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This is my first post on the 24 hour campfire forum. I just realized that this is probably in the wrong section, sorry.

I have to admit that I've never owned a 16 gauge, but feel that it is a shame that they aren't more popular.

A magazine article from some years back testing a reintroduced 16 gauge mentioned that 16 gauge guns were often or normally
made using either a 12 gauge or 20 gauge receiver. The author said that they tended to be overly heavy if based on 12 gauge receivers (so offered little or no advantage over buying a 12 ga). He said guns based on 20 gauge receivers were preferable.

So my question is this; what guns (newly manufactured or out of production) use 12 gauge receivers, which use 20 gauge, and which
ones use receivers that are 16 gauge only (if any)?

Off the top of my head, I'm curious about Stevens 311's, Winchester 21's and 12's, Remington autos and pumps (and equivalent Brownings/Savage autos); or anything else that you care to mention. :-)

Many thanks to anyone that takes the time to answer!

Jeff Marshall
Rural Indiana




Last edited by Jeff_Marshall; 01/12/20.

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Ansley Fox 16 gauge shotguns were made on the same size frame as the 20's.

Fox guns came with 4 different barrel weights (1-4) and standard lengths were 26, 28, and 30 inches with 32 inches on special order.

A 3 or 4 weight barrel 16 gauge with 26 or 28 inch barrels will weight between 5 lbs. 14 ounces and 6 lbs 6 ounces or thereabouts.

I have a 16 gauge Fox XE with 26 inch barrels with 3 weight barrels that weighs in at 5 lbs., 14.3 ounces. It is a wand in the hands and a great upland gun.


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Remington used 12 ga frames for all their 16 ga guns as far as I know. Stevens too. Don't look at used Remingtons for a good 16 ga. Winchester Model 12 16 ga were built to scale, and are nice to handle. I had one. I don't know about Winchester doubles. Ithaca made a nicely balanced 16 ga in the old Flues model, but it was not a strong design. I sold mine after using it a few years. The Browning Auto 5 Sweet 16 is famous for its proportions and handling qualities, and is well named. I have a very good modern 16 ga. Browning Citori White lightning built on a 20 ga frame. It is my every day bird gun. Interchangeable chokes and proofed for steel shot. But as a collector I mostly seek out the European guns in 16 ga. I have a Merkel O/U, and a very old Italian SxS hammer "guild gun" that are both beautifully proportioned. The Germans also favoured the 16 ga in combination guns. I have a couple that are nicely built to perfect scale on 16 ga frames - a Krieghoff Drilling and a Heym BBF. Many old 16 ga guns were chambered for 2.5" shells, which you can still buy, but in my opinion the gun has to be nice enough to make sourcing short shells a worthwhile effort.

Last edited by castnblast; 01/12/20.
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In addition to the above:

CSMC will make you a Model 21 16 on the 20gauge frame.

The Model 12 16 gauge was on the 20 frame.

The Spanish AyA, Grulla, Ugaratechea, etc

Parker Reproduction by Winchester's 16 gauge was on the 20 frame.


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Original Parker 0 Frame 16 gauges are built on a “20 Ga.” frame.


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Look at some pre-war German doubles in 16 and you won't have to worry about it. They were on a proper 16 bore receiver from the beginning.


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The Ithaca model 37 uses receivers scaled for the 16 gauge, and are great pump guns.

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Originally Posted by MikeL2
The Ithaca model 37 uses receivers scaled for the 16 gauge, and are great pump guns.


Is that true of the new Ohio made model 37?
I owned one for a short time, it was very heavy


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Winchesters Model 12"s are built on a separate 16 gauge frame and are a joy to carry and shoot! I own various O/U's and SXS's and the Model 12 points and balances along with the best. However no snob appeal!

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Originally Posted by Switch
Winchesters Model 12"s are built on a separate 16 gauge frame and are a joy to carry and shoot! I own various O/U's and SXS's and the Model 12 points and balances along with the best. However no snob appeal!


Sorry, this is incorrect. Winchester made three frames for the Model 12: the 20 gauge, the 12 gauge and the 12 gauge 3” magnum. The 16 (and 12 for that matter) came after the 20, and was built on the same frame, as was the 28 gauge.

