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Ammoman, there's something I forgot to mention - berserk llama syndrome. There's lots of info on the web about it but here's a general rundown of what it is. It's important to be able to recognize it when you're llama shopping.

When male llamas are over handled when babies, especially bottle fed ones, they lose the ability to differentiate between llamas and people. Llamas are very dominance oriented. They fight among themselves all the time, spitting and growling At about 18 months, the males will hit puberty and start fighting for dominance - and they play rough. They'll knock each other down and lay on them. They bite and spit and scream at each other. They're very vocal. The problem is, if they've lost that respect for humans, they won't be able to tell the difference and will fight people for dominance, too. One that's got it bad can be dangerous. They never get over it, even if castrated.

I have 1 with it. A lady had a 2 year old that she'd bought for her kids and she was sold a real bill of goods as he has it. She had him on Craigslist to give away, saying he was too aggressive for them. I took a look at him and he had good conformation so I told her I'd take him to try out as a packer. I also told her that if he didn't pan out, we'd eat him. He is a good packer so I'm willing to deal with him but I have to to keep him in line. He's 5 now and is as bad as ever. I keep him in the lead on the trail as he can get in trouble with the other llamas. I also never take my eyes off of him in the pasture. He likes to follow me around, directly behind me where I can't see what he's up to. He could chest bump me at any time and knock me flat. I go after him aggressively myself to show him who's boss. When I'm trying catch another llama, he will get between me and that one to cut me off. He gets a knee in the belly when he does that. He'll also try to separate me from my wife when we're both in the pasture. If he wasn't a good packer, he'd become hamburger.

By nature, llamas don't like to be petted. They don't want their heads and feet touched and will back away if you try to touch them. If you see one advertised as 'very friendly, easy to catch', it's suspect as being easy to catch isn't common. If you ever hear the words 'petting zoo', run. That's a llama you DO NOT want.

Interesting reading Rockchuck. I see a them around here, but we are all horseman or mule skinners.
I never just take one horse either, I always take two , they are often tied up for long periods together and they don't fuss together.
I am curious, You put up with poor behaviour?
I keep our stock respectful around people and won't allow them any major decisions.
A pack sure looks like it would roll or creep forward or backward. I bet fitting them is very key.
There cloven hooves look grippy and are probably able to handle steep rocky country but I have got equine into mountain goat country regularily, depending on the breed and how I shoe them.
Anyways it is good reading....cheers

A misbehaving llama isn't nearly as serious as a horse or mule. They only average about 400lb and you're not riding it. They can be handled far easier. I still don't want more than 1 bad one in a string, though. I can easily handle 1 but not 2.
Around people, most llamas will stand off. They don't like to be touched. My 1 berserk one is in your face. He likes women especially. He will nuzzle them and get very friendly. On the trail, about everyone I meet wants to pet them and take pictures. He's good for PR because they think all llamas are very friendly like that. When they try to pet the others, they'll move away. Since I always have him in the lead, it's easy to let people pet him and I can restrain him if he gets too pushy.

The saddles have both chest straps and either britching or cruppers so they won't slide. Llamas have a high spine so sliding sideways normally isn't a problem with a reasonably tight cinch.

They don't have hooves. They have thick textured pads like a dog with 2 long toe nails. The nails will grip pretty well on slick stuff. They can get in and out of some really nasty country. Normally they don't kick but if one does, the soft foot doesn't hurt and rarely does any damage unless you get your head in the way. A kick is lightning fast, though. You won't see it coming.

A big problem on the trail is jumping. They normally jump over small creeks and logs. Since they're in a string, that can cause some real problems, even broken halters or lead ropes. One of the hardest parts of training is teaching them to step over stuff instead of jumping.

I do not hunt with llamas. I have a one time limited knowledge of llamas. I went on a backpack trip with a guy who had four llamas. There were eight of us on the trip.

Before the trip, I thought that I was going to be able to put my backpack on a llama and just carry a daypack. I thought that a llama could carry two backpacks, one on each side of the crossuck. Like a horse, only smaller. I was wrong.

Well that's not how it turned out at all. The llamas had to carry so much stuff to feed, maintain and care for the llama and to keep them from running away that there wasn't much room left for anything else. I ended up carrying my backpack for the whole trip. No big deal because that's what I'm accustomed to. The experience was disappointing.

