Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders "This is a Muzzleloading Game-Changer"

"Traditions Firearms, Federal Ammunition and Hodgdon Powder combine forces to launch two of the most innovative products the hunting industry has seen in years."

https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/...lWdiECIG-PHZeTXKI0#.XiXAQXtQgik.facebook

It is not even a legal muzzleloader in Wisconsin. According to our laws, there has to be a breech plug and must be loaded from the muzzle. It is nothing more than a plastic case and even has the primer in it already. I shot my TC Hawken today. I used my own patches and round balls with real black powder. I dont know why anyone would want to hunt with anything else . I do have 2 inlines but rarely shoot them. They are nowhere near as fun to shoot as my Hawken . With free lead all I pay for is powder and a cap. It runs me about 25 cents to shoot a round. I just load 50 or 60 gr. of the real stuff and enjoy.

Is this a joke? Where of where has muzzleloading gone?
I predict the aberration will go the way of the CVA Electra.

I guess it's talking a lesson from the homos and is "identifying" as a muzzleloader............. It's "trans-cartridge".

That has to be one of the dumbest ideas I have seen in one hell of a while!

Pushing $5.00/shot is going to doom it all by itself. Single sourced EVERYTHING??? Best way I know of to guarantee even higher prices and difficulty finding what you need to make it go bang. Pre-determined charges will not allow for adjustment for accuracy.

The advertising claims are absurd.

From the article;

"However, antique firearms and even modern inline muzzleloaders do have their frustrations and limitations. So much so, that the hassle of operating them can be a deterrent for some hunters and can be considered a barrier to enter the sport."

And children, this is why we have cartridge guns. So use them. The frustrations and limitations is what gave the sport it’s mystique.

I general do not wish to comment on the modern stuff. I say to each his own. No issues with the inlines etc. But this is nothing but the same method of evolution that original muzzleloaders went thruto metallic ctg rifles back in the day. With new technology.
All this is, is modern marketings take of Joslyn, Burnside, Smith, and the several other breechloading hermaphrodite guns that came out of the American Civil War. Now as then, they are not muzzleloaders

To any who wish to purchase and hunt with such a rifle I say go for it. More power to you. Just do not try to pass it off as something it isn’t.

Yup, same for NY. In fact, I can't imagine it would be legal in very many states.
I don't see why they call it a muzzleloader when it loads from the breach. I just thought it was an interesting article.

It appears that muzzleloading is going the same direction as archery. I started with a recurve and watched as the world went to the compound, then the crossbow. I have my TC Hawken and my Lyman GPR that I shoot. It seems that all a lot of people want is an easy way to go kill something. I appreciate the day spent in the woods and actually having to hunt and stalk.

IMO....pathetic. Not interested in the least bit.

I'm with deltakid. I've been shooting a recurve or longbow for over 50 years and a T/C Renegade for 40 years. WAY too much technology in today's "primitive" weapons for my liking. Hell, wheely-bow shooters set sight pins for 100 yards or more and muzzleloader hunters are slapping 4-12 power scopes on their guns. I prefer to do my hunting before pulling the trigger or releasing the bowstring. For me, it's all about seeing how close I can get to the animal, not how far away I can be and hit it.

Why is it not a cartridge rifle? You load a cartridge and shoot. No way a muzzleloader.

The advertisement for this new system really rubbed me the wrong way. My responses in red

As long as there have been muzzleloading firearms, their shooters have been burdened by unreliability, inconsistency and safety concerns. That said, the list of muzzleloader complaints are as follows.
1.Environmental conditions can lead to powder charges exposed to moisture. Moisture leads to misfires. A muzzleloader shooter must always be aware of exposure to moisture such as rain, snow or moisture sweating — coming in and out of the cold — when operating a muzzleloader.

Which is part of why muzzleloaders are considered "primitive" weapons in hunting regulations. Using BH209 mitigates much of the moisture concern.

2.Dirty powder residue and powder fouling reduce the ability to load and shoot quickly, accurately and repeatedly without cleaning between shots.

How many follow-up shots does a hunter need? With proper selection of projectile, sabot, load, primer I think most muzzleloaders are capable of a second shot without swabbing. Using BH209 makes this a moot point.

3.Spent powder residue attracts moisture and leads to corrosion which can lead to damage done to the inside of the breech area and barrel. This makes rifles hard to clean, as well as requiring a lot of cleaning between uses.

