There is little doubt that humans and dogs are naturally inclined to be best friends. But when and how did this dynamic duo first emerge? Conventional wisdom holds that agrarian man domesticated scavenger canines about 15,000 years ago. However, recent archaeological discoveries and DNA analyses show that not only is our friendship closer to 30,000 years old (possibly 40,000 years) but also that man did not master and breed wolves into companionable dogs. Rather, our relationship was built on mutual benefits and respect.
This new reality has been made strikingly clear by the discovery of a set of footprints indicating a small child walked alongside a large wolf some 26,000 years ago.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
Maybe the wolf was stalking the child?? Or the other way round? Walking alongside is an assumption...just like the cat tracks in the snow by my home this morning..I followed it to the end of the back field, but it looks like we were walking together. Then again, maybe there is a trail cam pic?
yeah its pretty much conjecture like most scientific stuff that happened in the distant past.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
Too bad they didn't offer enough evidence in the story to prove what they are attempting to make the readers believe. First, If this were anywhere near true, it'd have been taken note of many times before in many ways.
Since they failed to give details of what brought them to such an absurd conclusion it was probably just a dog lovers dream.
I read the article expecting some sort of proof, like the overlapping of the tracks first being child over K9 then vise versa. If they'd had documented something like that, it'd been stated and pointed out I'd think.
Instead, the story goes the other direction, the tracks were found "deep in a cave".... Tracks laid down in a cave will not weather nor age very quickly. The K9 tracks could have been made hours, days, weeks or even years apart from when the child entered and passed through the cave.
Poorly written story for offering proof, if it really exists at all.
Maybe the wolf was stalking the child?? Or the other way round? Walking alongside is an assumption...just like the cat tracks in the snow by my home this morning..I followed it to the end of the back field, but it looks like we were walking together. Then again, maybe there is a trail cam pic?
Quote
In the back of the cave, one can see the ancient footsteps of a small child walking alongside a wolf
The cave would be the kids home you'd think so either the pooch was part of the tribe or …. he hunted down the kid in his cave and et him!
I've had Ancient Origins bookmarked for a long time. I find it fascinating.
“What if dogs were put in the ‘human family’ category as an extension of the hunter, and like humans, warranted no (or very few) painted or engraved depictions?” asks Anne PikeTay of Vassar College (Shipman, 2016).
Hmmm...Native Americans bred them to eat. The Corps of Discovery found dog meat to be a delicacy.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
Most of the natives had dogs around these parts. I don't think they'd be all lovey dovey about them like we are but they coexisted and benefited from each other. A dog in bear country is a huge asset. Or to pull you over snow in a sled. Near here in the lower Fraser valley evidently the tribes on the north side of the valley had dogs with very wooly hair. They used to make blankets out of the wool. Those dogs are now extinct.
There was a well at the back of the cave, the kid fell in. Lah Seh the wolfdog went for help and invented barking.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
Made jest at me when I was pumped up about seeing the movie "Alpha" about a yr or so ago.
Ancient man and wolf story.
Also got told by other peckerwoods on here . I was supporting Hollywoods liberal agenda by going to a movie for the 1st time in well over 10 yrs since seeing the 1st " Incredibles " movie with the wife and 3 daughters when they was young.
Made jest at me when I was pumped up about seeing the movie "Alpha" about a yr or so ago.
Ancient man and wolf story.
Also got told by other peckerwoods on here . I was supporting Hollywoods liberal agenda by going to a movie for the 1st time in well over 10 yrs since seeing the 1st " Incredibles " movie with the wife and 3 daughters when they was young.
not saying its not possible hell i have a fox in my house, just saying you can't come to a conclusion from 26000 yr old tracks.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
If this were true, why haven't they found ancient dog food factories?
Of course I know you're joking, as the very notion of commercial dog food is only about a hundred years old. Prior to that, dogs just ate scraps from butchers (mainly bones), wild game processing scraps, and what was left of what folks prepared for themselves to eat (table and kitchen scraps), supplemented by whatever the dogs could catch in the yard.
If this were true, why haven't they found ancient dog food factories?
Of course I know you're joking, as the very notion of commercial dog food is only about a hundred years old. Prior to that, dogs just ate scraps from butchers (mainly bones), wild game processing scraps, and what was left of what folks prepared for themselves to eat (table and kitchen scraps), supplemented by whatever the dogs could catch in the yard.
We kept the native's names for the types of salmon here. Chinook, Soceye, Coho, pink (ok we made that one up) and Chum.
Chum are numerous and pretty easy to catch but they degrade pretty quickly when they hit fresh water to spawn. Chum translation = dog salmon
It’s not the first time I’ve heard of the man and dog evolution going back that far. Back in 91 when I was a USAF MWD handler I had read about dogs separating from wolves to coexist with humans back when they were hunter gatherers. I don’t recall what evidence they had but I do remember hearing about it that long ago and dogs being the first domesticated animal and that they were “self domesticated “. Also heard that the fact that their digestive system being able to break down complex carbohydrates and other starchy foods somehow speaks for a certain amount of evolution that can date the relationship back several thousand years.
Imagine the 1st guy that patted one that finally came in from outta the dark around a campfire 10,s of 1000,s yrs ago for a peice of meat out of his hand.
Imagine the wolf/dog overcoming its instinct to do that.
Or stuff along those lines.....
Instead of being competitors Both started working together. Strengths of each multiplied by working together.
Deal was sealed ..... 2 species that evolved together.
I am amused when ever I read suppositions of how wolves and humans came to bond together.
People are people and have always been people. The brain was a little smaller, and language and arts less refined, but they were people still. Even 40 or 50 thousand years ago.
You wanna know how humans and wolves came to live together, ask stxhunter and his little fox.
When people actually live IN the environment, they coexisted with the animals. Not like Disney. Like raw nature. Some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you.
But in every case folks like little cuddly babies. They pick them up at any opportunity. They kill the mothers and carry the baby back to the village.
Heck, when we were kids on the farm we had little wild life around. But still we managed to catch several baby skunks and dig up a couple fox dens over the years. The foxes lived in a kennel outside for several years and subsisted on feral cats tossed their way. So they never became semi domesticated like Roger's has.
But you know, in a hunter/gatherer society, someone is going to stumble across a litter of baby wolves playing outside the den one day. Or they are going to catch the momma wolf in a snare and eat her. Or they are going to catch a pup in a snare and drag it home. But every few years someone is going to capture one and take it home to his lady companion or his kids. Perhaps if young enough, the pup might have even been reared on human breast milk. And with hundreds and hundreds of tribes living alongside wolves in disparate portions of the globe for tens of thousands of years, there had to be thousands of wolf pups captured and domesticated and even eaten over the millenia.
I do not understand where all the mystery or romance comes from?
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
Most of the natives had dogs around these parts. I don't think they'd be all lovey dovey about them like we are but they coexisted and benefited from each other.
A some years ago when they discovered the feral Carolina Yellow Dog or “Carolina Dingo” folks leapt to the conclusion it hadda be some sort of Indian dog, genetic testing showed different, just a feral Euro dog after several feral generations.