You are indeed correct that it is a joy to carry and shoot, as it has the lightest weight for the punch of them all. Mine is a plain field gun with 28” modified choke barrel and weighs in at 6 1/2#.

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The earlier mdl12 16 ga was on a 20 ga receiver. but it wouldent shoot the 2 3/4 shells without a modification.. later it was made on a slightly bigger receiver.. I had both mdls for a long time. the one on the 20 ga frame was my favorit.. I just sold it a couple years ago.. it had the modifications done by a GS in texas to shoot the 2 3/4 shells..I sold it to someone here on24hr campfire.


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Both of my 870's are the same size as the 20 gauge pumps.

The 12 gauge that i have is heavier.

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Originally Posted by Hubert
The earlier mdl12 16 ga was on a 20 ga receiver. but it wouldent shoot the 2 3/4 shells without a modification.. later it was made on a slightly bigger receiver.. I had both mdls for a long time. the one on the 20 ga frame was my favorit.. I just sold it a couple years ago.. it had the modifications done by a GS in texas to shoot the 2 3/4 shells..I sold it to someone here on24hr campfire.


The 16 gauge receivers were not made larger. To accommodate 2 3/4” shells, the ejection port was enlarged and the radius of the corners of the port were changed. Same receiver as before.

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The above is correct.


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Originally Posted by dale06
Originally Posted by MikeL2
The Ithaca model 37 uses receivers scaled for the 16 gauge, and are great pump guns.


Is that true of the new Ohio made model 37?
I owned one for a short time, it was very heavy

I've never seen one of the Ohio guns. I've also never seen a model 37 that I'd call "very heavy". Was it a Deerslayer or ??

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Ohio Ithaca no longer lists the 16gauge. However, when they made it, it was overweight. Something like 7.5pounds. I handled one and immediately put it back. The originals were much lighter.


Found this from 16gauge.com....

http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17689

Last edited by battue; 01/14/20.

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AYA #2 16 ga are on a 16 ga frame, slightly larger action than a 20 ga and much smaller than a 12 ga. We have a couple, as well as a 20 ga. Sold the 12 ga, as I like the 16 ga much better.

As per 870s....the old ones were small frame (family had 2), and I believe a run of new were on the 12 ga, although i never had one and don't want one! Don't know years or serial #s.

I've owned a few M12 16 ga and they indeed were all on the common frame shared by the 20 ga and 28 ga....and a whole lot smaller than the 12 ga frame. The early 2-9/16" gun would function perfectly with black Remington "2-3/4" cases, but not with Winchester or Federal factory ammo as once the cartridge was fired it would not clear the short ejection port. Obviously the Remington cases were shorter. Nice guns!

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I think...………...…. I THINK...………..the Model 21 's in 16 gauge are built on the 12 gauge frame.

I don't have my 12 gauge 21 at home at the moment. But the 16 with 28" barrels weighs in at just under 6 3/4 pounds. Still feels wonderful in the hands. But, seemingly, a good bit heavy, I'm thinking, were it on a smaller frame.

When the 12 gauge comes back home, I can give better info, I reckon


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Hubert I bought a Win Model 12 16 Guage from someone on the fire, has the old style Poly adjustable choke. Nice shotgun have noticed some brands of 16 gauge shells will hang up on ejection.

Last edited by kk alaska; 02/02/20.

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It is often repeated that Remington’s 11-48 had scaled frames. Not sure, because I don’t own one. Many times you will also see written that the 870 used the 11-48’s 16 gauge frame. I’d like to know.

I have a 16 gauge Model 12. It does have the small frame and is sweet to carry, points well, but leaves me sore from heavy loads.

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Originally Posted by kk alaska
Hubert I bought a Win Model 12 16 Guage from someone on the fire, has the old style Poly adjustable choke. Nice shotgun have noticed some brands of 16 gauge shells will hang up on ejection.

The one I sold here had a plain barrel that was bout an inch short I think.. It was a heck of a good grouse gun. I don't know if it had any choke or not. I sold it because of my age and don't know if I would of used it anymore...


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The Browning BPS 16 ga is built on a 20 ga frame. Merkel makes some 16 ga guns, such as the 1620, on a 20 ga frame. I think the Dickinson 16 ga sxs is a 12 ga frame, but I could be wrong on that.

