Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Basic Questions about distance shooting

I've been reloading and shooting for a long time now, over 40 years. But in the past I have mostly shot at 100 yards for load development. I know what kind of havoc wind can play at longer distances. I live in Wyoming and calm days are rare. That hasn't been an issue in the past because where I've hunted is in the thick timber of the Sierra Madre mountains of southern Wyoming. I've never shot an elk there at a distance of more than 75 yards. But this past year I retired and moved to NW Wyoming and there's a lot of places to hunt here where shots could be longer.

I doubt I'll ever have the skill or confidence to shoot at anything you guys would consider long range, but I figure the experts here can help me understand some things. If I can get comfortable at 300-350 yards, I'll be happy.

Yesterday I took a .270 Win to the range. It's fairly new but has averaged about 0.7 moa at 100 yards for six 3-shot groups with a load I've come up with using 130 grn TTSX bullets. At 100 yards I got a 0.625 group. There was officially a 12 mph crosswind but the range is located between earthen berms and the wind swirls and gusts inside of them. At 200 yds the group opened up to a bit less than 1.5 moa and at 300 yards to a bit over 2 moa.

Would this be considered normal for these conditions? Also, the variance of the groups at 200 and 300 yds were as much or more vertical than horizontal. That kind of surprised me, but is that normal as well?

What is your current scope? Are you shooting from a bench with bags? Bipod? Sled?
Vertical stringing can be caused by many things. Here is a good write up on it.
https://www.6mmbr.com/verticaltips.html

I have a Leoupod VX3 on that rifle, 3.5x10, and use a Caldwell rest with a sandbag for rear support.

In those conditions, sporter weight rifle? What's the problem?

Just to confirm, you’re talking about 2 and 3 MOA groups, not 2-3”, right?

Yes, minute of angle. The group at 300 yards was about 6 inches.

I would say I’m trying more to learn than solve a problem. If I stay within my self imposed range of about 300 yards I could hit the lungs of a deer or elk if the wind isn’t too bad. But there will be days when the wind will be a lot worse than it was here yesterday.

Try using a softer front rest. What rifle? Free-floated barrel?

As usual, I'm running counter to the prevailing wind here on the fire. You have a fine rifle, in a fine caliber. I say, forget the shooting aids, bags, benches and stuff. Verify your preferred zero at your preferred range, memorize your holdovers if necessary and work on hitting a paper plate from real world positions. Shoot sitting over your knees, learn your limitations in offhand, launch a few prone if you think that's something that can be used in your terrain. At 300 yds in flukey unpredictable winds shooting a 6 inch group is just fine. I'd say forget your range with benches and berms, drive out on the prairie and set up with some targets tacked on cardboard boxes. But start with a verified zero under ideal conditions.
When it comes to doping wind in the field without gadgets, there are some very rough rules that can help. Wind speed, look on youtube, there are videos on wind velocity affecting various grasses, trees, leaves, dirt, and then the wild a__ guess. In any case, if you zero your .270 at 200 say, a full value 10 mph wind will push a 150 gr sbt (about the same length as your 130 copper) roughly 6 inches or about 1/2 of your drop. So memorize your drop. If you want to study this a little, the old Sierra 3rd Ed is a good source. Just pick an old Sierra bullet around the same b.c. as your copper 130... all the dope you need, it's all there on one page. One man's opinion.

Does ones scope have the ability to dial out parallax?

No it sure doesn’t. Can that be a factor at 300 yards?

I probably wasn’t clear on my objective. I’m not too interested in getting better groups from the bench by doing things that don’t apply to the field like getting a better rest. I’m really trying to get a feel for my max range with different wind conditions.

I sure appreciate everyone’s input.

Do you use a bipod in the field?

Having a scope with reference marks on the horizontal leg of the reticle will really help you with your wind holds. Have you researched wind values? How much a wind of a given velocity will affect your bullet’s path if it is not at 90 degrees to your line of sight?

John

Another thing that will help, ditch the Barnes and use a higher B.C. bullet.

Great post.
Another thing I'd add is that JBMballistics.com is your friend. Select your bullet & velocity and play around with different wind scenarios to see what your load will do. Remember, a deer has a roughly 10" diameter vital zone. All you have to do is get a bullet within that.

If you’re getting 2 MOA of vertical at 300, it’s good to figure out why that is happening. Hence my suggestion to modify your bench technique. Once you’ve got your load figured out, and it performs as expected out to your maximum shooting distance (should show consistent precision in a no-wind scenario), then start practicing field positions and shooting from improvised rests.