There was a popular assumption that Indian dogs had to be wolf-life (completely ignoring the existence of chihuahuas) as if a largely unbiddable and independent dog would be of any use at all in the woods. Worse, in hostile country such a dog could give your presence away and possibly get you killed.
You prob’ly already know about the Tahltan Bear Dog, a knee-high Indian breed resembling a short-tailed spitz type, and reportedly a fine companion dog in the woods. Sadly extinct, likely due to disease. A fate which apparently befell a number of native dog types..
Less well known is the fact that in Eighteenth Century accounts and portraits of the Iroquois and other Eastern Tribes, similar dogs to the bear dog in size and appearance appear, often a single dog sitting or standing (no leash) close by its presumed master.
IIRC one account from Canada had this sort of dog ranging about forty yards out front of an Iroquois hunting party, much as one might expect a American rat terrier to do today.
I’m on a iPhone right now, but if you google up Southwestern Indian dog mummy, you’ll see an image of one lop-eared medium sized brown and white dog that could pass for a modern spaniel. No idea if that one retrieved.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
So??? Why did not the kids or dogs tracks get washed away by rain, snow, sleet......wind? I mean.....sometimes I can’t find tracks left from a day earlier....much less a week, month, year....26,000 years..
Imagine the 1st guy that patted one that finally came in from outta the dark around a campfire 10,s of 1000,s yrs ago for a peice of meat out of his hand.
Imagine the wolf/dog overcoming its instinct to do that.
Or stuff along those lines.....
Instead of being competitors Both started working together. Strengths of each multiplied by working together.
Deal was sealed ..... 2 species that evolved together.
this
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
Made jest at me when I was pumped up about seeing the movie "Alpha" about a yr or so ago. LMFAO!!!!!
No reason to insult Salty there cheesebreath.
At the time of that movie a suggestion was made by a cool guy here that you go find an injured adult wolf and bring it home. Why it’ll be a wonder dog in no time at all 😎
Actually even wolf pups grow up into horrible pets, turns out when they get to be around two years of age THEY wanna be the Alpha. And there’s that whole issue of killing your neighbors’ kids on account of they are from rival packs.
Essentially a good dog is a retarded wolf that, at around age two, doesn’t suddenly try to kill you in order to become the Alpha.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
So??? Why did not the kids or dogs tracks get washed away by rain, snow, sleet......wind? I mean.....sometimes I can’t find tracks left from a day earlier....much less a week, month, year....26,000 years..
Makes total sense man really excellent purely fact based observation.
Made jest at me when I was pumped up about seeing the movie "Alpha" about a yr or so ago. LMFAO!!!!!
No reason to insult Salty there cheesebreath.
At the time of that movie a suggestion was made by a cool guy here that you go find an injured adult wolf and bring it home. Why it’ll be a wonder dog in no time at all 😎
Actually even wolf pups grow up into horrible pets, turns out when they get to be around two years of age THEY wanna be the Alpha. And there’s that whole issue of killing your neighbors’ kids on account of they are from rival packs.
Essentially a good dog is a retarded wolf that, at around age two, doesn’t suddenly try to kill you in order to become the Alpha.
Then you keep talking.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that. Craig Douglas ECQC
People tend to make pets of things, most anything, always have, especially if it’s a baby.
Just by chance someone adopted a retarded wolf puppy ( no insults please).
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
Imagine the 1st guy that patted one that finally came in from outta the dark around a campfire 10,s of 1000,s yrs ago for a peice of meat out of his hand.
Imagine the wolf/dog overcoming its instinct to do that.
More inclined to go with Idaho shooters idea that early Man had come across pups and raised them.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Made jest at me when I was pumped up about seeing the movie "Alpha" about a yr or so ago. LMFAO!!!!!
No reason to insult Salty there cheesebreath.
At the time of that movie a suggestion was made by a cool guy here that you go find an injured adult wolf and bring it home. Why it’ll be a wonder dog in no time at all 😎
Actually even wolf pups grow up into horrible pets, turns out when they get to be around two years of age THEY wanna be the Alpha. And there’s that whole issue of killing your neighbors’ kids on account of they are from rival packs.
Essentially a good dog is a retarded wolf that, at around age two, doesn’t suddenly try to kill you in order to become the Alpha.
Nice try at a spin. Meant for you and only you.... Just like this below: LMFAO!!!!
People tend to make pets of things, most anything, always have, especially if it’s a baby.
Just by chance someone adopted a retarded wolf puppy ( no insults please).
when they think your their mama it makes it easier.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
Imagine the 1st guy that patted one that finally came in from outta the dark around a campfire 10,s of 1000,s yrs ago for a peice of meat out of his hand.
Imagine the wolf/dog overcoming its instinct to do that.
More inclined to with Idaho shooters idea that early Man come across pups and raised them.
I am amused when ever I read suppositions of how wolves and humans came to bond together.
People are people and have always been people. The brain was a little smaller, and language and arts less refined, but they were people still. Even 40 or 50 thousand years ago.
You wanna know how humans and wolves came to live together, ask stxhunter and his little fox.
When people actually live IN the environment, they coexisted with the animals. Not like Disney. Like raw nature. Some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you.
But in every case folks like little cuddly babies. They pick them up at any opportunity. They kill the mothers and carry the baby back to the village.
Heck, when we were kids on the farm we had little wild life around. But still we managed to catch several baby skunks and dig up a couple fox dens over the years. The foxes lived in a kennel outside for several years and subsisted on feral cats tossed their way. So they never became semi domesticated like George's has.
But you know, in a hunter/gatherer society, someone is going to stumble across a litter of baby wolves playing outside the den one day. Or they are going to catch the momma wolf in a snare and eat her. Or they are going to catch a pup in a snare and drag it home. But every few years someone is going to capture one and take it home to his lady companion or his kids. Perhaps if young enough, the pup might have even been reared on human breast milk. And with hundreds and hundreds of tribes living alongside wolves in disparate portions of the globe for tens of thousands of years, there had to be thousands of wolf pups captured and domesticated and even eaten over the millenia.
I do not understand where all the mystery or romance comes from?
There's good reasons that theory (once popular) has been rejected. The best theory is self-domestication. Wolves captured as pups don't make helpful companions for humans in the least. There's no way primitive man would have wasted resources on an eater that doesn't contribute significantly to their survival.
Imagine the 1st guy that patted one that finally came in from outta the dark around a campfire 10,s of 1000,s yrs ago for a peice of meat out of his hand.
Imagine the wolf/dog overcoming its instinct to do that.
More inclined to go with Idaho shooters idea that early Man had come across pups and raised them.
Imagine the 1st guy that patted one that finally came in from outta the dark around a campfire 10,s of 1000,s yrs ago for a peice of meat out of his hand.
Imagine the wolf/dog overcoming its instinct to do that.
Or stuff along those lines.....
Instead of being competitors Both started working together. Strengths of each multiplied by working together.
