern common term” I’m used to hearing so I didn’t think that would be misconscrewed.
... https://rifleshooter.com/2014/09/chambering-a-rifle-barrel-between-centers/

I chamber in the headstock. I use a spider on ea. side of the headstock. I have a set of Deltronic pins for each caliber that I chamber, 25 per set, in .0001 increments. I indicate both ends. I predrill and reach in with my Mitutoyo indicator to the throat. It is a 513-504 model. I check the indication at the throat, taper bore, and then ream the chamber. The difference that I see is with the Gordy method the muzzle is flopping around on the LH side of your headstock.
Actually the folks that do a good job in "between centers" did put them between centers to make a cut for the steady that was concentric to the bore. They installed a steady rest to cut, thread, and chamber the barrel.
Spotshooter, very few of the top accuracy smiths use the Gritter method.
Sorry, I came off a little rough with you. Several of us have used the Gordy method, but saw nothing positive with it.
Some have said it aligns the chamber with the bore. So does my method and the muzzle is in line with the chamber.

No problem I knew what you meant..

I never did ask Mickey what chambering method he used, Greg has video’s as Gordy does... so I was just wondering.

I consider Gordy a good friend of mine, beyond me taking his courses on accurizing and building rifles, he helped me setup my shop, and taught me how to chamber. Mickey made some equipment recommendations as well.

Myself - I’m a retired career engineer / ex. Military guy who is more interested in a single ragged hole group than beating the club champ (done that.. not interested) or selling a bunch of stuff.
At the end of the day, I’m interested in comparing methods, and listening to guys who have been there and done ask much as possible while they are still around so I can build rifles that make guys like me smile because you are starting with groups that you try to get out of a factory rifle.

If you wander up around Kansas for a match let me know, we might run into each other... especially if you stop at George’s, or TommE’s...

Regards,
Spot

I have one of bis rifles. Craftsmanship is superb.

Mickey was a great smith... sorry we deviated off that.

throat and Muzzle

Rifles chambered this way shoot fantastic. Old Gritters method is what we call the "flop" method. I would love to see what Gordy is doing now.

Butch's post:

I chamber in the headstock. I use a spider on ea. side of the headstock. I have a set of Deltronic pins for each caliber that I chamber, 25 per set, in .0001 increments. I indicate both ends. I predrill and reach in with my Mitutoyo indicator to the throat. It is a 513-504 model. I check the indication at the throat, taper bore, and then ream the chamber. The difference that I see is with the Gordy method the muzzle is flopping around on the LH side of your headstock.
Actually the folks that do a good job in "between centers" did put them between centers to make a cut for the steady that was concentric to the bore. They installed a steady rest to cut, thread, and chamber the barrel.
Spotshooter, very few of the top accuracy smiths use the Gritter method.
Sorry, I came off a little rough with you. Several of us have used the Gordy method, but saw nothing positive with it.
Some have said it aligns the chamber with the bore. So does my method and the muzzle is in line with the chamber.

This is the start of good shooting barrel. Start at the Start!!! I use a Interapid indicator with a 2.7" arm to reach into where the new throat is going to be. ON longer mag chambers, I use the Mitutoyo 513-204 T which is a pocket indicator to get to the throat. Bug holes abound on hunting rifles. I do not do work for others.

I owned 5 at one time, down to 2. Those 2 are my favorites and not going anywhere.

For what it’s worth Keith - done correctly both the Gritters and between centers methods align at the end of the chamber (or should)...
The difference is what the 2nd point of the alignment is - the far end muzzle hole, or down the throat further so you have axial bore alignment.

Of course precision measuring / dialing in methods matters in both - and is really the big differentiator on how well axially aligned you end up with the 2 centers or bore at throat alignment.

Mickey thought Gordy was a Good smith and knew what he was doing, so there was some respect there... I know that because I asked him that once myself.
Mickey was a classy guy... I miss him.

I think Gordy is a good guy and yes, I've visited with him. Let me ask you this, if I indicate the throat, prebore chamber and ream, what are you gaining by using the Gordy method?
If and this is a big "if", how will the Gordy method work if the barrel has a bore that wanders? Have you ever sectioned a barrel and checked the path of the bore. I'll tell you that the bore does not take off in a flat arc. What little the path happens to be is a radial arc and it is not constant.
Remember, I chamber in the headstock and not in the steady
If you actually have any machineshop experience, you can tell me how the base of my chamber cannot be coaxial to the throat.

