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Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: 257heaven] #14457411 01/11/20
Joined: Dec 2004
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kennymauser Offline
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I have a rifle that wa built by Mickey Coleman and it isn't marked either. The only way I know it was made by him is the guy I got it from knows what he is talking about and knew Mickey Coleman. I choose to believe him, especially after the first time I shot it was with some 150 gr. factory ammo 30-06 Winchester that grouped about a half inch.
A few days later I shot a bull Elk with the same ammo and rifle at 350 yds. The rifle has a Brown Precision stock, adjustable trigger and an extremely nice Mod 70 type safety
I always wished that he had left a mark, but like 257 heaven and others say is there is no builders mark on his rifles.

300 BP

Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14457476 01/11/20
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257heaven Offline
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As I recall, you don't get a build sheet or invoice tied to the serial number, either. He always just PM'd me and told me what I owed.


Sent from my Dingleberry Handheld Wireless
Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: Spotshooter] #14460052 01/12/20
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butchlambert1 Offline
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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
Anyone know which chambering method that Mickey used ?

Between Centers or the Gritters method ?


Mickey chambered in the headstock and sure didn't use the Gritter's method.

Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14460067 01/12/20
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Spotshooter Offline
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The Gritters method is done in the headstock so I’m not sure what you mean..

In general it’s either Between Centers method or the Gritters method - Add one if you know of another.


Spot shooter
Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: Spotshooter] #14463614 01/13/20
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butchlambert1 Offline
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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
The Gritters method is done in the headstock so I’m not sure what you mean..

In general it’s either Between Centers method or the Gritters method - Add one if you know of another.



Sir, evidently you haven't observed much chambering. The Gordy method is a way to indicate a bore when chambering. I chamber in the headstock and don't use or care for the Gordy method. You don't chamber between centers either. You can't get a reamer in a barrel with a center in it. You can machine just behind the proposed tenon to put the steady rest so you can then thread and chamber.
If you are a member (free) you can read this PDF about chambering and add to your knowledge.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/130-page-pdf-of-different-chambering-methods.3912170/

Alpha

Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14464075 01/13/20
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Spotshooter Offline
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Butch,

I meant the process of dialing in a barrel vs. the machining setup.

I.E. Gordy’s method of dialing in to align with the chamber with the bore at the throat as perfectly as possible..
BTW he has updated / improved those older processes you provided in the link from 2000 something... those are a bit out of date to what he teaches today.
That process he has in the videos still works and is repeatable, but he’s done more as well...
Vs.
The dialing in of the bore so the barrel is centered between the bore at the muzzle end (on the spider), and the Chamber end sticking out of the headstock.... I called between centers.
You can do it with a steady rest, but a lot of guys are doing it with a spider and chuck (headstock)...

There are many ways to chamber, but those are the two most common that I know of..
Personally I don’t trust the steady rest method, or indicator rod dial in methods given you can reposition them and they ... hey they aren’t dialed (not repeatable)...


Good to meet you Butch.. smile

“Chambering between centers is the more modern common term” I’m used to hearing so I didn’t think that would be misconscrewed.
... https://rifleshooter.com/2014/09/chambering-a-rifle-barrel-between-centers/

Last edited by Spotshooter; 01/13/20.

Spot shooter
Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: Spotshooter] #14467358 01/14/20
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,170
butchlambert1 Offline
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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
Butch,

I meant the process of dialing in a barrel vs. the machining setup.

I.E. Gordy’s method of dialing in to align with the chamber with the bore at the throat as perfectly as possible..
BTW he has updated / improved those older processes you provided in the link from 2000 something... those are a bit out of date to what he teaches today.
That process he has in the videos still works and is repeatable, but he’s done more as well...
Vs.
The dialing in of the bore so the barrel is centered between the bore at the muzzle end (on the spider), and the Chamber end sticking out of the headstock.... I called between centers.
You can do it with a steady rest, but a lot of guys are doing it with a spider and chuck (headstock)...

There are many ways to chamber, but those are the two most common that I know of..
Personally I don’t trust the steady rest method, or indicator rod dial in methods given you can reposition them and they ... hey they aren’t dialed (not repeatable)...


Good to meet you Butch.. smile

“Chambering between centers is the more modern common term” I’m used to hearing so I didn’t think that would be misconscrewed.
... https://rifleshooter.com/2014/09/chambering-a-rifle-barrel-between-centers/

Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14467410 01/14/20
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,170
butchlambert1 Offline
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I chamber in the headstock. I use a spider on ea. side of the headstock. I have a set of Deltronic pins for each caliber that I chamber, 25 per set, in .0001 increments. I indicate both ends. I predrill and reach in with my Mitutoyo indicator to the throat. It is a 513-504 model. I check the indication at the throat, taper bore, and then ream the chamber. The difference that I see is with the Gordy method the muzzle is flopping around on the LH side of your headstock.
Actually the folks that do a good job in "between centers" did put them between centers to make a cut for the steady that was concentric to the bore. They installed a steady rest to cut, thread, and chamber the barrel.
Spotshooter, very few of the top accuracy smiths use the Gritter method.
Sorry, I came off a little rough with you. Several of us have used the Gordy method, but saw nothing positive with it.
Some have said it aligns the chamber with the bore. So does my method and the muzzle is in line with the chamber.

Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14467675 01/14/20
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,024
Spotshooter Offline
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No problem I knew what you meant..

I never did ask Mickey what chambering method he used, Greg has video’s as Gordy does... so I was just wondering.

I consider Gordy a good friend of mine, beyond me taking his courses on accurizing and building rifles, he helped me setup my shop, and taught me how to chamber. Mickey made some equipment recommendations as well.

Myself - I’m a retired career engineer / ex. Military guy who is more interested in a single ragged hole group than beating the club champ (done that.. not interested) or selling a bunch of stuff.
At the end of the day, I’m interested in comparing methods, and listening to guys who have been there and done ask much as possible while they are still around so I can build rifles that make guys like me smile because you are starting with groups that you try to get out of a factory rifle.

If you wander up around Kansas for a match let me know, we might run into each other... especially if you stop at George’s, or TommE’s...

Regards,
Spot


Spot shooter
Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14468602 01/14/20
Joined: Mar 2006
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Reloder28 Offline
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I have one of bis rifles. Craftsmanship is superb.


L’audace, l’audace, tujours l’audace...
Bravo

Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14468869 01/14/20
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Spotshooter Offline
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Mickey was a great smith... sorry we deviated off that.


Spot shooter
Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14469860 01/15/20
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keith Offline
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throat and Muzzle

Rifles chambered this way shoot fantastic. Old Gritters method is what we call the "flop" method. I would love to see what Gordy is doing now.

Butch's post:

I chamber in the headstock. I use a spider on ea. side of the headstock. I have a set of Deltronic pins for each caliber that I chamber, 25 per set, in .0001 increments. I indicate both ends. I predrill and reach in with my Mitutoyo indicator to the throat. It is a 513-504 model. I check the indication at the throat, taper bore, and then ream the chamber. The difference that I see is with the Gordy method the muzzle is flopping around on the LH side of your headstock.
Actually the folks that do a good job in "between centers" did put them between centers to make a cut for the steady that was concentric to the bore. They installed a steady rest to cut, thread, and chamber the barrel.
Spotshooter, very few of the top accuracy smiths use the Gritter method.
Sorry, I came off a little rough with you. Several of us have used the Gordy method, but saw nothing positive with it.
Some have said it aligns the chamber with the bore. So does my method and the muzzle is in line with the chamber.

This is the start of good shooting barrel. Start at the Start!!! I use a Interapid indicator with a 2.7" arm to reach into where the new throat is going to be. ON longer mag chambers, I use the Mitutoyo 513-204 T which is a pocket indicator to get to the throat. Bug holes abound on hunting rifles. I do not do work for others.

Last edited by keith; 01/15/20.
Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14469917 01/15/20
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ScottBrad Offline
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I owned 5 at one time, down to 2. Those 2 are my favorites and not going anywhere.

Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14471416 01/15/20
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Spotshooter Offline
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For what it’s worth Keith - done correctly both the Gritters and between centers methods align at the end of the chamber (or should)...
The difference is what the 2nd point of the alignment is - the far end muzzle hole, or down the throat further so you have axial bore alignment.

Of course precision measuring / dialing in methods matters in both - and is really the big differentiator on how well axially aligned you end up with the 2 centers or bore at throat alignment.

Mickey thought Gordy was a Good smith and knew what he was doing, so there was some respect there... I know that because I asked him that once myself.
Mickey was a classy guy... I miss him.


Spot shooter
Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: Spotshooter] #14472684 01/16/20
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butchlambert1 Offline
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Originally Posted by Spotshooter

For what it’s worth Keith - done correctly both the Gritters and between centers methods align at the end of the chamber (or should)...
The difference is what the 2nd point of the alignment is - the far end muzzle hole, or down the throat further so you have axial bore alignment.

Of course precision measuring / dialing in methods matters in both - and is really the big differentiator on how well axially aligned you end up with the 2 centers or bore at throat alignment.

Mickey thought Gordy was a Good smith and knew what he was doing, so there was some respect there... I know that because I asked him that once myself.
Mickey was a classy guy... I miss him.




I think Gordy is a good guy and yes, I've visited with him. Let me ask you this, if I indicate the throat, prebore chamber and ream, what are you gaining by using the Gordy method?
If and this is a big "if", how will the Gordy method work if the barrel has a bore that wanders? Have you ever sectioned a barrel and checked the path of the bore. I'll tell you that the bore does not take off in a flat arc. What little the path happens to be is a radial arc and it is not constant.
Remember, I chamber in the headstock and not in the steady
If you actually have any machineshop experience, you can tell me how the base of my chamber cannot be coaxial to the throat.