As far as shooting in the wind goes, Hondo and boatanchor are right, you would benefit from learning how the wind affects your bullet, having a reticle that facilitates compensating for the effect, and using a bullet that is affected by the wind as little as possible. If shooting to 300 yards these things are less critical than if you were shooting in the same wind at longer distance, but the wind can still certainly have a noticeable effect at 300. For hunting purposes from 0 to 300 using a high-velocity cartridge like the .270, I would continue to use the Barnes (maybe switch to the LRX), but would practice enough to know how different wind speeds and directions affect the bullet. A good tool to invest in to help you quantify the wind that you feel, and help you learn to estimate that wind, is a Kestrel. Not necessarily for use while hunting, but for training purposes while target shooting and practicing.

And another thing Mr McInnis, good on you sir for having the will to learn your craft, and hold your expectations to realistic distances. I participated in NRA Highpower for many years, and then the real deal with NRA Highpower Sporting Rifle. My take away is, darn few men have any business sniping longrange at game animals using sporter weight rifles from the three basic shooting positions found in the field. True, that was before magic scopes, sniper gadgets and smartphone ballistic programs, but in the end it pretty much boiled down to the shooter and his skill level.
Now the "F" class boys, and the grads of Darrel Holland's, Thunder Ranch etc. are exempt from my criticism.

I prefer to find a field expediant rest, rather than relying on 'the three basic field positions', or better yet, carry your own. Sometimes even a bipod. By the way, don't those f-class boys use a funky bipod? WTF are THEY exempt from your 'criticism'?..... And what does a diploma from that holland guy, do to exempt themselves?

Seeking out an unsteady rest is always my first move when trying to sort out rifle. Great advice

Jeez, I didn't make myself understood. I encouraged the op to verify his zero under the best possible conditions, bench,bags, weather etc....then learn how to make it work in the field, that's all. I presumed he as a 40 year reloader/shooter would assume the steadiest field expedient position possible when hunting...not when wringing out his load and rifle, where anyone would want to be rock solid under ideal conditions. As far as shooting aids go, who wouldn't use them if they work for you. Me personally..I don't care to pack a bipod, a day pack and a hat is about all I want to deal with in the way of rests. As far as the competition guys and the guys that go to the high dollar shooting schools go, I would never criticize them from the fact that 99% of them, at long range, could outshoot my sorry ass in a heartbeat. The op was concerned about going from sub moa to 2 moa at 300 yards on a rotten day with unpredictable winds. Tubb or Tompkins would see the same phenomena with winds like that. I was attempting to reassure him that under those conditions, he and his rifle were doing fine. I reiterate, a sub moa rifle will NOT maintain sub moa out to extended ranges in the wind conditions he described. Fire away.

Untitled by .com/photos/61286670N08/]Sharps Man, on [bleep]

Next time out, prop up ones firearm on a stable platform, look through the scope, and move ones head side to side/up and down and check out just how much his cross hair intersection appears to move at a variety of ranges from near to the extreme horizon. Make sure ones firearm is absolutely stable during those gyrations. That perceived movement is "parallax." At some given range there will be none. Likely near and far, it will be present.

If ones technique is such that his eye is perfectly aligned with his scope's central axis for every round fired, it will never be an issue. That is not the case, however, in most instances. Especially so in contrived field positions. I even have adjustable objectives on my lowly 22 LR's that go to the squirrel fields.

Yes, it can be a significant factor when one is attempting to generate clover leafs at a variety of distances, and is one more variable that can be eliminated with good equipment allowing it to be dialed out at any given range.

It's likely the reason we hear some arguing their arms generate horrid groups at 100, and then their slugs settle down and start doing miracle clover leafs at some extended range.

If it cannot be dialed out, some of the better scope makers can set ones unit up to be parallax free at a specific range. I.e. if one is a 1000 yard competitive shooter, then have his fixed power scope assembled for that range.

It also becomes more of an issue with increases in magnification.

Have a good one,

Thanks for that info on parallelex 1minute. Gonna try that.

I played around with a ballistics calculator. With my load (chronoed at 3070 FPS), the difference in bullet drift between a 10 mph and 15 mph is nearly 3”. When I was shooting my weather ap showed a crosswind of 12 mph but it wasn’t steady. This is probably confirming my belief that I don’t need to shoot much farther than that. At least not until I can get better at this stuff, if I ever do.

But I’m intrigued at guys that can shoot at 600-700 yards+. And I know they exist. Unless it’s a dead calm day like you almost never get in the mountains, ??

You certainly have the right mental outlook and dedication to reach your goals. I'll predict you won't have any problem. If you have a range that has longer distances to shoot, I would recommend that you practice at 400 or even 500 yards. It will make that 300 yarder a chip shot when the time comes. I use clay targets laid out on the face of the berm at longer ranges. It's great practice to learn wind holds and trajectory.