Deal was sealed ..... 2 species that evolved together.
All y’all did see “Dances With Wolves “ didn’t y’all?
What more proof do y’all need?
Grins
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
All y'all are supporting that liberal agenda that was mentioned about "Alpha".
Surprise no one else has brought it up.
There weren't no humans, or dogs 26000 years ago.
The world is only 4000, OK, maybe 6000 years old, depending on the interpretation of the calendars. "Giants" (dinosaurs) walked the earth back then and their fossilized remains are there to test us. Eohippus did not evolve into Black Beauty and Man O War. Dire Wolves did not evolve into Lassie and Ol Yeller.
Everything, I mean EVERYTHING come off that Ark just like it is and is sposed to be.
Y'all thinking some child been walking with the wolf in the back of the cave that long ago are walkin' with the Deceiver, Ol' Mr Pointy Tail hisself.
Better get right.
GEno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
All y'all are supporting that liberal agenda that was mentioned about "Alpha".
Surprise no one else has brought it up.
There weren't no humans, or dogs 26000 years ago.
The world is only 4000, OK, maybe 6000 years old, depending on the interpretation of the calendars. "Giants" (dinosaurs) walked the earth back then and their fossilized remains are there to test us. Eohippus did not evolve into Black Beauty and Man O War. Dire Wolves did not evolve into Lassie and Ol Yeller.
Everything, I mean EVERYTHING come off that Ark just like it is and is sposed to be.
Y'all thinking some child been walking with the wolf in the back of the cave that long ago are walkin' with the Deceiver, Ol' Mr Pointy Tail hisself.
You subtract from a wolf to get a dog. Want short hair? Block the gene pathway that makes guard hairs (easy to do, any one of several genes along the path will do).
Want a black dog? Melanism is also found in wolves, want a yellow dog? block the gene pathways for the other colors that combine to make grey.
Short legs? Exact same thing as dwarfism in humans. Bent over ears? Leave the ears in puppy form, block the genes that make em stand up.
Then select for certain specific traits of wolf behavior you want. Tracking? Wolves do that too as part of their repertoire, retrieving? wolves do that to. Pointing? Yep. Protection dog? Wolves attack and kill intruding wolves.
Google up late term wolf fetus. Pretty much exactly like a chihuahua complete with soft spot in the skull. A case of arrested development.
What separates a dog from a wolf is a short stretch of identified DNA, which somehow imbues the dog with an ability to interpret human facial expressions and mannerisms. Wolves can’t, even if adopted as young pups.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
[quote=renegade50]Imagine the 1st guy that patted one that finally came in from outta the dark around a campfire 10,s of 1000,s yrs ago for a peice of meat out of his hand.
Imagine the wolf/dog overcoming its instinct to do that.
More inclined to go with Idaho shooters idea that early Man had come across pups and raised them.
Long ago discredited, and for good reason.
Discredited by who and how.
TRH: As a long proponent of evolution, I am surprised by this response from you.
I am not saying that every wolf pup brought home to the tribe became domesticated, nor that they did so in the first generation. But after thousands upon thousands of captured pups over thousands of years a few learned to live with their host humans, and every subsequent generation was culled for compatibility.
Even if the original captured pup only survived in the village for a couple years, that is enough to get two litters to cull from.
If we can solidly demonstrate that chijaujaus, shelties, poodles, yorkies, GSD, English bull dogs, Irish wolf hounds, Australian dingos, great Danes, all from the smallest to largest have been selectively bred from parent stock wolves, why should it be hard to understand those same parents could be selectively bred for cooperative behavior and hunting ability. They would soon become a valuable asset to the tribe rather than an expensive novelty.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
What separates a dog from a wolf is a short stretch of identified DNA, which somehow imbues the dog with an ability to interpret human facial expressions and mannerisms. Wolves can’t, even if adopted as young pups.
That is an interesting tid bit.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
Very interesting. The tracks are there so this event happened but there are lots of things to wonder about.
The article says the small child (approximately 5'2" tall, how tall was an adult in those days?) was walking in the back of the deep cave with his buddy the wolf-dog. With no adult supervision? Nobody noticed him wandering off or went to search for him? So, this small child had enough wit about himself to carry a torch and also knew how to clean the torch and keep it going. I don't know much about caves but I assume there would be enough air flow to keep the torch burning.
There must have been enough of an increase in the air flow to dry out the clay soon after the tracks were made to preserve them for thousands of years. But then nobody else other than this small child and his wolf-dog were curious enough to explore the cave before it dried out.
At some point the walls of the cave dried out enough to hold whatever primitive paint these guys had to make their drawings. Going from a mud floor to walls dry enough to paint on would take some serious air flow.
The floor of the deep cave was semi firm mud at the time so the explorers left tracks going in. Why was the floor muddy? Did it periodically flood? So it apparently didn't flood after the tracks were left or the tracks would have been washed away. Was the floor wet because of seepage and water percolating through the cave ceiling? Why weren't the tracks dissolved?
Were the tracks made at the only time in thousands of years of geological history that conditions were perfect for leaving them preserved for us to speculate on?
All y'all are supporting that liberal agenda that was mentioned about "Alpha".
Surprise no one else has brought it up.
There weren't no humans, or dogs 26000 years ago.
The world is only 4000, OK, maybe 6000 years old, depending on the interpretation of the calendars. "Giants" (dinosaurs) walked the earth back then and their fossilized remains are there to test us. Eohippus did not evolve into Black Beauty and Man O War. Dire Wolves did not evolve into Lassie and Ol Yeller.
Everything, I mean EVERYTHING come off that Ark just like it is and is sposed to be.
Y'all thinking some child been walking with the wolf in the back of the cave that long ago are walkin' with the Deceiver, Ol' Mr Pointy Tail hisself.
Better get right.
GEno
LOL!!!!
Are you scoffing.
DO NOT scoff.
He's making a list..........................your name is on it.
Scoffers go to the bottom of the list.
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
Most of the natives had dogs around these parts. I don't think they'd be all lovey dovey about them like we are but they coexisted and benefited from each other.
A some years ago when they discovered the feral Carolina Yellow Dog or “Carolina Dingo” folks leapt to the conclusion it hadda be some sort of Indian dog, genetic testing showed different, just a feral Euro dog after several feral generations.
There was a popular assumption that Indian dogs had to be wolf-life (completely ignoring the existence of chihuahuas) as if a largely unbiddable and independent dog would be of any use at all in the woods. Worse, in hostile country such a dog could give your presence away and possibly get you killed.
You prob’ly already know about the Tahltan Bear Dog, a knee-high Indian breed resembling a short-tailed spitz type, and reportedly a fine companion dog in the woods. Sadly extinct, likely due to disease. A fate which apparently befell a number of native dog types..
Less well known is the fact that in Eighteenth Century accounts and portraits of the Iroquois and other Eastern Tribes, similar dogs to the bear dog in size and appearance appear, often a single dog sitting or standing (no leash) close by its presumed master.