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Remington 11-48 16s did have a 16 receiver, IIRC. I also was thinking rem 31s were scaled correctly, too. Browning Auto 5s in 16 had a 16ga scared frame. They also had a 3-shot version, which lightened the front end, as well as a Superlight on an alloy 16ga receiver. Good luck finding either, but the alloy gun was under 6#, (again) IIRC. Marlin 90s are sought after in 16, and the Winchester 1200 in 16 is a sleeper, cuz it’s on an alloy receiver.

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Originally Posted by Yoder409
I think...………...…. I THINK...………..the Model 21 's in 16 gauge are built on the 12 gauge frame.

I don't have my 12 gauge 21 at home at the moment. But the 16 with 28" barrels weighs in at just under 6 3/4 pounds. Still feels wonderful in the hands. But, seemingly, a good bit heavy, I'm thinking, were it on a smaller frame.

When the 12 gauge comes back home, I can give better info, I reckon


The 16 gauge 21s were built in a 16 gauge frame. I think these feel better than any of the 21s.

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Originally Posted by GF1
Originally Posted by Yoder409
I think...………...…. I THINK...………..the Model 21 's in 16 gauge are built on the 12 gauge frame.

I don't have my 12 gauge 21 at home at the moment. But the 16 with 28" barrels weighs in at just under 6 3/4 pounds. Still feels wonderful in the hands. But, seemingly, a good bit heavy, I'm thinking, were it on a smaller frame.

When the 12 gauge comes back home, I can give better info, I reckon


The 16 gauge 21s were built in a 16 gauge frame. I think these feel better than any of the 21s.


I've not handled any of the other sub-gauge 21's. But between the 12 and the 16, for general day in, day out, upland hunting, the 16 would get my nod.

Yep.


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The proper way to measure a SXS or O/U frame is the distance between the firing pin holes. A 20ga frame that can be barreled for 16ga barrels is to big and not really a true 20ga frame. Look at some prewar European guns for a real 16ga frame. In addition a 16 should weigh less than a 12, many do not.

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Originally Posted by Slope77
The Browning BPS 16 ga is built on a 20 ga frame. Merkel makes some 16 ga guns, such as the 1620, on a 20 ga frame. I think the Dickinson 16 ga sxs is a 12 ga frame, but I could be wrong on that.


I was wrong on the Dickinsons - they are on a 16 ga frame.

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Originally Posted by Ken/Kebco
The proper way to measure a SXS or O/U frame is the distance between the firing pin holes. A 20ga frame that can be barreled for 16ga barrels is to big and not really a true 20ga frame. Look at some prewar European guns for a real 16ga frame. In addition a 16 should weigh less than a 12, many do not.




For the most part that applies today. However, at one time companies like Parker made different frame sizes for the same gauge. There are rare examples of 10gauge barrels on 20gauge frames.

A 16 gauge on any 20gauge frame will be lighter with the16Gauge barrels than if it had 20’s.

Last edited by battue; 02/29/20.

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Parker made 16s on 0,1/2,1 and 3 frame guns over the years. This info is available on the PGCA website. I have an 0 frame that weighs in at 5#14oz w/26" barrels. WICKED little quail gun, great for teal over decoys as well. My prewar M21 is, I believe, on a 20ga. frame. Appears identical to my M21 20 ga. guns, slightly lighter (note: it's a splinter/double trigger, 20's are beaver tail w/sst)

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Stevens/Savage has a new Turkish made O/U built on a scaled alloy frame. It’s lightweight, well balanced and handles great.

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The Winchester model 12 used the same frame for the 20 and the 16 and 28. Yes they are a joy to handle and point very well. I have a 16 gauge that I take to Pelee Island every year for the Pheasant Hunt. The action is not as smooth as a Remington 31, which I also own, put it points and handles better.

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Shotgun details aren't in my field of interest, however. My Ithaca Flues from 1913 must surely be on a true 16 bore frame or built on a 20. It handles like a magic stick.


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Originally Posted by MikeL2
The Ithaca model 37 uses receivers scaled for the 16 gauge, and are great pump guns.


I bought a new made in Ohio model 37 in 16 ga. Not sure of frame size, but it was very heavy. I sold it.


