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My daughter in law the EMT worked at a US Forest Service rural station, while going to college, one of her side duties at the station was to validate filled deer tags,(required in Calif). They briefly examine the carcass, check the hunter's ID, check to see the tag is properly filled in. But she, as a gun gal and hunter from childhood, frequently questioned the hunters about their kill if they were friendly types. She reported the bucks with multiple wounds were mostly shot with .22 centerfires and .24 centerfires and amazingly with .300 magnums (?).
I'll let you fellas draw your own conclusions if any from her totally informal survey.


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Originally Posted by szihn
Bullet weight and bullet constructions are 2 different things.

I also have heard a lot of storied about deer "getting away" after being hit with 243s. I have also hear a number of identical stories when the shot was made with a 30-06, several with 7MM mags and quite a few with 300 mags and one that got away after being hit with a 45-70.

Any bullet is bad to get hit with for the one getting hit. How bad depends on a lot of different things.
But in my 1/2 century of killing things, the 2 factors that seem to be constant for the best kills are #1 straight penetration with an exit and #2 some degree of expansion or tumbling of the bullet.

The bullet must strike the game in the right place,and that "right place" is about what is inside the game, not a place on the hide. Bullet holes do the killing. The bullet is just a tool to make that hole.

So a bullet that doesn't go through the game at the angle is should can cause a lot of problems. All bullets can sometimes do weird things, but some do it a lot of the time, and some do it about 1 time in 5,000. The ones that break up badly and come apart are the ones that have the greatest percentage of bad results. As I said above, NO BULLET wound can be good for the animal of man hit, but the degree of how bad is variable. I have been hit myself 2 times by bullet and 2 times by fragments, and I am still writing this. Why? None of them were serious wounds because none were in the "right place" (wrong place for me)

In killing game, if you shoot a bullet that will go through and exit at the angle you need it to, and if you place the bullet at that spot and correct angle, you will kill cleanly in probably 99.5% of the shots regardless of what gun or cartridge you fire it from. There are oddities. But the REASON we can call them oddities is how rare they are. I had one last season in November. I killed a white tail with a 300 Savage and my 1st shot was perfect in where I placed it, broadside on the right side of the chest almost perfectly centered but the bullet went in about 2" and turned to the left 90 degrees and went through the deer almost the whole way, and was found about 1" from the skin in the right rear ham. Distance was about 160 yards and the bullet was a Nosler Ballistic Tip HUNTING (not the old BTs that were so prone to blow up) The deer ran about 80 yards after the hit and the next bullet was a head shot. My experience with the new BTs from mid velocity guns has been pretty good except for this one deer. Why? Only God knows.

A good strong bullet for killing deer becomes more important in my opinion, as the bullet gets smaller. I have owned two 243s in the past and one 6MM Remington. I used 100 grain Nosler Partition in all 3 rifles on every deer I ever shot with them, and every one was a one shot kill, none of them ran far (longest was about 25 yards) and all had exits.

I like a bigger rifle for most of my hunting, but I LIKE them, I don't feel I NEED them.

if you use an 80 grain Barnes I think you'd be as well armed for deer and probably better armed then someone else shooting a 7 Mag with a poor bullet that breaks up in the first 2" of penetration.


Excellent post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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There is a huge difference between bullets of the same weight.

Construction and design matter a lot! A Berger 100 gr bullet is not definitely not the same as a Nosler Partition or Barnes TTSX of the same weight. This is true for all calibers-not just the lightweight I used as an example.


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Originally Posted by flintlocke
My daughter in law the EMT worked at a US Forest Service rural station, while going to college, one of her side duties at the station was to validate filled deer tags,(required in Calif). They briefly examine the carcass, check the hunter's ID, check to see the tag is properly filled in. But she, as a gun gal and hunter from childhood, frequently questioned the hunters about their kill if they were friendly types. She reported the bucks with multiple wounds were mostly shot with .22 centerfires and .24 centerfires and amazingly with .300 magnums (?).
I'll let you fellas draw your own conclusions if any from her totally informal survey.
Not knowing where those wounds were, I'd not draw any conclusions from that other than the deer with multiple wounds were killed by hunters who couldn't shoot for shyt. I've killed dozens of deer with .223's and .243's and none required a second shot.