IIRC one account from Canada had this sort of dog ranging about forty yards out front of an Iroquois hunting party, much as one might expect a American rat terrier to do today.
I’m on a iPhone right now, but if you google up Southwestern Indian dog mummy, you’ll see an image of one lop-eared medium sized brown and white dog that could pass for a modern spaniel. No idea if that one retrieved.
Yep I'd heard of the Tahltan dogs, not much about them though. Interesting sideline.. had a neighbour a couple places back that went up there to teach for the Tahltan people in the late 70s or so. This is up there a ways like Alaska up there. He had a lot of wild stories from his time up there. He only spoke highly of the people but just the remoteness, grizzly bear stories, wolverine stories and stuff. He came back with a souvenir, the rear quarter of his 75 Power Wagon was stove in with custom grizzly pin striping. Its still a pretty remote place still and sure as hell was then.
It’s really not that hard to domesticate a species.
The Russians experimented with domesticating the fox. Didn’t take but a few generations, and they had a friendly fox with piebald coats and floppy ears......
First, I reject the assertion that hunter gatherers of that era “did not have the resources” to be able to afford a “unproductive” experiment keeping a dog. Humans of that era were identical to modern humans, with the same social structure. Some guy, probably physically fit AND smart would be in charge of a pretty large group, and he’d have a need for a range of status symbols. Keeping a pet wolf would sure as heck impress itinerant salesmen and rival tribes. Can you imagine the stories around the campfires? No, a pet wolf would NOT be “unproductive”.
Second, why the assumption that the dogs primary role was as a hunter? Wouldn’t it be much more logical that the primary role of the pet wolf was as an alarm / defense nature? If you are competing with other tribes for territory, caves, hunting grounds, having yourself a guard wolf to alert you to shenanigans, that would be one heck of an advantage.
Probably not popular with the kumbaya crowd, but even today, far more dogs are protectors than hunters.
It’s really not that hard to domesticate a species.
The Russians experimented with domesticating the fox. Didn’t take but a few generations, and they had a friendly fox with piebald coats and floppy ears......
First, I reject the assertion that hunter gatherers of that era “did not have the resources” to be able to afford a “unproductive” experiment keeping a dog. Humans of that era were identical to modern humans, with the same social structure. Some guy, probably physically fit AND smart would be in charge of a pretty large group, and he’d have a need for a range of status symbols. Keeping a pet wolf would sure as heck impress itinerant salesmen and rival tribes. Can you imagine the stories around the campfires? No, a pet wolf would NOT be “unproductive”.
Second, why the assumption that the dogs primary role was as a hunter? Wouldn’t it be much more logical that the primary role of the pet wolf was as an alarm / defense nature? If you are competing with other tribes for territory, caves, hunting grounds, having yourself a guard wolf to alert you to shenanigans, that would be one heck of an advantage.
Probably not popular with the kumbaya crowd, but even today, far more dogs are protectors than hunters.
Wolves make very poor guardians of humans/properties, and poor alarm animals, too.
not saying its not possible hell i have a fox in my house, just saying you can't come to a conclusion from 26000 yr old tracks.
Rog,
I dunno at what age a grey fox matures, or if it does like a wolf does. Might possibly see some significant changes in behavior.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
The article says the small child (approximately 5'2" tall, how tall was an adult in those days?) was walking in the back of the deep cave with his buddy the wolf-dog. With no adult supervision? Nobody noticed him wandering off or went to search for him? So, this small child had enough wit about himself to carry a torch and also knew how to clean the torch and keep it going.
Wasnt all that long ago society allowed kids as young as six to work in attrocious condition coal mines. And society had many kids that through circumstance nobody really much cared about.
26,000 yrs ago i cant begin to imagine how kids were treated or what was normally expected of them.
Might be reasonable to say they grew up fast In those tough times out of sheer necessity.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
I should add, while you are subtracting from a wolf to get a dog, select for a smaller brain in the dog. This smaller brain may be responsible for the somewhat infantile behavior that persists ithroughout life in a dog and may also reflect the fact that life for dogs, nurtured and sustained as they are by humans, is not nearly as complex and difficult as it is for a wolf.
The other thing while we’re talking arrested development, make the teeth of dogs smaller and less sharp than they are in wolves, especially with respect to the canines.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
our whippet's teefers might be smaller, but they don't seem much duller.
Little rat/rabbit killing teeth. Might have been bred back to sharpness in back in Old Britannia.
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
Are these the same scientists that have been trying to sell us that global warming chit ?
No, just the ones that are trying to sell humans and dogs existing 26000 years ago.
Sheesh, there weren't even a world then.
GEno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
What separates a dog from a wolf is a short stretch of identified DNA, which somehow imbues the dog with an ability to interpret human facial expressions and mannerisms. Wolves can’t, even if adopted as young pups.
That is an interesting tid bit.
Also what makes wolfdog hybrids such a roll of the dice. Some turn out more doglike in behavior, other more like a wolf. The really dangerous ones start out dog like in behavior then at some point switch.
While the prey drive can be an expensive liability, treating humans like they were rivals from another pack can be much more serious.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
What I've found interesting is that dogs of the same basic size, from the same bloodlines, even the same litter, can have different size canines.
There's that dang diversity creeping up with its ugly head again I guess.
But yeah, in general, wild dogs do have larger canines than our domestic breeds.
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
grey foxes are the most primitive form of canines more like cats.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
Probably not popular with the kumbaya crowd, but even today, far more dogs are protectors than hunters.
The idea can be tossed around until the end of time, yeah it sounds all tralala and everything but the missing link is the proof.
The story in the original post offers much less than any proof. If the childs tracks were found on top of the K9's and also the K9's on top of the childs all in the same length of walk, that could be the start of proof.
It's not how the story goes, the story reads much like this thread. Short on proof and long on what a wonderful though....
Ancient man has been studied for years, asking for a little proof isn't out of the question...
I saw the thread title and thought someone found where Poobs started training dogs.......timeline's about right......
Well,
I wasn't going to say anything but didn't he invent the dog?
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
There's no wolves in Australia. But there's dogs. Discuss quietly amongst yourselves..
Yes, it is generally accepted that the dogs rode along on the same boats as the humans which it seems most likely originated from India. Or so I have read.
Dutch, I read an extensive article in Nat'l Geo a couple years ago about that Russian Fox Fur Farm. It is interesting to note that the proprietor of the farm was sent to the Gulag.
The study, or even mention of selection of the fittest, evolution, or Mendelian Inheritance in general was strictly forbidden by the Stalinists. Such data simply did not fit the Communist agenda of "everyone is equal in all respects".
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
There's no wolves in Australia. But there's dogs. Discuss quietly amongst yourselves..
Domestic dogs gone feral, not selected for affinity to humans for millennia. They make awful pets, even more so than our own Carolina Dog, but apparently not as dangerous as wolves.
Incidentally, the Indian wolf (in India) is relatively short-haired and largely yellow in color.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
i think we should just be thankful that canines and man became dependent on one another, how we will never know.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
i think we should just be thankful that canines and man became dependent on one another, how we will never know.