Learn to clean your muzzleloader and this is a non-issue.

4.Dirty primer pockets and hard-to-clean breech plugs could lead to misfires. The hassle of inserting or losing primers, plus keeping them protected from the elements, are always concerns.

Once again, learn to clean your muzzleloader and is a non-issue.

5.Loose powder charges measured by volume are not very precise and could lead to inconsistencies in accuracy. For example, not pouring the exact amount — too much or too little— of powder every time you load the rifle.

Use proper techniques and volumetric measured charges are quite accurate. Weighing powder charges is always an option.

6.Due to human error, there is always a risk of crushing propellant pellets when loading bullets on top of them — meaning pushing the bullet down too much. Or not pushing down the bullet enough, leaving an air gap between the powder charge and the bullet. These common loading and charging errors cause inconsistencies in accuracy.

Use proper techniques.

7.Due to human error, there is always a risk of overfilling a powder charge to dangerous levels or using incorrect powder such as smokeless powder in a muzzleloader firearm designed for traditional black powder or black powder substitute.

Don't be an idiot and this is a non-issue.

8.Once opened, traditional loose powder or propellant powders can be exposed to moisture and other damaging elements or become old, leading to inconsistent powder charges resulting in accuracy issues.

Properly store powder.

9.To unload, it’s typical to fire the rifle or safely take out the breech plug to remove the powder charge. This can be a loud annoyance or hassle and wastes money in spent bullets and powder that need to be replaced.

I unload my muzzleloader by shooting it.

10.The use of muzzleloaders is not as common as centerfire rifles. The process of loading, unloading and cleaning has been known to prevent people from trying it out. This new system makes selecting the powder aspect much easier. The loading and unloading process has now been streamlined, and much of the mystery of “How do I do this?” is taken out of the equation.

God forbid a shooter learns a new skill. This new system seems to be aimed at the lowest common denominator. The bottom of the barrel of hunters. The sort of fellow who maybe takes his rifle out to shoot a few days before deer season, declares a group that looks like a scattergun hit to be "minute of deer!" then proceeds to gut shoot his intended target.

Where is the link for Triple 8? Is it real?

While the ad shows a link for Triple 8 it isn't on Hodgon's website. Did a search and the computer only showed triple 7.

This new firearm shouldn't be defined as a muzzleloader as powder is added to breech area.

Looked around some more. While powder information cannot be found, there are several links for the rifle.

This is from one link:


How about this as a lead in commentary? "Every year at SHOT Show we think about what would be the biggest story of everything we have seen. This one is going to be tough to beat!"



"Range Day was a first look at this gun, and according to the Traditions company, it will have no legal problems at all in all but “about 10 states.” Traditions is in contact with the legislative activists and regulatory agencies in those states to hopefully overcome these obstacles. It certainly does bring a new dimension to a whole extra month of deer season in many states. We look forward to getting one in for review."

link: https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/...ge-muzzleloading-forever-shot-show-2020/

Personally, I’m still amazed how we were able to accomplish so much as a kid in 1973 with a T/C Hawken or a repro Zouave musket. . Home made accoutrements. And the passion to hunt. How did we accomplish anything "back then” with out the interweb!

Why do some continue to harp on the complexity of muzzleloading? When it reality it is so simple.

This is muzzle loading in name only. I thought inlines were getting away from the sport, but this is insane!

A solution in search of a problem.
I wouldn't buy it.

Don't they have any "rocks what'll spark" where you live? That's a shame!
Jerry

Of course they have their limitations, that's the whole point. If you don't want limitations, use a centerfire rifle.

Not legal in CO for the special early ML season, but legal in the rifle seasons. "LImitations" is the only way CO justifies an early season.

Just another BULLS HIT sales gimmick in an attempt to make the millennials feel like Daniel Boone!

I hate purists!
And hypocrites.

Of course, hypocritical purists, are special.

I have no problem with that rifle, if I didn't have an in-line,
it might be one I would buy.

Ironic the posters complaining about this, but the use percussion
guns. Do you use plastic devices to hold pre measured powder?
Think about it. You are closer than you think. And are taking advantage
of technology to make this all easier. What clothes do you wear mz hunting?
Wool, leather, cotton? Or products designed after the 1840's?


If you are using anything other than wood, bone, sinew, or rock in archery,
How can you criticize a crossbow? How much tech is ok?
Amazing the guys that buy a new compound ever two years to "keep up"
only to then bitch about crossbows.