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Originally Posted by dale06
Originally Posted by MikeL2
The Ithaca model 37 uses receivers scaled for the 16 gauge, and are great pump guns.


I bought a new made in Ohio model 37 in 16 ga. Not sure of frame size, but it was very heavy. I sold it.


My first shotgun was an "original" Model 37 16 gauge, a late '40's gun. It handled and functioned like a dream. Unfortunately, a duck hunting mishap consigned it to the bottom of the St. Lawrence river. If I understand correctly, the "new" Ithaca 37's, when they made a 16 gauge (which they don't seem to list anymore) were on their 12 gauge frame. To add insult to injury, they make all their 12 and 20 gauge guns with a receiver for 3" cartridges. To my mind, that's a complete ruination of the Model 37. My current 16 gauge guns are a Fox Sterlingworth and a Merkel 1620. I also have 20 gauge barrels for the 1620 and use those to shoot clays, generally, and the 16 gauge barrels when bird hunting.


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Originally Posted by kingston
Original Parker 0 Frame 16 gauges are built on a “20 Ga.” frame.


I have a Parker reproduction with the 20 gauge factory barrels and the 16 gauge Kreighoff barrels and can confirm that both the reproduction and originals used 20 gauge frame.


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I have an 870 16ga and it is on a 12ga receiver. It handles and balances better than a 12ga for me.


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Originally Posted by dale06
Originally Posted by MikeL2
The Ithaca model 37 uses receivers scaled for the 16 gauge, and are great pump guns.


I bought a new made in Ohio model 37 in 16 ga. Not sure of frame size, but it was very heavy. I sold it.


Yep those are heavy. I have a deluxe vent rib made in 62 that is just right, think it weighs in at 6.5 lbs.

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Originally Posted by Pugs
Originally Posted by kingston
Original Parker 0 Frame 16 gauges are built on a “20 Ga.” frame.


I have a Parker reproduction with the 20 gauge factory barrels and the 16 gauge Kreighoff barrels and can confirm that both the reproduction and originals used 20 gauge frame.



You and I have the same Reproduction set...Very few of them got out....

As far as original Parkers and the 16 Gauge; while some were made on the 20Gauge frame, others were also made on a larger frame.

Last edited by battue; 05/12/20.

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And here is a little mostly unknown fact....

Remington ended up making the last original Parkers, and in fact today will still make you one on custom order.....


http://parkergun.com


Last edited by battue; 05/12/20.

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Originally Posted by battue
You and I have the same Reproduction set...Very few of them got out....

As far as original Parkers and the 16 Gauge; while some were made on the 20Gauge frame, others were also made on a larger frame.


I've only hunted with it once but I have no plans of getting rid of it and hope to use it a lot more. I wish it was IC/Mod but it's skeet and skeet.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Have used this one more than a little....To the point I had to have the wood refinished....the case hardening isn't the best and is almost gone....After that I mostly put it away, why I'm not sure.....the 16 barrels have killed a lot of Ruffed Grouse, the 20 I shot one Grouse with it and put it away....Been thinking about sending it to Rich Cole to have the case hardening done the way it should have been done originally....


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]



[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


Have another original 16 Parker on the larger frame that was my Fathers....



[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Last edited by battue; 05/12/20.

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I suspect that after we get to NH and another pup that it will be my go-to gun.


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They are a bargain for a quality SxS....some in the know say better than the originals, and with modern day dimensions that will come close to fitting most..


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I’ve got a 20ga. Parker Reproduction 2 bbl set too. They’re fantastic little shotguns. I don’t have the Krieghoff 16ga. barrels though. I’d love a set.


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Very few of the 16 gauge barrels got out before production of the repo ended, and many of those that were in waiting were ruined by some type of disaster. Flood comes to mind, but not sure.

Last edited by battue; 06/05/20.

