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Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: michiganroadkill] #14447748 01/08/20
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Originally Posted by michiganroadkill
Not a steel I have heard of.
Just wondered who is using it for what purpose.

I did a search.
It is a product out of Germany.
Looks like carbon and tungsten are the work horses in the chemistry.
Only trace amounts of Chromium and Vanadium.

Must be mostly used by hand forging for blades?????

Figured you had some up close and personal info to share on it.


I have tested one knife in it. I should be getting my own knife in it shortly. There are some guys that either are using it or would be willing to use it in they're knives. The ones I am aware of are stock removal guys. I don't have all the material info but it can be pushed pretty hard in the heat treat. The lack of Vanadium makes it easier to sharpen. All carbides are not created equal. But between the softer (easier to sharpen) carbides and the harder HRC it seems to work really well. I don't see it as a game changer but in my opinion it is a very viable and capable steel when all is done properly. I think it is a very good choice for a blade that can be easily sharpened, can be used a little harder but still not abused, and still hold a great thin edge.


Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.
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Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14447973 01/09/20
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Thank You.


"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
Albert Einstein

At Khe Sanh a sign read "For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected never knew".
Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: MontanaCreekHunter] #14448006 01/09/20
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Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
Originally Posted by Canazes9
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter


S30V 4.00% Vanadium vs S3V 2.75 Vanadium

S30V 2.00% Molybdenum vs 1.30% Molybdenum

I am not going to argue with you about your knives you are comparing but I will say that the S30V was clearly not done properly.


It's a good thing you're not going to argue - particularly w/ your pissy little comments about S30V being done right, because it would make you sound like an arrogant ass that thinks he can read a composition chart and pick a winning steel by looking at it's moybdenum & Vanadium content. It's also an argument you can't win.

Funny thing about using knives to actually field dress game instead of looking at composition charts - you find out how they actually perform vs how they might theoretically perform, or how they might perform in a cutting test utilizing rope or paper or any of the other common test media. Here's a hint: Knives with chips in the blade don't cut as well as knives that don't have chips in the blade. Sharpening knives w/ chips in the blades always takes longer because you have to remove excess material to get them sharp.

S30V chips. It's a well known failing of S30V. The chipping and related workability issues were the reason S35VN was invented (and while it's an improvement, S35VN is still inferior to CPM 3V in actual field use).

CPM 3V doesn't suffer from that problem. It stays sharp, doesn't chip and when you inevitability get into the bone of an animal, worse cae it rolls and is stropped back into service rather easily. Perhaps you should try cleaning multiple animals back to back w/ S30V blades and CPM 3V blades and tell me which one actually works better. Or you could attempt to have a civil discussion where you don't feel the need to belittle anyone that migh have a different opinion than you and you could learn from someone that's been there, done that.

Still waiting for you to regale me with what high end "proper stones" that are required to sharpen any of these steels...

David


Haha yeah I have never seen an animal let alone use a knife on one. But with all your experience with game animals one would tend to think you would know how to use a knife by now! Funny that escapes you. As for stones you are all knowing you don't need my help. smile smile smile

So again S30V done properly will out cut S3V. Yes S3V is a tougher steel, nowhere did I say it wasn't! Hence why it makes a great fighter or Bushcraft knife.

The arrogant ass is you!


Holy f uck - now you not only know everything about knives, but you're such a bad ass ninja w/ a blade you can process an animal (multiple animals) without ever touching a bone! Please regale us with your expertise!

What? You don't have $hit to say about stones? All knowing? Don't think I said that, I plainly stated what I use, you're the one talking all the secret squirrel decoder BS. Really isn't hard to sharpen a knife, even the exotic high end alloy, if you know how. Keeping your mouth shut really is your best move, but I doubt you're capable.

David

Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14448027 01/09/20
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Last week, S45 was the new, whiz-bang steel, this week it's 1.2562. I can't keep up with this all.

Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14448265 01/09/20
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From time to time......


[Linked Image from i38.photobucket.com]

I get a wild hare and initiate a post which I create around a photo, and throw in a caption or a link to give the depth or legitimacy to the enterprise. This was the case here. An inexpensive knife, a cheap cigar and several "Jim Beam" items, (Jim Beam is my "daily bourbon"). It was basically a throw-away post that was a means of self-entertainment.

Evidently some folks took exception to the fact that the "Complete Guide" was not so complete. Oh well, my bad. However, as aforementioned in a previous post, "there never was a hoss that couldn't be rode and there never was a rider that couldn't be throwed. Knives and knife-making have been around for thousands of years. It's hard to contemplate a tome that would be the "complete" guide to knife steels.