In addition we had to spend about two hours in the morning and two more hours in the evening packing/unpacking, maintaining, setting up highline ropes, feeding them, etc. They definitely were not a positive addition to that trip. The llamas were a hindrence.

RockChuck is a real expert on a lot of things outdoor related. So I suspect that he has a much better klnowledge of how to make eveything work.

I'm curious. What all did the guy take anyway? I use a couple strong 3/8" ropes stretched out on the ground. Trained llamas won't fight a rope so you don't need winch cable to hold them. If they get tangled, they'll stand and work their feet until they're loose. I have 100' and another 50' in case I don't have stuff to tie the ends to. I put a 2" tie ring every 20' so I have room for 5 llamas on a 100' ground rope. Then I put a 12' light weight 1/4" rope, with a small snap on each ring for a tether. That's all the stuff I take for tying out. In the summer, they have enough natural feed. Llamas will eat about anything. During late season, I'll take some hay pellets as a supplement. You can feed 4 or so llamas on what 1 horse will eat. I'll take enough pellets so each one gets a qt twice a day. They get heavy but they're compact and fit easily in a pannier. I just have to balance the weight. Add some very light weight dog dishes to feed them in and that's it.

Bulk is more of an issue than weight. Llama panniers are much smaller than horse panniers. Sleeping bags can be a problem if the guys don't have compact bags. I took a scout troop on a trip this summer. We invited some adults to go and ended up with 12 people for 5 llamas. Everyone carried their own sleeping bag and any other bulky items. A couple years ago, one boy showed up with a slab of 4" memory foam for a pillow. It literally weighed 10lb and would fill half a pannier. Forget that crap. Carry your own, Buster.

RC, that's the first I've heard of berserk llama syndrome
I don't think I've seen that before.

KC, that's a very different experience than what I've seen and read. They can typically carry around 100 lbs and require very little gear other than stakeout ropes and stakes. The guys I know who have them just let them graze on what's available and don't pack any food other than maybe some treats.

I mentioned before that some can be turned loose and others not. Of my 5, I have 3 I can turn looses dragging 12' ropes. They'll stay close. The other 2 will wander off. Always keep at least 1 tied so the whole flock doesn't wander off.

An experienced packer showed me about using the ground line and it works great. You don't have to pull it tight. Let them drag it back and forth. They won't go anywhere. Once they've got tangled a few times, they'll be very good at getting themselves untangled. They won't fight it like horses will. Highlines are for horses. Don't bother with them for llamas. I take them to water twice a day and it takes maybe 5 min. to feed them when I need to. They take almost no time at all in camp. I've tried the screw in stakes and find that the ropes get twisted around them. The long ground line prevents that.

Speaking of water - don't be surprised at how little they drink. They might go a couple days and drink nothing at all. They have a strange digestive system. They reabsorb water from the large intestine and reuse it. Their droppings are quite dry.

A lot of good information being shared here. Thanks!

RC, been reading that book you recommended. Lots of good information. Anybody even considering llamas should pick up a copy.

Yeah, it's a good book. It was recommended to me when I 1st started and I learned a lot from it. I've changed how I do some things since then but you can't go wrong doing it her way.

your young ones will need about a year of light training before they can bare heavy loads, usually around 4yoa. Llamas browse similar to goats and will eat almost anything, shouldn't need to take much , if any supplemental feed... work on getting them caught, and then get a halter on them. Lead them around, pretty simple.

Some llamas can be caught readily but most like to play a game. 1st you need to get them in a restricted area but they quickly learn that going into a corral means you're going to catch them and they won't go in. I have a small pasture, maybe 1/8 acre, between 2 larger pastures with a gate at each end. I just close one gate and they'll run right in. When catching them, they'll run back and forth 3 or 4 times then they'll get in a corner and stand while I halter them. It's just a game they play.

Here's something else about llamas - liver flukes. It's the main cause of parasitic problems in llamas. It's carried by snails and irrigation. The snails are the host to the fluke larvae. They crawl up on the grass blades and are eaten by the llamas. They can be a serious health problem.

