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2 1/2" 12 gauge advice #14286589 11/16/19
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jfw042 Offline OP
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Picked up a lovely little German hammer 12 gauge today, has short chambers - maybe 2 9/16? Have some books that show 2 1/2" load date but am looking for any advice or suggestions from those of you who have some experience building short shells. Thanks in advance

BP-B2

Re: 2 1/2" 12 gauge advice [Re: jfw042] #14287010 11/17/19
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erich Offline
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I rarely shoot 2 3/4" loads any longer even in my 2 3/4" chambered shotguns. I have MEC 600' in 16 and 12 with short shell kits installed. There is quite a bit of info in Ballistic Products "Advantages" shotshell reloading manual. Keep your pressures low to ease the strain on these older shotguns. For waterfowl I load 3/4 oz of ITX 6's in my 16ga and 7/8 oz of ITX 6's and 1 oz of Bismuth in my 12's. I roll crimp my waterfowl/non-tox loads and fold crimp my lead loads 7/8-1oz of lead 5's make a great pheasant load in the 12's, 3/4 to 7/8oz in the 16ga and 1oz of NP BB's in the 16 for coyotes/predators

2 1/2" 16ga 1oz NP BB's
[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

2 1/2" 12ga 1oz 6" (factory B&P High Pheasant 2 1/2")
[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

2 1/2" 12ga 7/8oz ITX 6's
[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]


Last edited by erich; 11/17/19.

After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Heaven has walls and rules, H-ll has open borders
Re: 2 1/2" 12 gauge advice [Re: jfw042] #14293006 11/19/19
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jfw042 Offline OP
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Thanks Erich, cut down some Remington trap hulls & loaded them with 7/8 oz 7 1/2's & a charge of International clays w/ a AA wad. Similar to a load found in the Advantages manual. Hope to get out & try them later in the week

Re: 2 1/2" 12 gauge advice [Re: jfw042] #14300803 11/21/19
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luv2safari Offline
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You might like these:

It saves time and effort, but erich has the technique dialed in. wink

https://rstshells.americommerce.com/store/p/110-12-Ga-2-1/2-Paper-Lite-Vel-1175-1-oz-Load-Box.aspx
https://rstshells.americommerce.com...er-Fibre-Wad-Vel-1225-1-oz-Load-Box.aspx


You will also do fine using 2 3/4" light to moderate loads in it. Get in touch with Mule Deer here about the myth of pressures and standard length shells in slightly shorter chambers.


Hunt with Class and Classics

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Re: 2 1/2" 12 gauge advice [Re: jfw042] #14301462 11/22/19
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erich Offline
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The problem is finding light to moderate 2 3/4" shotshells. Most modern 2 3/4" ammo be it light skeet loads or light field dove loads are designed to reliably operate modern semi autos so they are loaded fairly stout. Pressure does increase with a 2 3/4" shell in a short chamber it might not be as significant as thought in the past usually 1000 psi or less but when you are shooting ammo that is near max to begin with it can get into the significant range especially when your talking about a 100+ year old shotgun. I is hard to find pressure date from manufactures, the only one that I know that published it is P&G and their really nice 2 1/2"(65mm) High Pheasant loads are no longer imported.

Why risk anything with a fine old shotgun when you can easily feed it with the ammunition it was designed around.


After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Heaven has walls and rules, H-ll has open borders
IC-A

Re: 2 1/2" 12 gauge advice [Re: erich] #14315172 11/26/19
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Mule Deer Offline
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erich,

Would like to hear where you obtained the info that pressure increases 1000 psi in 2-1/2" chambers.

The data I have is not just from older sources, but two electronic tests, one made by a major American ammo company.

Am not contesting what you say about higher pressures in older shotguns. Have owned and used many, some made before 1900. Just wondering about the source.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: 2 1/2" 12 gauge advice [Re: jfw042] #14315312 11/26/19
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jfw042 Offline OP
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Ordered & received a case of this - Gamebore 12ga 2.5 Pure Gold #7- from Ballistic Products but haven't had a chance to shoot any of them yet. Wind, snow, sleet, etc. Hope for next week.