Last edited by butchlambert1; 01/16/20.
Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14473029 01/16/20
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rj308 Offline
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I sent Mickey Coleman a Winchester SS Classic long action and a hand lapped HS Precision tapered octagon barrel that he put together and chambered in 280AI. I bedded it in a Lone Wolf ultra light stock. It was superbly accurate. I shot a couple of Mule deer bucks with it and foolishly sold it. That is truly, "the one that got away" (due to my stupidity). RJ

Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14475120 01/16/20
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,024
Spotshooter Offline
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Butch ...

If Gordy explained it to you... and you left un convinced I’m not sure me telling why I think it’s good will help you.

that being said - the difference we’re describing is NOT concentric (centered) at the throat..
. it’s alignment of the bore AXIS with the chamber AXIS (Coaxial = 2 axis... concentric = matching centers)

.... but “WHICH” bore axis CENTERS axis , or as the bore as it leaves the chamber ?
** as you said these are different axis ... only slightly given they share the same center....

Do this - Take a soft piece of copper tubing - say 1/4”.... that is 2 feet long and put the slightest of bend in it.

Then take your air hose and fire off 50lbs directly aligned with the end... how does the tube react ?
NOW...angle the air Nossle and repeat that ...

Did the air hitting one side more than the other add any flex / vibration to the system ... OK... add lead, and 50,000 PSI... does it now ?

Eliminating all flexing / vibration generally makes a more stable system, and that often means a better shooting barrel / action...

Ok - I took a shot at answering your question... on why it’s of value...
IF you want to talk how to drive reamers for better holes, that’s a different discussion and best done on PM..

Best,
Spot


Spot shooter
Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: Spotshooter] #14475536 01/17/20
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,170
butchlambert1 Offline
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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
Butch ...

If Gordy explained it to you... and you left un convinced I’m not sure me telling why I think it’s good will help you.

that being said - the difference we’re describing is NOT concentric (centered) at the throat..
. it’s alignment of the bore AXIS with the chamber AXIS (Coaxial = 2 axis... concentric = matching centers)

.... but “WHICH” bore axis CENTERS axis , or as the bore as it leaves the chamber ?
** as you said these are different axis ... only slightly given they share the same center....

Do this - Take a soft piece of copper tubing - say 1/4”.... that is 2 feet long and put the slightest of bend in it.

Then take your air hose and fire off 50lbs directly aligned with the end... how does the tube react ?
NOW...angle the air Nossle and repeat that ...

Did the air hitting one side more than the other add any flex / vibration to the system ... OK... add lead, and 50,000 PSI... does it now ?

Eliminating all flexing / vibration generally makes a more stable system, and that often means a better shooting barrel / action...

Ok - I took a shot at answering your question... on why it’s of value...
IF you want to talk how to drive reamers for better holes, that’s a different discussion and best done on PM..

Best,
Spot


Pm an email, you are still not comprehending what I've posted.

Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: SAKO270WSM] #14476258 01/17/20
Joined: May 2003
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Spotshooter Offline
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Butch -

I think most people would have problems measuring the axis of a throat without indicating on the chamber so unless it’s way out it would be hard to see with a scope as well...

BUT you asked —- so here is one way to do it (not recommending this)

Say a guy is extending a throat with a throat reamer that doesn’t touch the sides of the chamber, and doesn’t dial the barrel in based on the existing chamber... . Then extends the throat.

OK there you go.... throat on one axis / chamber on another .... === not coaxial.
If one did it with a standard reamer and it wasn’t dialed in if the floating reamer holder can’t compensate... you could end up with a screwed up chamber as well so who cares about the misalignment if you ruined the barrel.... (why I didn’t think you actually wanted an answer)...

Cheers.




Spot shooter
Re: Mickey Coleman/gunsmith [Re: Spotshooter] #14479109 01/18/20
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,170
butchlambert1 Offline
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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
Butch -

I think most people would have problems measuring the axis of a throat without indicating on the chamber so unless it’s way out it would be hard to see with a scope as well...

BUT you asked —- so here is one way to do it (not recommending this)

Say a guy is extending a throat with a throat reamer that doesn’t touch the sides of the chamber, and doesn’t dial the barrel in based on the existing chamber... . Then extends the throat.

OK there you go.... throat on one axis / chamber on another .... === not coaxial.
If one did it with a standard reamer and it wasn’t dialed in if the floating reamer holder can’t compensate... you could end up with a screwed up chamber as well so who cares about the misalignment if you ruined the barrel.... (why I didn’t think you actually wanted an answer)...

Cheers.





Young feller,I'm still waiting on an email address as I PMed you as requested. Maybe it is you that needs a lesson in good machine shop practices.

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