Control is easy - IF you can find the right dewormer. I've used Ivomec Plus for years. The 'Plus' is the essential part for flukes. An SQ dose of 1ml per 100lb body weight twice a year does the job. In the last year, Ivomec Plus has become very hard to find in small quantities. Most llama owners don't need a 100ml bottle and the smaller ones have become very scarce.
I recently found out that Valbazen will do the job, too. It's a drench, though, that has to be given orally. I'm going to give my 1st dose of it in the near future. Again, the dose is 1ml per 100lb. The easiest way is to tie the llama with it's head high and just squirt it in with a large syringe with no needle. It remains to be seen how they like it.

Dose them after the 1st hard frost. That kills the snails and they can't be reinfected until irrigation starts in the spring. Depending on your climate, Nov and May might be the best months. Dec and June works, too. Both the Ivomec and Valbazen will also take out various other worms but the liver flukes are the main problem. You don't want to over due the worming, though. A low level of worms will actually help the llamas develop a bit of immunity to them. Twice a years is plenty.

Best thing a complete novice could do is to go to some outfit that rents llamas and be trained by them as if you are going to rent. At least then you will have a foundation of knowledge on which to build. There is an unbelievable amount of untrue info out there concerning llamas and their real, and imagined flaws/abilities. Tack is pricey, I make my own Trained llamas are pricey, I train my own. I am up to 24 and need 80 to cover hunting season rentals.

They are very unique critters that fill a niche in the pack animal world between dogs, goats, and horses/mules. Unlike the one story above they are VERY low maintenance in the back country and easy keepers in the pasture. It is a cyclical market and right now it is favoring the seller.

If you go to my web site at corralcreekllamas.com you can poke around and hopefully learn some stuff, same facebook page name Keep an open mind but verify all this "free knowledge" you can glean.

They will change your whole approach to back country travel as long as there is a reasonable trail system where you are going, if no trail you can still do it but not as a beginner, walk before you run, and try before you buy...

Have fun!

That's exactly what I do. The saddle on the left is a very good Decker that I bought on Craigslist 8 or 9 years ago. They're no longer made, and cost
about $250 when they were, so I made a couple of my own. Including the cinches, I have about $50 in each of them. Good pads are another story. I have no way to sew the heavy felt.

Send Big Fin a p.m.. He has used Llamas on several of his filmed episodes. He will give you the low-down. He stays pretty busy & that’s likely the reason he hasn’t joined this thread.

I am not discounting the current knowledge base here.

I have a little time today to help you a bit perhaps. Given the info you gave is accurate you need all the tack for all the llamas You need a catch pen which ideally is about 6'x8'. You need to get them addicted to some form of food they love, I use 3 way mix grain. Get them so they will come to the treats into the catch pen. In the catch pen you take a slow approach to halter training force should be a last resort once you go there you have few good options but to continue, you may win you may lose. Once you halter train lead train. once you lead train tether train. Once you tether train saddle train, once you saddle train pannier train, once you pannier train trail train, continue trail training for the next 20 or so years. Your results may vary! At every step in this process there are tricks and tips it would help immensely if you have a mentor you can call for advice.

Do not pretend to learn to train llamas from those who USE llamas, they are probably the biggest source of false info there is, they know just enough to be dangerous. And remember you got those "raw" llamas cheap for a reason they need work to be "finished".

Are their fighting teeth cut yet? If not cut them but leave their nuts alone WAY too many do just the opposite.

Agree with going with someone who knows about them a time or two. that’s how I did it about 20 years ago. I bought my own string in 2008. The advice I would add is that it is essential to spend a lot of time with them. Occasionally I will talk to someone who has the idea that you can take them on a hunting trip once a year and leave them alone in the pasture the rest of the time, or even put them on pasture away from home. I don’t think that would work. They are like any animal, the more time you spend with them the better behaved and responsive they will be. Take them on some packtrips over the summer, weekends are good and longer trips better.

My wife or I spend at least a little time with them every day, feeding if nothing else. Time spent brushing, touching legs and feet, putting halters on and off will pay off many times over. Mine will come running when I walk out to the pasture and call them...not because they love me and miss me but because that is the habit they have learned for feeding.

Working them in the off season is more than training. It's also conditioning. They get pasture soft just like any other animal or person. I have a 5 mile route in the hills near here with a 900' elevation gain. Starting in about May, I take them on it at least twice a week. As they get in shape, I need it more than they do. I add sandbags to the panniers as they get in shape until they're packing 80lb each. I also put weight in my day pack.

Make sure your not fully packing them until they're 4 years old. You'll break them down otherwise