Re: 2 1/2" 12 gauge advice [Re: jfw042] #14462340 01/13/20
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castnblast Offline
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I'm not Erich, but think I read the same stuff he does. Here it is:

writer Sherman Bell in his 4+ year, 9-part “Finding out for Myself” series in The Double Gun Journal. Sherman Bell wrote on topics such as: Shooting longer shotgun shells in shorter chambers: 2 ¾” in 2 ½” or 2 5/8” chambers. Bell shoots all sorts of modern loads in antique guns while monitoring pressure with a pizeo-electric device. The results: Pressure difference is minimal at best, often averaging less than 1,000psi difference.

I would advocate reading the article and the caveats before attempting such a practise, a few exceptions do apply. For a careful, thoughtful shooter who has done their research, it's not as dangerous as many think. I personally use short shells in short chambers.

Re: 2 1/2" 12 gauge advice [Re: castnblast] #14468379 01/14/20
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Mule Deer Offline
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castnblast,

Sherman Bell did not use a "pizeo-electric device." There is no such thing.

I suspect you are thinking of piezo-electronic pressure testting, which is done by drilling a hole into the chamber wall, then inserting a piezo-eletcronic transducer into the hole--which provides a pressure reading from the wall of the case.

Bell used an electronic strain gauge, which despite being electronic is a different animal, which rather than a transducer use a stretch-sensitive sensor attached to the outside of the barrel. This can result in relative accurate pressures, but ONLY if various other factors (sensor attachment, correct measuring of chamber thickness, temperature control, etc.) are pretty precise. It can provide a relative pressure for different loads, but as a measure of absolute pressure isn't nearly as accurate as piezo measurement. (As the head of one major pressure laboratory once told me, "There are too many layers between the case and the gauge.")

Sherman Bell's results are very interesting, but hardly the last word on relative pressures with different loads in various shotguns.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: 2 1/2" 12 gauge advice [Re: jfw042] #14468595 01/14/20
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castnblast Offline
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AH! as usual a little knowledge is a dangerous thing! thanks for setting me straight. I did enjoy the test articles Bell wrote in Double Gun Journal, but personally used them for personal interest not for direct imitation. But then I'm a looney handloader and don't mind all the fussy details required to load low pressure & short shells for old vintage guns. I'm still learning, and having fun doing it.

IC-B

Re: 2 1/2" 12 gauge advice [Re: jfw042] #14469365 01/15/20
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erich Offline
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Thank you castnblast. I've read Sherman Bell and a lot of other info over the years. If even changing the crimp from roll to star/fold can make a difference or changing wads an make a difference. It is hard to believe that forcing a larger object through a smaller hole won't, specially when that chamber doesn't have steeply tapered forcing cones to the point that crimps are torn off won't increase the pressure.

I'm just a dude that love shooting old guns and doesn't want to take any chances on hastening their demise in any way. To me shooting ammo that the gun wasn't designed for is a good way make them into wall hangers or worse. The correct ammo is easily obtained.

By the same token of shooting 2 3/4" shells in a 2 1/2" chamber you don't see anyone advocating shooting 3" shells in a 2 3/4" chamber. I've made that mistake and I doubt my nice O/U would have lasted very long on a steady diet of them as I had to replace the wood once from shooting heavy 1 1/4 oz international trap loads when I was competing.


After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Heaven has walls and rules, H-ll has open borders
Re: 2 1/2" 12 gauge advice [Re: jfw042] #14563170 02/11/20
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catnthehat Offline
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Originally Posted by jfw042
Picked up a lovely little German hammer 12 gauge today, has short chambers - maybe 2 9/16? Have some books that show 2 1/2" load date but am looking for any advice or suggestions from those of you who have some experience building short shells. Thanks in advance

Contact ballistic Products,https://www.google.com/search?q=ballistic+products&oq=Balllisitc+Prooducts&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l7.7380j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
they have all the info, data, and components you need to load short and other vintage shells.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Cat

Last edited by catnthehat; 02/11/20.

scopes are cool, but slings 'n' irons RULE!

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