I shoot thousands of round a year and I still get fooled by the winds at those ranges far more often than I like to admit. It doesn't matter if you have a bipod or a benchrest, you are gonna miss sometimes at those ranges.

Agree , me too .
When i lived in Idaho i realised that i wasn't [by many folks definition] a longrange hunter .
I'd place two 12'' steel plates out on a hillside walk back several hundred yards pick a random spot lay down go through my ranging/wind call/dialing and miss the target . Shooting from one hilltop to another at several hundred yards windy conditions was a first round miss far more often than not .
Wyoming - good gracious - wind blows like a constant storm there sometimes for days . 300 yards on some of the ''windy days'' there would be a long shot on a game animal for me .

As others have said I think you'll do great McInnis unlike many people who've told me of their LR abilities .
I'd recommend getting some target bullets/brass/etc. and lots of shooting watching the wind and range with each shot like the shot is at a trophy animal . Walk around rangefinder rocks and do your best to hit them and see where you stand - you'll be a champ at 500-600 yards soonish .

Gravity is a cinch and quite predictable. Wind is a serious question mark. I'd not say I'm a long range person. Seemed popular on TV a couple years back, but gunners were walking around with team and a few lbs of electronics to call all the dope. Unfortunately, I do not, or more likely cannot, afford to get enough big gun slugs down range to have an intuitive feel for handling wind. A lot of difference between a snail's pace 45-70, a screaming 257 Weatherby, and several cartridges in between.

One of my passions, however, is spring time Belding ground squirrels, and I can do 7 or 8 thousand rounds on those in a season. That being, I'm a wind doping SOB with my 22 LR. I may miss a couple initial calls, but in short order might be holding 2 or 3 body widths off in a heavy blow and lobbing things right in there for the rest of the day. Just have a feel for wind now by paying attention to what my exposed skin senses and keeping an eye on mirage. Secondly, one never seems to be crucified here if he admits to gut shooting a rodent. When out after big game, I've never had the luxury of simply trying a few shots on trophy critters to dial things in. Did my first guided outing this past fall and established day one that if one draws blood he is done. No room for sloppy attempts in that arena.

One of my dreams is to one day score a Booner. I've had one opportunity when I was Johnny on the spot opening day of elk season with about 120 head around me. Four hundred + yds and what I'd guess was 40 mph crosswind. Figured I could maybe hit him but no idea where. Settled on a medium 6by that was about 100 yds away.

Have a good one,

"One of my dreams is to one day score a Booner. I've had one opportunity when I was Johnny on the spot opening day of elk season with about 120 head around me. Four hundred + yds and what I'd guess was 40 mph crosswind. Figured I could maybe hit him but no idea where. Settled on a medium 6by that was about 100 yds away."

MAJOR pat on the back to you, 1minute! Shows maturity and wisdom--and respect for the game.

All the above is good. You said rifle is fairly new. Did you do barrel breakin? I know a lot poo-poo it, but my latest toy was sub moa at 200 but was widening at 600+. After 70 or so rounds it was matching sub moa at 600+.

Assuming you 1, have a duplex reticle. 2. have a ballistics table run

1. With your 3.5-10 Leupold on 10X, the distance from the center cross to the point where the fine/bold meet is 5.4MOA.

2. With a ballistics table run on your load, You can use that known and fixed 5.4MOA number to slide windage as necessary and even for a quick holdover if you're not dialing elevation. Quick and dirty rule of thumb, assuming a 200yds zero, the duplex intersection @ 6 O-Clock when on 10X is pretty close to dead on @ 400yds.

Horse1,
In number 1 do you speak from experience with that model scope?
Just curious as when I called the manufacturer to try and verify the yardstick at a known difference. They could not tell me the information you just provided..

With a 270 and 2.5-8 on 8 is pretty spot on at 500

Just learn windage at 200,300 and 400. Practice in windy conditions also. If you think you’ll be shooting steep angles at 3 and 400 learn cosines to be precise. Out to 200 you can hold lower when shooting up and down. Windage at 300 won’t likely be more than 7 inches for a full value 10mph wind. Even less depending on the cartridge. A simple hold off is all that’s required at that range. The key is to learn how to determine wind speed and practice in it. Of course you can just go by a Kestrel if you want. I’m like you and don’t plan to hunt much past 300. I’d rather stalk and close in on the quarry. However, I am always determining wind speed on a daily basis and checking on my Iphone how accurate I am. I watch leaves on trees,flags grass on windy days etc. I then check the weather on my phone and it will give you the wind in the area you are in.For the average non magnum small bore I figure the following for 10mph full wind as a starting reference point: 3”-200yds., 7”-300yds., 14”-400yds. 21”-500yds. Magnums are less. But you really got to verify if you want to be precise. Those are just ball park.