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I’ve posted this previously, but it is still a good read re the Parker Reproduction.

https://shootingsportsman.com/parkerrepro/


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Snoozingbeast. You are correct. Even today you can still find them for 2 1/2", 2 9/16"S and 2 3/4" CHAMBERS

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Snoozingbeast. You are correct. Even today you can still find them for 2 1/2", 2 9/16"S and 2 3/4" CHAMBERS

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The old saying was , Carried like a 20 ga shot like a 12. I must say that is very true. I compete in trap games and only shoot a 16 32" citori. Keep up with them even on shootoffs at the back fence so to say. Easily 35yrds from the trap house. Plus I only shoot 1oz for all games

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I believe, but am not completely sure, that all early Remington 870s wiere built on a 12 gauge frame. The 20, first built on a 12 frame, later came out in a lightweight on it's own frame size. Eventually all 20s were transitioned to the newer, smaller frame. To the best of my knowledge, all 16 gauge 870s were on the 12 gauge frame size, and the one that belongs to a friend of mine, though a nice shotgun, is only trimmer than a 12 in the barrel and magazine tube.

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Correct. 870s were 12 gauge frames and the weight savings was in the barrel and mag tube. Even the vent rib barrels started making the 16s pig ish.

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Originally Posted by Jeff_Marshall
This is my first post on the 24 hour campfire forum. I just realized that this is probably in the wrong section, sorry.

I have to admit that I've never owned a 16 gauge, but feel that it is a shame that they aren't more popular.

A magazine article from some years back testing a reintroduced 16 gauge mentioned that 16 gauge guns were often or normally
made using either a 12 gauge or 20 gauge receiver. The author said that they tended to be overly heavy if based on 12 gauge receivers (so offered little or no advantage over buying a 12 ga). He said guns based on 20 gauge receivers were preferable.

So my question is this; what guns (newly manufactured or out of production) use 12 gauge receivers, which use 20 gauge, and which
ones use receivers that are 16 gauge only (if any)?

Off the top of my head, I'm curious about Stevens 311's, Winchester 21's and 12's, Remington autos and pumps (and equivalent Brownings/Savage autos); or anything else that you care to mention. :-)

Many thanks to anyone that takes the time to answer!

Jeff Marshall
Rural Indiana





16 gauge guns on the smaller frame are awesome! After starting with a 16 I later received a 12 gauge pump at 14. The gun and shells were bulkier with essentially the same ballistic performance as a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 16 gauge load. Winchester Model 12 and Ithaca M37 16 gauge guns are truly everything that you need in a hunting shotgun, especially the solid rib version of each make.

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Originally Posted by 300_savage
I believe, but am not completely sure, that all early Remington 870s wiere built on a 12 gauge frame. The 20, first built on a 12 frame, later came out in a lightweight on it's own frame size. Eventually all 20s were transitioned to the newer, smaller frame. To the best of my knowledge, all 16 gauge 870s were on the 12 gauge frame size, and the one that belongs to a friend of mine, though a nice shotgun, is only trimmer than a 12 in the barrel and magazine tube.


I have a 1951 20 gauge 870 and a 1953 16 gauge 870, both in mint condition. Both are on 12 gauge frames and I believe the serial numbers have an "X" prefix. I much prefer them over the later 870s with the gigantic oversize forearms no matter what frame size the later guns are based on.

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Those corncob forearms are nice!

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I am my no stretch of the imagination a shotgun-guy. I was totally ignorant of the 870 AP models, until yesterday.
But, I picked up a 16 gauge Reminding 870 AP the other day in a firearms store. I was quite surprised at the “lively” feel of this shotgun.
Even as a kid, I don’t recall seeing the round forend 870’s.
I don’t own an original Model 12 Winchester, but have used a few and handled a few. I always like the feel / handling of the ones with the round forend.
Anyways this old shotgun had a great feel to me.

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Originally Posted by model70man
Originally Posted by 300_savage
I believe, but am not completely sure, that all early Remington 870s wiere built on a 12 gauge frame. The 20, first built on a 12 frame, later came out in a lightweight on it's own frame size. Eventually all 20s were transitioned to the newer, smaller frame. To the best of my knowledge, all 16 gauge 870s were on the 12 gauge frame size, and the one that belongs to a friend of mine, though a nice shotgun, is only trimmer than a 12 in the barrel and magazine tube.


I have a 1951 20 gauge 870 and a 1953 16 gauge 870, both in mint condition. Both are on 12 gauge frames and I believe the serial numbers have an "X" prefix. I much prefer them over the later 870s with the gigantic oversize forearms no matter what frame size the later guns are based on.

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