Better having them hunt for me than having them hunting me.
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
i love dogs and as much as i hate to admit, cats also.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
i love dogs and as much as i hate to admit, cats also.
Our whippets love cats too......................
that's why I can't have any.
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
The Dingo is thought to have played a part in displacing native marsupial predators such as the Thylacine from the mainland. The Dingo arrived after Tasmania was separated from the mainland, so species like the Thylacine and Tasmanian Devil lived on in Tasmania after going extinct on the mainland.
The Dingo is also evidence for wolf descendants living and hunting cooperatively with humans before agriculture. Among other things, the pure Dingo tends to lack the genes for digesting grains and other complex carbohydrates, and is related to Asiatic wolves.
If you read Meshack Browning's memoir, there's a period there where he was hunting in the company of wolves. Browning would put a ball into a deer and then the wolves would run it down for him. He'd come along, finish off the deer and gut it. The wolves would feast on the viscera. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. The wolves figured out that a human was very handy to have around, and they quickly formed a symbiotic relationship. Given that simple scenario, I'm pretty sure that it did not take much for dogs and humans to learn how to benefit from each other.
The other thing that comes to mind here is how diverse the levels of intelligence of both species seem to be. I've seen dogs that were dumb as posts, and a very few that seemed to be close to my own. Dogs have a complicated social system to deal with this amongst themselves, just as humans do. So it makes sense that they could recognize intelligence in others and learn to leverage it. I once had a dog that taught himself how to use the cable remote so he could watch Lassie on Animal Planet at 4 AM. He would switch over to Lifetime to watch Miracle Pets at 11.
The African Wild Dog is only distantly related to canis familiaris. They cannot interbreed, whereas canis familiaris can interbreed quite easy with Dingoes.
Yet according to TRH theres no chance primitive man would have and support a wolf type that could not provide much of any benefit.
Not to any significant degree. It probably happened from time to time. But this cannot explain the appearance of the domesticated dog, which even in very primitive form would have been tremendously useful to a hunter gatherer community. Ordinary wolves raised by hand, not so much. They'd be more of a pest and a useless eater.
The best explanation is that phase-one of domestication occurred without human intention, i.e., wolves splintered off a subspecies that specialized in living off of man's excess food scraps, bones, guts, etc.. and that the most human-aggressive among these were regularly killed off by man, causing a gradual decrease in the presence of human-aggressive genes within this subspecies, till eventually the subspecies became quite accustomed to man's presence, and even cooperative with him to a certain extent. From there, man found uses for this much more tractable wolf subspecies (e.g., pulling sleds), which eventually (through constant human selection for particular traits) became canis familiaris.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
If you read Meshack Browning's memoir, there's a period there where he was hunting in the company of wolves. Browning would put a ball into a deer and then the wolves would run it down for him. He'd come along, finish off the deer and gut it. The wolves would feast on the viscera. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. The wolves figured out that a human was very handy to have around, and they quickly formed a symbiotic relationship. Given that simple scenario, I'm pretty sure that it did not take much for dogs and humans to learn how to benefit from each other.
This.
Quite a different scenario than some guy taking in a litter of wolf pups, and maintaining a steadily reproducing population of them, till they become dogs.
dogs at least some dogs, are a lot more complex than people give them credit for. I live with four of them, three being goldens. it would take a long time to describe all their behavior, but they do tell the time of day , i.e. feeding time regularly scheduled, they know my moods and if i am feeling well, can read you like a book. mine know when i am going somewhere, particularly in what we call the "dog car" an xterra with the back seats down for them. they are sound trained to alert if somethings outside, definitely reconize certain relatives. They also seem to decide who is trustworthy and not. i have seen them inside the fence at one of my houses where the fence is next to the sidewalk. some people don't rate much attention, but they really raise a ruckess if a black walks past. Some people they watch like a hawk, others they are accomodating too. I have had several that made excellent hunters on birds and small game, and fully expected to share the rewards. one golden would sit patiently while i cleand quail, and put on the grill, expecting her share. she would give me a discusted look sometimes when i would miss shots. they have emotions, dreams, and definitely communicate, both with each other and us humans. i just know they are better companions than most people i have ran into.
The world is only 4000, OK, maybe 6000 years old, depending on the interpretation of the calendars.
Everything, I mean EVERYTHING come off that Ark just like it is and is sposed to be.
GEno
What does that have to do with this thread? Nobody with an IQ has believed such fairy tales for 200 years or more.
i'm hoping its satire. geez, my dna markers have been traced to the end of the ice age on the steppes of russia, a lot longer than 4k years ago. on the other hand, they may have been good swimmers, and just missed the boat.
one thing i do know, having been around two different 80% or better wolf hybreds, they are not the same as domesticated dogs. Think and act totally differently. you haven't lived till you had a 150pound hybred perched on top of you on the floor, face inches from yours, with those yellow eyes looking deep into you. Would make my hair stand up on the back of my neck. even my goldies knew the difference. when sam was a pup she was introduced to a wolf hybred pup. she promptly hid and wouldn't get near it.
not saying its not possible hell i have a fox in my house, just saying you can't come to a conclusion from 26000 yr old tracks.
Period paintings show Indians with all kinds of weird pets. One of my favorites shows William Penn negotiating with Indians. One of the Indians had a pet Blue Jay.
After more research from this amazing discovery, it was indeed verified that the child was traveling to Grandmothers house. Further DNA samples of the canines scat indicated that it did not end well for Granny....
My takeaway from this thread is that people who have spent their lives within the confines of the city do not understand the penchant for wild humans to collect the creatures they stumble across out in the wild.
Some would do well to actually read the data collected on that fox farm in Russia, to understand how few generations it took to create a semi domestic fox simply by selecting for less aggressive pups. Not only did the animals behavior change within the adult lifetime of one human, the animals' physical characteristics changed also. No selection was made for physical characteristics, only for behavioral.
I guess their will be no proof until someone puts several hundred grey wolfs into captivity and selects for behavioral characteristics over twenty or thirty generations. One could make a lot of lovely coats from the culls, and sell the carcasses in the meat markets of Korea.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
not saying its not possible hell i have a fox in my house, just saying you can't come to a conclusion from 26000 yr old tracks.
Period paintings show Indians with all kinds of weird pets. One of my favorites shows William Penn negotiating with Indians. One of the Indians had a pet Blue Jay.
Things are complicated. Could it be that people raided dens AND had wolves approach camp fires AND loosely hunted with them like M. Browning? People don't seem to get how long a thousand years is. It's a lot of time for things to happen!
Things are complicated. Could it be that people raided dens AND had wolves approach camp fires AND loosely hunted with them like M. Browning? People don't seem to get how long a thousand years is. It's a lot of time for things to happen!
I agree with you. I just try to not fall into the notion that a single snap shot in time can depict with any degree of accuracy the support any given narrative. Humans are just to prone to seeing most everything from their own personal perspective.