I sent Mickey Coleman a Winchester SS Classic long action and a hand lapped HS Precision tapered octagon barrel that he put together and chambered in 280AI. I bedded it in a Lone Wolf ultra light stock. It was superbly accurate. I shot a couple of Mule deer bucks with it and foolishly sold it. That is truly, "the one that got away" (due to my stupidity). RJ

Butch ...

If Gordy explained it to you... and you left un convinced I’m not sure me telling why I think it’s good will help you.

that being said - the difference we’re describing is NOT concentric (centered) at the throat..
. it’s alignment of the bore AXIS with the chamber AXIS (Coaxial = 2 axis... concentric = matching centers)

.... but “WHICH” bore axis CENTERS axis , or as the bore as it leaves the chamber ?
** as you said these are different axis ... only slightly given they share the same center....

Do this - Take a soft piece of copper tubing - say 1/4”.... that is 2 feet long and put the slightest of bend in it.

Then take your air hose and fire off 50lbs directly aligned with the end... how does the tube react ?
NOW...angle the air Nossle and repeat that ...

Did the air hitting one side more than the other add any flex / vibration to the system ... OK... add lead, and 50,000 PSI... does it now ?

Eliminating all flexing / vibration generally makes a more stable system, and that often means a better shooting barrel / action...

Ok - I took a shot at answering your question... on why it’s of value...
IF you want to talk how to drive reamers for better holes, that’s a different discussion and best done on PM..

Best,
Spot

Pm an email, you are still not comprehending what I've posted.

Butch -

I think most people would have problems measuring the axis of a throat without indicating on the chamber so unless it’s way out it would be hard to see with a scope as well...

BUT you asked —- so here is one way to do it (not recommending this)

Say a guy is extending a throat with a throat reamer that doesn’t touch the sides of the chamber, and doesn’t dial the barrel in based on the existing chamber... . Then extends the throat.

OK there you go.... throat on one axis / chamber on another .... === not coaxial.
If one did it with a standard reamer and it wasn’t dialed in if the floating reamer holder can’t compensate... you could end up with a screwed up chamber as well so who cares about the misalignment if you ruined the barrel.... (why I didn’t think you actually wanted an answer)...

Cheers.

Young feller,I'm still waiting on an email address as I PMed you as requested. Maybe it is you that needs a lesson in good machine shop practices.

Mickey lived about an hour from here and I visited him a couple of times-- he was a gentleman. He did some bedding work for me back before I started building my own guns and, candidly, it wasn't his best work-- this was near the end of his life and I'll blame his macular disease. I'm sure his earlier rifles were great.

As for chambering, I use the method described by William Hambly-Clark in his excellent book, Centerfire Rifle Accuracy. It involves holding the breech end in the 4-jaw by a set of gimbals, allowing the bore to be indicated over the length of the chamber. Robert Gradous uses a similar method, but with a different gimbal design. I'm not going to argue with anyone on whether it is the "best" method but my results with it have been excellent in terms of accuracy.

I have a few buddies that hold their barrels in a similar way. They do excellent work. Mr. Hambly-Clark's book is excellent.

Woodhits,

Cool shims - are those steel ?

Unfortunately I don’t think a lot of people knew when Mickey was really sick, some guys were getting pissed off that he wasn’t responding.... when they just didn’t know.

Shims are 3/8" 0-1, milled in half. I also had the lathe jaws milled with a 3/8" ball end mill to provide a pocket for the gimbals.

That is a pretty cool Idea...

I did the brass tip screws on the spider thing which works well because it’s a soft / sticky (holds well) contact point with the barrel, and am using aluminum shims on the chuck side.
I’m been experimenting with pivotal surfaces but the softer metal is not condusive (it will pass metal plasticity and dis form) to maintaining a pivotal joint.

HOWEVER... if I took your approach and created a soft surface between your pivot and the barrel - say by putting in an permanent aluminum shim ..by creating a small dovetail like channel on the flat of your drill rod, and then insert the shim and stake the ends... I would have the best of both worlds.

A strong pivotal surface that is hard, and a nice soft sticky barrel contact... NICE...

Thanks for sharing that...

Glad you found it helpful. It takes some getting used to but it works.

I’d still want some way to handle it from outside of the chuck, I don’t think there is any perfect way, but each one has its own virtues.

A lot of us are always trying to improve methods to get the best stress free barrel dial in as possible.

I have 9 rifles done by Mickey. Every single one is a sub-moa rifle.

Same with me, BUT he built an entire rifle that was all out of wack when I got it. I named it ScarFace being FIVE gunsmiths had to work on it. This was my very first custom build, and at that time my sound knowledge of really good smiths wasn't known. Got one now and he's(GRADOUS) all I fool with EXCLUSIVELY.