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I killed my largest mule deer with a Model 70 .243 and a hand loaded 100 grain Hornady BTSP over 30 years ago. Last year, my wife killed her first deer ever with a Browning BLR in .243, with a hand loaded 100 grain Speer and my hunting buddy has taken 2 cow elk with a .243 and Nosler Partitions. No problem with any of those kills and all were 1 shot. True, 4 animals isn't a definitive test, but I think a .243 with a bullet around 100 grains is plenty for deer.

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Just my opinion but I'd say one group of dedicated .243 shooters are fine shots, surgical maybe.....kind of like the chukar hunters that do well with a 28 ga. These hunters with veternarian's knowledge of anatomy would do well with a .22 Hornet.
Then there is a more sizeable group that are not riflemen, know nothing of anatomy, totally unaware of the term "bullet construction", shoot at a road sign to sight in, fire maybe 10 shots a year...with predictable results. All this can be said of any cartridge, but it seems a lot of them select the .243. Which ain't the .243's fault.

Last edited by flintlocke; 05/28/20.

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Originally Posted by flintlocke
Just my opinion but I'd say one group of dedicated .243 shooters are fine shots, surgical maybe.....kind of like the chukar hunters that do well with a 28 ga. These hunters with veternarian's knowledge of anatomy would do well with a .22 Hornet.
Then there is a more sizeable group that are not riflemen, know nothing of anatomy, totally unaware of the term "bullet construction", shoot at a road sign to sight in, fire maybe 10 shots a year...with predictable results. All this can be said of any cartridge, but it seems a lot of them select the .243. Which ain't the .243's fault.


You're not wrong. When I've seen the .243 "fail" it's been the wrong bullet chosen, often combined with the wrong shot angle and/or bad weather and tracking conditions. A quartering to or away deer that gets no exit wound and runs off into a pine/briar thicket that is full of existing deer tracks can be hard to find in the dark. An experienced hunter who marks his deer's location before he pulls the trigger and sends a good-penetrating bullet on its way stands a much better chance. If it's not rainy and nasty and you are shooting Partitions, a .243 will generally treat a hunter well if he understands what he's working with.


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Originally Posted by JPro
Originally Posted by flintlocke
Just my opinion but I'd say one group of dedicated .243 shooters are fine shots, surgical maybe.....kind of like the chukar hunters that do well with a 28 ga. These hunters with veternarian's knowledge of anatomy would do well with a .22 Hornet.
Then there is a more sizeable group that are not riflemen, know nothing of anatomy, totally unaware of the term "bullet construction", shoot at a road sign to sight in, fire maybe 10 shots a year...with predictable results. All this can be said of any cartridge, but it seems a lot of them select the .243. Which ain't the .243's fault.


You're not wrong. When I've seen the .243 "fail" it's been the wrong bullet chosen, often combined with the wrong shot angle and/or bad weather and tracking conditions. A quartering to or away deer that gets no exit wound and runs off into a pine/briar thicket that is full of existing deer tracks can be hard to find in the dark. An experienced hunter who marks his deer's location before he pulls the trigger and sends a good-penetrating bullet on its way stands a much better chance. If it's not rainy and nasty and you are shooting Partitions, a .243 will generally treat a hunter well if he understands what he's working with.


yet these same people say it's a good choice for women and kids? a 30-06 round placed badly won't magically make the deer recoverable. it's laughable the arguments people make. I've seen several deer killed with a .223 with adequate bullet placement. I've seen poor placement from a 12 ga slug through the front shoulder and the deer ran 2 miles and another 1/2 mile shot through the hind quarter/guts. most damage control folks I know use 204's and 22-250's for a lot of work on critters bigger than deer. making the argument that "I'm not a good shot so I'll use a bigger gun" is dumb at best, irresponsible at worst


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Although it runs counter to freedom loving Americans, there is an answer. You should have to demonstrate safety and competency with the firearm of your choice before you purchase a license. Many states require it for CCW permit. I think most countries in Scandinavia require it. It's not real difficult, I think in Sweden you have to hit a stationary moose target and a running moose target at 80 meters, offhand. After all, we take driving tests (thank God), pilot training, talk about boat licenses now (that test should require the applicant to be on crack from what I see on local lakes) and don't forget, you need a license to drill a well.


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None of those things are uninfringable constitutional rights. They are privileges. We can't let it start there or they will unravel the whole document

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If you can’t kill deer with a .243 I doubt the cartridge is the problem.


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I haven't had a failure with a 243 in whitetail. Be Well, Rustyzipper.