Lordy Lordy!

Good read ^^^^^

If you have the correct equipment which involves expenditure of $$$$$$....that plus LOTS OF TRIGGER TIME will take you where you wish to go!!

When the wind gets up to where its hard to deal with to me, like 20 plus, it also affects how stable of a position I can get. Even prone can get you moving some and if anything other than prone really moving.

The ability to kill to 300 in any condition should make you happy.

If you want to know how your gun really groups, wait until night, no mirage, a calm night with no wind and then shoot groups. If you are still having groups you are not happy with then you have work to do.

One of the most important things is straight ammo. Straighter the better.

Man,"Quigley down under" must have been an unbelievable mathematician with all the equipment in his head plus being an fantastic rifle shot.

Very relevant.

The Duplex reticle in that optic will subtend (measure) 2.6 MOA x-hair to plex post tip, about 5.2 post tip to post tip (thin opening as it's referred to in their catalog). Unfortunately Leupold's Duplex reticles were designed for rangefinding rather than establishing a simple 1-stadia ballistic reticle. Would have been much more practical to have had a 5 MOA subtension, IMO. This was one of the reasons I loved Nikon optics--they always put an even subtension in their plex reticles which is usually very good for longer range apps.

Parallax--had a 3-12X LER optic on a specialty pistol years ago and was beating my head on the bench trying to get an accurate load developed with the rig. Was sitting at the bench mulling it over and thought--hey check parallax, sure enough the parallax was as big as the gp. dialed it out and sure enough it was less than MOA. What a waste of time that was.

A buddy had a 3-12X Konus el cheapo on one of his guns with no parallax adjustment, and when we tried to zero it on his ar at 200 yds. I checked parallax and it was like 3 ft. at that distance. It didn't work very well.

Sometimes I will adjust the optics magnification to establish a second zero for a particular range I may want to shoot with a plex post tip. It's inversely proportional, i.e. suppose your 350-yd. zero is say 4 MOA-- so 2.6/4= X/10, X=6.75X. Now crank the scope to 6.75ish power and the plex post tip will be very close to the 4 MOA. Check it, and hunt with it always at that power.

Sums up my thoughts exactly. Things start to come together with spent primers and pretty quickly from my experience.

I see vertical from inconsistent loading of the rest than anything else. It seems to be especially prevalent with injection molded stocks that will flex to much at the wrist. Second aspect is to check the float on your barrel by putting a small ball of clay between the stock and the barrel. The clay compresses down on the shot and will quickly tell you if there is enough clearance for your stock. I shoot from the ground with a bipod and rear sandbag for both competition, load testing and most of my shots on the field.

i did not read all the replies and i am sure all will help you. here`s another way to learn shooting with a bi-pod and its very fun too ! go shoot prairie dogs this summer maybe even buy a 223 with a good scope on rifle and put that swivel bi-pod on it. you will learn distance shooting at these little prairie dogs ,bring knee pads and elbow pads too save`s on the skin. good luck,Pete53 bring plenty ammo with ! GRIN

PLUS......keep an ACTIVE DATA BOOK!! Write it down cuz you ain't gonna remember it!!

Would it be true then, that at 5x zoom, the vertical post would represent 2.7 MOA? Just trying to figure out different ranging options.

No, it’d be 10.8 MOA on 5x.

I agree. For shooting longer range a guy that knows what hes doing is going to use his pack or other suitable rest, not shooting off hand or sitting etc. Off a pack, a rifle that shoots 1 moa at 100 yards, should still shoot moa at any distance. If its shooting 2 moa at 300, its shooter error, poor load, bullet or parallax. I'd be getting that figured out well before the hunt starts. JMHO..

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, but a 3-shot group that measures 0.75" at 100 yards doesn't necessarily equal a .75 MOA rifle.

You can shoot successive 3-shot groups and one might be 0.75" and the next may be 1.5" with zero effects from the wind, parallax, or whatever, just inherent variability.

In other words, don't read too much into a comparison of two three-shot groups.

Thats a given, but good point. Some may not know that here? One reason I shoot 10 shot groups. When I talk about a sub moa or moa rifle, its a rifle that averages that with 10 shot groups. You also have a better idea of where that rifles true zero is as well. As has been discussed, in other threads, 3 shot groups are damn near worthless when wanting to know the rifles true capability.

Thats a given, but good point. Some may not know that here? One reason I shoot 10 shot groups. When I talk about a sub moa or moa rifle, its a rifle that averages that with 10 shot groups. You also have a better idea of where that rifles true zero is as well. As has been discussed, in other threads, 3 shot groups are damn near worthless when wanting to know the rifles true capability.