Ya' know,

One of the things I've most enjoyed about this forum is the collegiality of the small community of folks that post here, and the congenial nature of most posts. It would seem that we have a common interest in that we enjoy playing with and displaying knives and other edged implements. I hope that does not change.

ya!

GWB


A Kill Artist. When I draw, I draw blood.
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Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14448348 01/09/20
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Properly done I bet 99.9% of hunters wouldn’t notice the difference in the field


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
Hey Bama, say, ocotillo....
You a hunter, or a killer? Kevin Loades
Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: Judman] #14448493 01/09/20
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Originally Posted by Judman
Properly done I bet 99.9% of hunters wouldn’t notice the difference in the field


I believe you would notice a difference. No, nothing that would have you jumping up and down, but I think you would notice. Is your season done? Any more animals to process in your future this year? Let me know, maybe we can work something out, you can try it for yourself.

David

Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14448508 01/09/20
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Been pretty happy with the probably 5160 from the leaf springs I've been using. smile

Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: Canazes9] #14448786 01/09/20
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Originally Posted by Canazes9
Originally Posted by Judman
Properly done I bet 99.9% of hunters wouldn’t notice the difference in the field


I believe you would notice a difference. No, nothing that would have you jumping up and down, but I think you would notice. Is your season done? Any more animals to process in your future this year? Let me know, maybe we can work something out, you can try it for yourself.

David


Try what out David? I’m talking properly done up Ingram, double H, Howe etc. I’ve got em in d2, s30v, elmax cpm 154, 390 etc. I don’t let my blades get dull, maybe I’m missing something? Got one coming from Tim in m4, curious to try it out but I’m sure it’ll be like the rest


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
Hey Bama, say, ocotillo....
You a hunter, or a killer? Kevin Loades
Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14448800 01/09/20
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I am headed to Kauai end of February for sheep and boar if ya need something tested.. grin


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
Hey Bama, say, ocotillo....
You a hunter, or a killer? Kevin Loades
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Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: Judman] #14449295 01/09/20
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Originally Posted by Judman
Originally Posted by Canazes9
Originally Posted by Judman
Properly done I bet 99.9% of hunters wouldn’t notice the difference in the field


I believe you would notice a difference. No, nothing that would have you jumping up and down, but I think you would notice. Is your season done? Any more animals to process in your future this year? Let me know, maybe we can work something out, you can try it for yourself.

David


Try what out David? I’m talking properly done up Ingram, double H, Howe etc. I’ve got em in d2, s30v, elmax cpm 154, 390 etc. I don’t let my blades get dull, maybe I’m missing something? Got one coming from Tim in m4, curious to try it out but I’m sure it’ll be like the rest


I was referring to CPM 3V - I thought you were referencing that. No big deal, have a good one.

David

Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14449359 01/09/20
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While things are cooling down, I pose a question.
Hopefully the answers will be from at least some actual hands on field use or testing

Given three knives of same geometry and of equal sharpness by same sharpening process,
1. One with CPM 154 at 61 Rc
2. One with CPM M4 at 63 Rc
3. One with 1.2562 at 67 Rc (or something very similar)

IF the CPM 154 blade would field dress and quarter two elk before needing touch up with a strop,
------ how many elk would you expect to do with the other two steels before needing touch up??????

Remember the only difference is in the chemistry and Rc. All else is equal.

I do not get to process many animals any more (Like zero this year) and have not felt up to cutting a bunch of rope.

Thanks in advance. Tim


"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
Albert Einstein

At Khe Sanh a sign read "For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected never knew".
Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: michiganroadkill] #14450089 01/09/20
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Originally Posted by michiganroadkill
While things are cooling down, I pose a question.
Hopefully the answers will be from at least some actual hands on field use or testing

Given three knives of same geometry and of equal sharpness by same sharpening process,
1. One with CPM 154 at 61 Rc
2. One with CPM M4 at 63 Rc
3. One with 1.2562 at 67 Rc (or something very similar)

IF the CPM 154 blade would field dress and quarter two elk before needing touch up with a strop,
------ how many elk would you expect to do with the other two steels before needing touch up??????

Remember the only difference is in the chemistry and Rc. All else is equal.

I do not get to process many animals any more (Like zero this year) and have not felt up to cutting a bunch of rope.

Thanks in advance. Tim



Well, I have two blades of similar shape though not of matching size, one in CPM M4 and one in CPM 154 and I have cut up a couple deer with each. I will also throw in VG-10 and D2 blades that are of similar size and edge angle. I will also throw in skinning to the work and separating the muscles for slicing.