These scientists remind me of guys like Christopher Hitchens, Antlers and Antelope Hunter - total tunnel vision, no imagination to speak of.
Yeah 'cause religious folk are so open minded to other beliefs.
Sheesh.
Classic pot, kettle.
One of the points that stick out in my mind is the prohibition against oysters and crabs. The bunch I named can only think that it is a stupid prohibition. What they don't seem to grok is the possibility that people of those times "buried" the dead in the water or offered human sacrifices to the water and that is what the Israelites saw. What would you think if you pulled up an anchor that had a dead body stuck on it with a bunch of crabs feasting on it? Or how about pulling up a skull with oysters stuck to it? Would you eat those?
I have a friend that grew up in pre-war China. He talks about people bathing in the rivers as bodies and garbage floated by. This sort of thing still happens in India. Care for some Ganges shrimp?
It’s hard to consider some of those ankle bitters dogs. But, they’re just inbred for many generations to be small. I guess I’d be pissed too all of the time if that was done to me.
I doubt we will never truly know how dogs came about or how anything really happen as none of us were there. All I know for sure is that in my opinion no other animal can connect with a person quite like a dog. I’ve have witnessed through working with them in hostile environments how truly loyal they can be. A dog will give its own life to protect its owner/master/ handler whatever. I haven’t witnessed that behavior in any other animal. So, I’m inclined to believe that the relationship is deeply rooted in our history of evolution and that it was one of coexistence. Just my warm and fuzzy take.
It’s hard to consider some of those ankle bitters dogs. But, they’re just inbred for many generations to be small. I guess I’d be pissed too all of the time if that was done to me.
I doubt we will never truly know how dogs came about or how anything really happen as none of us were there. All I know for sure is that in my opinion no other animal can connect with a person quite like a dog. I’ve have witnessed through working with them in hostile environments how truly loyal they can be. A dog will give its own life to protect its owner/master/ handler whatever. I haven’t witnessed that behavior in any other animal. So, I’m inclined to believe that the relationship is deeply rooted in our history of evolution and that it was one of coexistence. Just my warm and fuzzy take.
Yeah, we co-evolved, for sure. We've merged into a symbiosis.
These scientists remind me of guys like Christopher Hitchens, Antlers and Antelope Hunter - total tunnel vision, no imagination to speak of.
Tyrone,
I find the article interesting, but can't say it's sufficient for making any broad proclamations.
One of my problems with modern archaeologist etc. is too many of them are city kids and have never lived in the country. They've never experienced the elements of modern life which most closely reflect those of the people whom they are attempting to study.
Here's an example. We visited some old cliff dwelling here in Colorado. There was a wide shallow water basis carved into the stone that the citified archaeologist couldn't figure out what it was used for, so the declared it was for "ceremonial purposes", but any country boy would know it was just right for watering your chickens.
In the original story, I have to wonder how many of those archaeologist have ever so much as tracked a deer, let alone a wolf.
It will be interesting to see how this hypothesis ages.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Before the horse came along the natives used the dogs as pack animals, pulled travois. The dog didn't care for it much, but the squaws clubbed and kicked them into submission. Uncooperative ones were divided into groups - "breakfast, lunch and dinner".
--- CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE --- A Magic Time To Be An Illegal In America---
Some brown bears on Kodiak have learned to come to the sound of a shot during deer season just in the last few decades. One hunting story I heard had it that a big old boy came in to 40-60 yards, sat down, andd waited for the hunters to finish gutting their deer and leave with the carcass. I suspect some of these animals have picked up the clue after as few as 2 incidents, possibly even one, when natural curiosity is factored in.
Bears in Yellowstone leave the park for gut piles , and the occasional carcass and/or hunter, come elk-hunting season.
I have bird-brained Stellar Jays that tap on my windows, or if that fails, come into my house if the door is open, looking for their peanuts. A neighbor feeds hers (probably mine as well) after dark, or they will be tapping on her bedroom window at 3 am in the summer/fall/spring months. Her bedroom is on the opposite side of the house frm the deck where they are fed. They figured it out....
It is a common story among the Inupiat, and possibly other hunters, that ravens will sometimes "point" animals out to the hunter, having made the connection between hunters and "left-overs".
When my wife goes in to take her shower on Tuesdays, the 10 month old Dachshund immediately comes to me and curls up on my lap. That's the only day he does that, apparently knowing it is the day she works at the food bank, and that she will be gone for most of the day.
It is not a stretch of the imagination to figure that some wild animals whose very lives depend on it, will figure out ways to take advantage of human behavior and act on it. Or that people adopted pups and other baby animals.
Likely both scenarios have taken place many times in the past.
Birds have been trained to hunt for humans, as have cats. Cats in particular most likely took the initiative in co-habitating with mankind. I won't say the little bastids are "domesticated", tho - in fact, the reverse may be true....
It’s hard to consider some of those ankle bitters dogs. But, they’re just inbred for many generations to be small. I guess I’d be pissed too all of the time if that was done to me.
I doubt we will never truly know how dogs came about or how anything really happen as none of us were there. All I know for sure is that in my opinion no other animal can connect with a person quite like a dog. I’ve have witnessed through working with them in hostile environments how truly loyal they can be. A dog will give its own life to protect its owner/master/ handler whatever. I haven’t witnessed that behavior in any other animal. So, I’m inclined to believe that the relationship is deeply rooted in our history of evolution and that it was one of coexistence. Just my warm and fuzzy take.
Give the credit to the Wolves, it's the pack mentality, in Wolves and apparently Dogs to a lesser extent pack is everything and nothing else has a right to exist. To a dog it you're a human in their pack you deserve total loyalty. Too bad that mostly is one sided.
I installed a security camera trained on my front entryway that sends a chime to my cell phone whenever someone approaches my front door. It took my dogs about half a day to corelate my chime with an impending visitor thus sending them into a preemptive barking frenzy before the doorbell even rang.
It’s hard to consider some of those ankle bitters dogs. But, they’re just inbred for many generations to be small. I guess I’d be pissed too all of the time if that was done to me.
I doubt we will never truly know how dogs came about or how anything really happen as none of us were there. All I know for sure is that in my opinion no other animal can connect with a person quite like a dog. I’ve have witnessed through working with them in hostile environments how truly loyal they can be. A dog will give its own life to protect its owner/master/ handler whatever. I haven’t witnessed that behavior in any other animal. So, I’m inclined to believe that the relationship is deeply rooted in our history of evolution and that it was one of coexistence. Just my warm and fuzzy take.
this, best post yet.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
It’s hard to consider some of those ankle bitters dogs. But, they’re just inbred for many generations to be small. I guess I’d be pissed too all of the time if that was done to me.
I doubt we will never truly know how dogs came about or how anything really happen as none of us were there. All I know for sure is that in my opinion no other animal can connect with a person quite like a dog. I’ve have witnessed through working with them in hostile environments how truly loyal they can be. A dog will give its own life to protect its owner/master/ handler whatever. I haven’t witnessed that behavior in any other animal. So, I’m inclined to believe that the relationship is deeply rooted in our history of evolution and that it was one of coexistence. Just my warm and fuzzy take.
