Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Basic Questions about distance shooting

I've been reloading and shooting for a long time now, over 40 years. But in the past I have mostly shot at 100 yards for load development. I know what kind of havoc wind can play at longer distances. I live in Wyoming and calm days are rare. That hasn't been an issue in the past because where I've hunted is in the thick timber of the Sierra Madre mountains of southern Wyoming. I've never shot an elk there at a distance of more than 75 yards. But this past year I retired and moved to NW Wyoming and there's a lot of places to hunt here where shots could be longer.

I doubt I'll ever have the skill or confidence to shoot at anything you guys would consider long range, but I figure the experts here can help me understand some things. If I can get comfortable at 300-350 yards, I'll be happy.

Yesterday I took a .270 Win to the range. It's fairly new but has averaged about 0.7 moa at 100 yards for six 3-shot groups with a load I've come up with using 130 grn TTSX bullets. At 100 yards I got a 0.625 group. There was officially a 12 mph crosswind but the range is located between earthen berms and the wind swirls and gusts inside of them. At 200 yds the group opened up to a bit less than 1.5 moa and at 300 yards to a bit over 2 moa.

Would this be considered normal for these conditions? Also, the variance of the groups at 200 and 300 yds were as much or more vertical than horizontal. That kind of surprised me, but is that normal as well?

What is your current scope? Are you shooting from a bench with bags? Bipod? Sled?
Vertical stringing can be caused by many things. Here is a good write up on it.
https://www.6mmbr.com/verticaltips.html

I have a Leoupod VX3 on that rifle, 3.5x10, and use a Caldwell rest with a sandbag for rear support.

In those conditions, sporter weight rifle? What's the problem?

Just to confirm, you’re talking about 2 and 3 MOA groups, not 2-3”, right?

Yes, minute of angle. The group at 300 yards was about 6 inches.

I would say I’m trying more to learn than solve a problem. If I stay within my self imposed range of about 300 yards I could hit the lungs of a deer or elk if the wind isn’t too bad. But there will be days when the wind will be a lot worse than it was here yesterday.

Try using a softer front rest. What rifle? Free-floated barrel?

As usual, I'm running counter to the prevailing wind here on the fire. You have a fine rifle, in a fine caliber. I say, forget the shooting aids, bags, benches and stuff. Verify your preferred zero at your preferred range, memorize your holdovers if necessary and work on hitting a paper plate from real world positions. Shoot sitting over your knees, learn your limitations in offhand, launch a few prone if you think that's something that can be used in your terrain. At 300 yds in flukey unpredictable winds shooting a 6 inch group is just fine. I'd say forget your range with benches and berms, drive out on the prairie and set up with some targets tacked on cardboard boxes. But start with a verified zero under ideal conditions.
When it comes to doping wind in the field without gadgets, there are some very rough rules that can help. Wind speed, look on youtube, there are videos on wind velocity affecting various grasses, trees, leaves, dirt, and then the wild a__ guess. In any case, if you zero your .270 at 200 say, a full value 10 mph wind will push a 150 gr sbt (about the same length as your 130 copper) roughly 6 inches or about 1/2 of your drop. So memorize your drop. If you want to study this a little, the old Sierra 3rd Ed is a good source. Just pick an old Sierra bullet around the same b.c. as your copper 130... all the dope you need, it's all there on one page. One man's opinion.

Does ones scope have the ability to dial out parallax?

No it sure doesn’t. Can that be a factor at 300 yards?

I probably wasn’t clear on my objective. I’m not too interested in getting better groups from the bench by doing things that don’t apply to the field like getting a better rest. I’m really trying to get a feel for my max range with different wind conditions.

I sure appreciate everyone’s input.

Do you use a bipod in the field?

Having a scope with reference marks on the horizontal leg of the reticle will really help you with your wind holds. Have you researched wind values? How much a wind of a given velocity will affect your bullet’s path if it is not at 90 degrees to your line of sight?

John

Another thing that will help, ditch the Barnes and use a higher B.C. bullet.

Great post.
Another thing I'd add is that JBMballistics.com is your friend. Select your bullet & velocity and play around with different wind scenarios to see what your load will do. Remember, a deer has a roughly 10" diameter vital zone. All you have to do is get a bullet within that.

If you’re getting 2 MOA of vertical at 300, it’s good to figure out why that is happening. Hence my suggestion to modify your bench technique. Once you’ve got your load figured out, and it performs as expected out to your maximum shooting distance (should show consistent precision in a no-wind scenario), then start practicing field positions and shooting from improvised rests.

As far as shooting in the wind goes, Hondo and boatanchor are right, you would benefit from learning how the wind affects your bullet, having a reticle that facilitates compensating for the effect, and using a bullet that is affected by the wind as little as possible. If shooting to 300 yards these things are less critical than if you were shooting in the same wind at longer distance, but the wind can still certainly have a noticeable effect at 300. For hunting purposes from 0 to 300 using a high-velocity cartridge like the .270, I would continue to use the Barnes (maybe switch to the LRX), but would practice enough to know how different wind speeds and directions affect the bullet. A good tool to invest in to help you quantify the wind that you feel, and help you learn to estimate that wind, is a Kestrel. Not necessarily for use while hunting, but for training purposes while target shooting and practicing.

And another thing Mr McInnis, good on you sir for having the will to learn your craft, and hold your expectations to realistic distances. I participated in NRA Highpower for many years, and then the real deal with NRA Highpower Sporting Rifle. My take away is, darn few men have any business sniping longrange at game animals using sporter weight rifles from the three basic shooting positions found in the field. True, that was before magic scopes, sniper gadgets and smartphone ballistic programs, but in the end it pretty much boiled down to the shooter and his skill level.
Now the "F" class boys, and the grads of Darrel Holland's, Thunder Ranch etc. are exempt from my criticism.

I prefer to find a field expediant rest, rather than relying on 'the three basic field positions', or better yet, carry your own. Sometimes even a bipod. By the way, don't those f-class boys use a funky bipod? WTF are THEY exempt from your 'criticism'?..... And what does a diploma from that holland guy, do to exempt themselves?

Seeking out an unsteady rest is always my first move when trying to sort out rifle. Great advice

Jeez, I didn't make myself understood. I encouraged the op to verify his zero under the best possible conditions, bench,bags, weather etc....then learn how to make it work in the field, that's all. I presumed he as a 40 year reloader/shooter would assume the steadiest field expedient position possible when hunting...not when wringing out his load and rifle, where anyone would want to be rock solid under ideal conditions. As far as shooting aids go, who wouldn't use them if they work for you. Me personally..I don't care to pack a bipod, a day pack and a hat is about all I want to deal with in the way of rests. As far as the competition guys and the guys that go to the high dollar shooting schools go, I would never criticize them from the fact that 99% of them, at long range, could outshoot my sorry ass in a heartbeat. The op was concerned about going from sub moa to 2 moa at 300 yards on a rotten day with unpredictable winds. Tubb or Tompkins would see the same phenomena with winds like that. I was attempting to reassure him that under those conditions, he and his rifle were doing fine. I reiterate, a sub moa rifle will NOT maintain sub moa out to extended ranges in the wind conditions he described. Fire away.