The VG-10 blade has done 9 (nine) deer for me and as such is the standard by which I compare. The D2 has done a lot of deer, but usually needs touch up after a couple-three CPM 154 is similar to the D2 for me, a little better IMO but I haven't got enough to base a judgement on if it is for sure or if I am just seeing a little more edge corrosion with the D2. The CPM M4 I have is still shaving sharp after two deer so my use seems to put it ahead of both CPM 154 and D2, and maybe a lot more. I am only guessing, but I figure I have at least two more deer in the CPM M4 blade before touch up.

None of these blades have been hardness tested to my knowledge. They are of similar hardness and I have reason to believe that the CPM M4 blade is somewhere near 63-64 HRC. All of the above blade were sharpened to about 15 degrees.

Never had a piece of 1.2562 in my hands, much less used one for anything. Sorry.

Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14450262 01/09/20
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Good I’ll be curious to try Tim’s m4 out


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
Hey Bama, say, ocotillo....
You a hunter, or a killer? Kevin Loades
Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: michiganroadkill] #14450923 01/09/20
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Originally Posted by michiganroadkill
"After the first 3 inaccuracies I bailed."

"Where were the inaccuracies in the link on knife steels?"

Without going overboard or getting twisted up, a little data to go with one liners would be appreciated I am sure.
Not trying to get another thread melt down going here, just......
Tim


Hey, Tim. I freely admit I just scanned the link in an airport, so didn't deep dive, but these are the specious declarations that jumped out 'Immediately":

Quote
What is Steel?

“Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon containing less than 2% carbon and 1% manganese and small amounts of silicon, phosphorus, sulphur and oxygen”


This is a generic and antiquated definition grabbed off the internet for simple iron-carbon steel, used in the day to differentiate pig iron from steel from cast iron. Today we have over 3500 steel alloys and MOST don't fit this definition. Heck, the top rated alloy in the list is CPM S90V. It has 2.3% carbon...does that mean it isn't steel?

Quote
CPM M4 is one of Crucible’s top tool steels. Like every other steel made by Crucible, it was created using their patented Particle Metallurgy Process.


Bullsh!t. Crucible/Niagra produces 28 CPM products out of 59 offerings. Heck, we all know they offer 154 CM and CPM 154, D2 and CPM D2, M4 and CPM M4, etc...

Quote
Stainless or Carbon Steel?

It depends. Higher carbon generally means lower corrosion resistance.


Really? Again, the steels noted as most corrosion resistant in the dialogue have carbon above 1.5%.


I could go on (and on!!) but need to board a plane...


You can no more tell someone how to do something you've never done, than you can come back from somewhere you've never been...
Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: Journeyman] #14450931 01/09/20
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Ahhhh...BIS (Butt In Seat) and headed home...

Just wanted to add this doozy I just noticed:

Quote
On a final note: To qualify as a true stainless steel there must be at least 14% chromium.


WTF? Where did this come from? Worldwide, depending on the standard, minimum chromium in stainless is 10.5-11%...


Last edited by Journeyman; 01/09/20. Reason: Inebriated

You can no more tell someone how to do something you've never done, than you can come back from somewhere you've never been...
Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14451106 01/10/20
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I am just grateful we have such world class knife steel experts here, and that they are willing to share their wit and wisdom with us. Sad that these repositories of knowledge can’t agree on much, other than that they are all such paragons of knowledge. 😏


Sam......

Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14451593 01/10/20
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In reloading I have 8 or so books or manuals to use for reference. It is quick to notice that they
hardly ever agree on things like max loads, velocity, accuracy etc. So I interpolate the data and
proceed with caution looking for pressure signs, high velocity, accuracy, etc.
There are no absolutes here, you have to individually shoot em to know.

I take about the same approach with steels and blades. I look at the mfrs info and data, look at the
reports on performance, may use some of the stuff myself, cast a watchful eye on the claims of "total pos" and
"next to krytonite" and kind of interpolate all that to form my opinion or best guess.
If I personally use something and it works for me, it is good. If not, I first check if I was in error.
If I still think it is sub par, I move on to something else.

With knives/steels as with reloading, what works for one may not work for another.
With all the variables in getting to an end product knife I know there will be differences in the final
products and how it is rated by users and groupies.

Go forth with a grain of salt grasshopper.


"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
Albert Einstein

At Khe Sanh a sign read "For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected never knew".
Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14451651 01/10/20
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I guess I’m happy as a pig in shiit to be able to work up 1 elk without a touch up..


Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
Hey Bama, say, ocotillo....
You a hunter, or a killer? Kevin Loades
Re: Guide to knife steels [Re: geedubya] #14451675 01/10/20
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Well, I expect your next knife to surpass that level of happiness for you.


"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
Albert Einstein

At Khe Sanh a sign read "For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected never knew".
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