I have seen it in a few good horses. The best Cavalry boys would die for their horse, with good cause. I have known several horses which would babysit little kids better than any dog ever could.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
It’s hard to consider some of those ankle bitters dogs. But, they’re just inbred for many generations to be small. I guess I’d be pissed too all of the time if that was done to me.
I doubt we will never truly know how dogs came about or how anything really happen as none of us were there. All I know for sure is that in my opinion no other animal can connect with a person quite like a dog. I’ve have witnessed through working with them in hostile environments how truly loyal they can be. A dog will give its own life to protect its owner/master/ handler whatever. I haven’t witnessed that behavior in any other animal. So, I’m inclined to believe that the relationship is deeply rooted in our history of evolution and that it was one of coexistence. Just my warm and fuzzy take.
I have seen it in a few good horses. The best Cavalry boys would die for their horse, with good cause. I have known several horses which would babysit little kids better than any dog ever could.
It is not a stretch of the imagination to figure that some wild animals whose very lives depend on it, will figure out ways to take advantage of human behavior and act on it.
Yes, there are quite a number of examples of that. One that springs to mind is the killer whales of Eden, New South Wales. For over 100 years there was a pod of killer whales which would co-operate with the local whalers to round up humpbacks and other baleen whales. The killer whales would even come in close to shore and thrash around as a signal to say "there's some out here for you", and then lead the whalers out in their rowboats to get them. In return the whalers would kill the baleen whales and then leave them out for the orcas to eat the tongues before towing the carcases to shore for harvesting the blubber.
Then there is the African Honey Guide bird. It locates bee nests. When it seems humans walking through the bush, it approaches and jabbers at them until they follow it to the nest. After the humans gather up the honey, they leave a batch on a log for the bird.
It would not be a stretch to envision humans keeping captive Honey Guides and letting them out whenever they wanted to find some honey.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
The blacks in Africa say if you don't leave honey for the bird he will lead a mamba to you bed.
NOVIT EMIM DOMINUS QUI SUNT EUIS {Arnauld Amalric} "Kill them all,God will know His." Never trust Horses ,Women and very few Mules.A good rifle will let in lots of AIR AND LIGHT.
Aus indigenous were still in the stoneage till about Late 18th century and had dingo in their camps/communities for how long?
Yet according to TRH theres no chance primitive man would have and support a wolf type that could not provide much of any benefit.
BIRD said they even make lousy pets. So what were the natives thinking for millennia by having them around?
You are making an assumption that wild dingoes are the same dogs that aborigines kept around their camps. The most important part of any dog is the grey matter that lies inside it's skull. A modern example would be the Australian Shepherd, which is now differentiated into two defined types; the working type and the show type. The working type is the original Aussie (actually originating in the Basque Region of Spain), selected for ability as a working herding dog. The show type is a classic example of the hefty middle-aged ladies and Gay men in the AKC ruining a dog by inbreeding them for appearance. They are all "Aussies", just half of 'em are useless.
Another example is the Icelandic Sheepdog; resembles a husky but has working sheepdog brain, acts more like a border collie that a husky, despite outward appearances.
The advice about wild dingoes to to adopt them before six weeks of age and then socialize them "aggressively", do all that and you'll get a PITA dog that has no desire at all to please you by following your commands. One thing of note about dingoes is they can go an extraordinary amount of time without water as compared to a regular dog. Heeler owners proudly point to the infusion of dingo genes into their dog's lineage as making them tougher, there may be truth to this.
Another thing to consider is that, to the best of our knowledge, Aborigines did not use their dogs as hunting companions, at least not the men. There is a paper out that suggests they did assist the women in catching small game while the women were out doing the gathering part of the hunter/gatherer equation. They also famously used them as electric blankets on cold nights and presumably, along with many other contemporary Nations, employed them as the functional equivalent of the hog in the Old World; a converter of waste food into edible meat.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
The world is only 4000, OK, maybe 6000 years old, depending on the interpretation of the calendars.
Everything, I mean EVERYTHING come off that Ark just like it is and is sposed to be.
GEno
What does that have to do with this thread? Nobody with an IQ has believed such fairy tales for 200 years or more.
i'm hoping its satire. geez, my dna markers have been traced to the end of the ice age on the steppes of russia, a lot longer than 4k years ago. on the other hand, they may have been good swimmers, and just missed the boat.
Ron and Indy,
I do believe there are some folks without IQs. Measurable ones at least. Some may even post here at times.
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
Because it was way, way back in the rear of a cave.
The better question is: Why was it wet enough for the tracks to be formed in the first place. Perhaps it was the urinal/lavatory?
Many caves have water in them, sometimes flowing, sometimes just dripping. In the Shoshone Ice Cave north of here, it drips in and freezes, year round.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
It’s hard to consider some of those ankle bitters dogs. But, they’re just inbred for many generations to be small. I guess I’d be pissed too all of the time if that was done to me.
I doubt we will never truly know how dogs came about or how anything really happen as none of us were there. All I know for sure is that in my opinion no other animal can connect with a person quite like a dog. I’ve have witnessed through working with them in hostile environments how truly loyal they can be. A dog will give its own life to protect its owner/master/ handler whatever. I haven’t witnessed that behavior in any other animal. So, I’m inclined to believe that the relationship is deeply rooted in our history of evolution and that it was one of coexistence. Just my warm and fuzzy take.
Yeah, we co-evolved, for sure. We've merged into a symbiosis.
Co-evolved?
So that evolution stuff is real?
In only 4000-6000 years?
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
Wolves make very poor guardians of humans/properties, and poor alarm animals, too.
No chit?
Good thing wolves are natural pointers and retrievers, then!
Look at photos of a wolf, coyote or fox about to pounce on rodent prey, an intent posture not unlike a bird dog on point. I have never heard of a wolf freezing in that position while another pack member gets into position, certainly sounds like something they would do though. Likewise all members of a wolfpack will bring food back to the pups. So is your lab regarding you as a puppy in the field? Hard to say, but what is happening is that a small part of the complete repertoire of wolf behavior has been selectively bred into a compulsion on the part of a certain dog breed.
'Nother example; when I was a teenager in the '70's Old English Sheepdogs were in vogue thanks to some Disney movies. In short order American dog breeders were turning out 70lb non-functional mounds of hair with bad hips.
We had a well-to-do family friend who went right to the source and actually imported one from England. Turns out that dog had a working sheepdog's brain (actual sheep-herding Old English Sheepdogs - who knew?). She gave us Mozart when he was two. One of the two really great dogs I've owned in life. In contrast to the AKC products, Mozart weighed just fifty pounds and was fast and agile. Would chase stuff if commanded, just wouldn't kill it.