Kaywoodie,

I apologize.
Having oogled some of your rifles, I pigeon holed you into
being against something like this.

I was way wrong.

And you gained a lot of respect with your post.

Not a game changer, over the same rifle, with 2 50gr pellets 777, and a 295gr Powerbelt....

I can't answer that. I'm just hoping they come out with a breech loading rifle soon so I don't nave to keep loading through the muzzle.

Like the CVA Electra, this one is a turd floating in the water. It'll be gone by next year.

To me a muzzleloader means loading from the muzzle end. The powder charge is part of the load, not just the projectile. This isn't a muzzleloader. It's a hybrid.

If it were a .52 cal that would sell like hotcakes! .....Oh wait.......

Gonna get one to go with my Gyrojet, my Daisy VL, and my Dardick.

Agreed...

... they'll sell like hotcakes! lol

A clever (and frugal) character with one of these would have someone like MCAce crank out a couple of brass versions that would be reusable.

This ain't a whole lot different than the everlasting cases the old target shooters used to use, some with muzzle-seated bullets too, IIRC.

One thing's certain; someone who enjoys shooting his rifle, not just hunting with it, is going to cough up some serious money to play.

If I was in charge of a game department I would simply ban it. If you're going to have a primitive season, people hunting in that season should use primitive weapons, period. No gaming the system!

People who bought these contraptions could still use them... in the regular rifle season.

But I'm not.

When will they announce the new belt fed muzzle loader?

On a slightly more serious note, the idea is not new. Harry Pope made muzzle loading cartridge guns famous over 100 years ago. Properly managed they can be stupid accurate. Barry Darr built the one I have.

Need to call it the 50 Creedfagmore. Good grief, what's next. A brass case, smokeless powder and a jacketed bullet but with a ramrod under the barrel?
I'll stick to my Leman halfstock or my flinter.
This thing, like the rest of the inlines belongs in modern rifle seasons.

I hate cheaters. Or people who pervert the concept of "primitive" weapon seasons.

The bullet is loaded from the muzzle...

The plastic cartridge is probably there to claim the case is not reusable...

I looked it over and shot it at Media day and it was reasonable in most respects and I know there were people I wish were using this when I helped them kill muzzleloader moose...

The Alabama section of Pennsylvania.
Where we cling to our God and Guns.

Given the above Alabama, God and guns comment, which are you, hypocrite or purist or hypocritical purist? Obviously, as you have someone(s) you hate, professing to be clinging to God makes you a hypocrite, yes?

I don't care for the concept of the firearm nor would I ever buy one but, I don't hate anyone for using a crossbow or an in-line though I would not use either.

Exactly. The inventor of the Butt Out tool got into muzzleloader design.

No control over custom tuning load, and a plastic case that goes into the recyling waste bin.

You got that right so you load what amounts to a shotgun shell and a separate bullet and this is supposed to be a muzzleloader.I don't believe that would be legal in Pa. even for the early season that allows inlines.

It would never fly in Oregon as you have to use even primitive sights during the muzzle loading season. Cheers NC

My concern would be with cleaning the bore. How are you going to be able to clean around the bullet shelf? Seems like a prime place for fouling to collect and very difficult to clean that area.
Having said that, I am glad to see a company trying something new. I am not going to buy one right away. Its good to have choices.

Maybe I'm behind the times, but when did you ever have to fill out a 4473 to purchase a muzzleloader???

The first Savage 10ML required one because, with a barrel swap, it became a cartridge rifle. Same with a non-FX Encore.

Thank you for the info tmitch.

I'm still killing deer with a .54 cal sidelock. Always figured since it did it's job so well there was no need for an inline.

Agree’d
Absolutely stupid.

For years in Illinois

The only thing it changes is the amount of money in your wallet. It wont be legal in states that dont allow pellets or smokeless. You can bet your ass some poor idiot will reload one of them sticks.

Already saw a YouTube video on a homemade version of this, stepped chamber and all, using a shotshell, IIRC. Like I said, use what you want, but I'd personally be leery of investing in a new-tech toy that might go , along with its ammo, if it falls flat in the market, for whatever reason(s).

Remington 700 EtronX anybody?

Shirley you jest?

Yep, another innovation looking for a niche. IMO: This one will go the way of the electrically fired CVA.