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I really honed my blood trailing skills when my friend started using a 243. One thing I cannot fathom is the number of hunters that apparently cant resist the urge to use the lightest varmint bullets they can find on deer. WTH? If it's a 243 and its deer, for Gods sake use a well constructed bullet. How hard can it be to grasp that?


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Originally Posted by flintlocke
Although it runs counter to freedom loving Americans, there is an answer. You should have to demonstrate safety and competency with the firearm of your choice before you purchase a license. Many states require it for CCW permit. I think most countries in Scandinavia require it. It's not real difficult, I think in Sweden you have to hit a stationary moose target and a running moose target at 80 meters, offhand. After all, we take driving tests (thank God), pilot training, talk about boat licenses now (that test should require the applicant to be on crack from what I see on local lakes) and don't forget, you need a license to drill a well.



An odd notion to be coming from the State of Jefferson.

The present system is just fine. Passing a competency exam doesn't convey judgement or presence of mind to anyone. Deer are large targets and easy to kill. Running game targets are poor simulations for teaching how to hit anything except maybe moose or running boar. Deer, like Tigger, like to bounce. From my discussions with other hunters, many already pass on moving game unless it's very close or already wounded. That's my practice, and how I trained my sons.

The last thing we need is another way for Antis, many of which already infest our F&G establishments, to futz around with our hunting privileges.


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Originally Posted by Godogs57
I really honed my blood trailing skills when my friend started using a 243. One thing I cannot fathom is the number of hunters that apparently cant resist the urge to use the lightest varmint bullets they can find on deer. WTH? If it's a 243 and its deer, for Gods sake use a well constructed bullet. How hard can it be to grasp that?

Better learn your buddy to shoot, my feeling is you would be tracking just as much with a larger cartridge/caliber.

While I have used 95 grain Partitons on my last 2 deer I never had much trouble killing them with 70 grain Ballistic Tips or an 80/85 grain Sierra. These bullets killed deer just as well as the Partitions have so far.

Ranges under 50 yards at most times as well.

Use something too stout and it punches through deer. I want some pretty good destruction to lay blood out if they shluld happen to run out of sight which has only happened to me a few times in the last 25sh years.

Deer around here arent that big, average buck might go 180# with a few 200-250# crtitters. Not exactly a large critter that's too difficult to get a bullet into.


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Gamekings and Balistic Tips are my favourites but I don`t shoot any hyper velocity magnum cartridges.

Bullet failures:

120gr 7mm V-Max that hit the shoulder blade of a quartering on roe deer, changed course and slid under the skin, stopping when it reached the on side ham

100gr 6mm Pro Hunter, same case as above on a very large red deer

120gr 6,5 TTSX that zipped through the lungs of another roe deer

107gr 6mm Matchking, same case as above

187gr 8mm that made a grenade like wound upon hitting the humerus of a roe deer

All deer were retrieved and butchered. Some were finished off with a second shot, some were found with the help of my Bavarian Mountain Blood Hound.

The use of a tracking dog is quite popular in Europe but you don't seem to use them in America... aren't they allowed or what? Apart from being a great companion when I spend time a field alone, in the cabin or when driving to and from my hunting lease, it can provide an unvalualbe help to track a wounded deer, or finding a dead oneshot at last light, for example.

Here is Mauser, with a nice buck I shot at the edge of a young oak tree forest. Hit in the lungs, it jumped in the air and was on a dead runf for 200 yds. An easy job for Mauser!


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I try to keep a tracking dog all of the time. The current one is a small, cream colored, long haired dog my wife got from the dog pound. She did not know much of anything when we got her, but now is a great dog, except for the shedding. Follows a trail real good. In the past, I had good luck with Great Pyrenees. miles


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Pappy 348, I hear you, the notion of "qualifying" through another government entity....not my best thought or finest moment. I guess there is no substitute for hunting ethic learned at our father's side.


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Some people over estimate any cartridges ability. "If it goes bang, dead deer!" Until bambi runs off. Then they can't believe it.


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Originally Posted by Filaman
Some people over estimate any cartridges ability. "If it goes bang, dead deer!" Until bambi runs off. Then they can't believe it.
It's usually the other way around. Guy whacks a few deer with a .30-06 and sees them run 50 yards before they fall. He reasons that if they run 50 yards after taking one through the lungs from a .30-06 they'll go at least twice as far with a .243. Nothing could be further from the truth.

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