We lived in an old house with a porch closed off by a second door, we kept free range chickens and kept a bag of chicken feed in that porch. One day there was a large rat hiding behind that bag. I closed myself and the dog inside the porch, as maybe 6 foot x 5 foot box, pulled the bag away and chaos broke out. The squirrel-sized rat was bouncing off the walls and off of my legs trying to get away. Mozart was highly excited, his nose right on the rat the whole time. Wouldn't bite it.
In England, sheepdogs are bred with a bite-inhibition, that being regarded as a serious fault when herding sheep. Mozart was never taught this, that wasn't necessary, anymore than a good lab has to be taught to go get that thrown object. In the same way my present dog is a Blue Heeler, another herding breed. My Heeler is ALL about going in teethfirst Does it naturally (or would if I let her). Again a small part of the total range of wolf behaviors selectively bred into a near obsession on the part of a dog breed.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
one day a guy was taking a piss and a wolf/dog came over and sniff it, the guy threw him a bone and they were friends ever after.... pretty simple and as good a explanation as any.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
one day a guy was taking a piss and a wolf/dog came over and sniff it, the guy threw him a bone and they were friends ever after.... pretty simple and as good a explanation as any.
Works for me.............
as long as it didn't happen more than 6000 years ago
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
one day a guy was taking a piss and a wolf/dog came over and sniff it, the guy threw him a bone and they were friends ever after.... pretty simple and as good a explanation as any.
Works for me.............
as long as it didn't happen more than 6000 years ago
Geno
i get a kick out of man trying to explain creation or anything before written history..... only man is arrogant enough to think they could know. only god knows.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
You are making an assumption that wild dingoes are the same dogs that aborigines kept around their camps. ...
I simply said Dingo without any distinction between wild or domesticated, and did so for a reason.
Aborigines never really domesticated the native dingo like we have done so with dogs. The dingoes nature wouldnt buy it. But they did develop a relationship that benefited humans to sufficient degree [pros vs cons] that the dingo was considered worth having in the community.
According to AuGeo, dingo proved among other things - An effective hunting aid and effective guard role especially for the women and chidren, which then resulted in benefits for the whole community.
one day a guy was taking a piss and a wolf/dog came over and sniff it, the guy threw him a bone and they were friends ever after.... pretty simple and as good a explanation as any.
Works for me.............
as long as it didn't happen more than 6000 years ago
Geno
i get a kick out of man trying to explain creation or anything before written history..... only man is arrogant enough to think they could know. only god knows.
You my friend might have an IQ.
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
Aborigines never really domesticated the native dingo like we have done so with dogs. The dingoes nature wouldn't buy it.
What constitutes "really domesticated"? Dogs that live in your camp, breed in your camp, follow you around, accompany your women and children, eat at your fire and get used as actual living blankets by you, your women and kids when everybody sleeps at night aren't "really domesticated" because "their nature won't allow it"?
Perhaps you ain't been around dogs much. I'll say it again; the most important part of a dog is the grey stuff between it's ears. Two similar-looking dogs can be night and day.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
What constitutes "really domesticated"? Dogs that live in your camp, breed in your camp,... ... aren't "really domesticated" because "their nature won't allow it"? :eyeroll:
Maybe you should bother to read the AG source link I provided above:
Quote]... "the pups generally returned to the wild once mature (at one or two years of age) to breed. As such, dingoes maintained the dual roles of human companion and top-order predator –"
Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
Perhaps you ain't been around dogs much.. .
Whats your experience with dingo?
Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
You are making an assumption that wild dingoes are the same dogs that aborigines kept around their camps. ...
Whether dingoes were really domesticated in the sense like most regular dogs are, remains debatable.
Hence why earlier I was careful not to distinguish between wild and domesticated.... Simply refering to dingo as having a 'relationship' with natives.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Aborigines never really domesticated the native dingo like we have done so with dogs. The dingoes nature wouldn't buy it.
What constitutes "really domesticated"? Dogs that live in your camp, breed in your camp,... ... aren't "really domesticated" because "their nature won't allow it"? :eyeroll:
Maybe you should bother to read the AG source link I provided above:
Quote]... [/i] "the pups generally returned to the wild once mature (at one or two years of age) to breed. As such, dingoes maintained the dual roles of human companion and top-order predator –"
non of that means chit
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
Because it was way, way back in the rear of a cave.
The better question is: Why was it wet enough for the tracks to be formed in the first place. Perhaps it was the urinal/lavatory?
Many caves have water in them, sometimes flowing, sometimes just dripping. In the Shoshone Ice Cave north of here, it drips in and freezes, year round.
RC, the point is, how could the cave be wet enough for tracks to form in the wet clay, but remain dry enough to preserve those tracks for 26 millenia?
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
Because it was way, way back in the rear of a cave.
The better question is: Why was it wet enough for the tracks to be formed in the first place. Perhaps it was the urinal/lavatory?
Many caves have water in them, sometimes flowing, sometimes just dripping. In the Shoshone Ice Cave north of here, it drips in and freezes, year round.
RC, the point is, how could the cave be wet enough for tracks to form in the wet clay, but remain dry enough to preserve those tracks for 26 millenia?
Wolves which all dogs come from domesticated themselves. They were smarter than most of the cavemen on this forum.
It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.
Imagine the 1st guy that patted one that finally came in from outta the dark around a campfire 10,s of 1000,s yrs ago for a piece of meat out of his hand.
Imagine the wolf/dog overcoming its instinct to do that.
Or stuff along those lines.....
Instead of being competitors Both started working together. Strengths of each multiplied by working together.
Deal was sealed ..... 2 species that evolved together.
I prefer to believe that, others are free to believe as they choose. But then, I am a dog person (meaning I like dogs and greatly enjoy their company over most humans, not that I am some half dog, half human mutant...)
Actually I didn’t even see that link, maybe on account of it was pasted at the bottom.
Fascinating, a halfway sort of domestication, turning themselves loose upon maturity. Only thing I would take issue with is your assertion that the dingo’s nature didn’t permit. I would argue no-one was selecting for a prolonged juvenile personality.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
It’s hard to consider some of those ankle bitters dogs. But, they’re just inbred for many generations to be small. I guess I’d be pissed too all of the time if that was done to me.
I doubt we will never truly know how dogs came about or how anything really happen as none of us were there. All I know for sure is that in my opinion no other animal can connect with a person quite like a dog. I’ve have witnessed through working with them in hostile environments how truly loyal they can be. A dog will give its own life to protect its owner/master/ handler whatever. I haven’t witnessed that behavior in any other animal. So, I’m inclined to believe that the relationship is deeply rooted in our history of evolution and that it was one of coexistence. Just my warm and fuzzy take.
I have seen it in a few good horses. The best Cavalry boys would die for their horse, with good cause. I have known several horses which would babysit little kids better than any dog ever could.
Seems like the worst of conditions brings out the best in us all. If someone or something had ever harmed one of my working dogs there would have been hell to pay. I always disliked it when our kennel master told us not to get attached to our dogs because they’re just a tool. What a bunch of crap. We depended on each other to get back in one piece. How do you not get attached.
memtb
