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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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During the last decade or two we have seen the 45 gap, 357 sig, 5.7 x 28, 40SW, 10mm which have enjoyed limited popularity with some of them dying off (who has a 45gap these days?). Granted the 10mm still hangs on in the niche area of animal defense and hunting, the others have all either never gained significant popularity, or have lost significant popularity, everybody seems to go back to the 380, 38 special/357 mag, 9mm and 45ACP for CCW? Why do so many new handgun calibers fail to catch on?
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,900 |
The 45 Gap was an answer to a question never asked. The 357 Sig, 40 S&W and the 10mm do nothing dramatically better than established rounds.
The 357 Sig is a higher velocity 9mm that offis improved ballistics, but more expensive to feed and marginally more effective
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2003
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The 445 GAP was intended for countries that won't allow citizens to own military cartridge chambered firearms. The 40 S&W and 357 SIG were aimed at law enforcement. Both have a snappy recoil that many folks don't like. IMHO the 357 SIG could be more popular if the chamber was cut to head space on the shoulder.
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,900 |
"The .45 GAP (Glock Auto Pistol) or .45 Glock (11.43×19mm) pistol cartridge was designed by Ernest Durham, an engineer with CCI/Speer, at the request of firearms manufacturer Glock to provide a cartridge that would equal the power of the .45 ACP, have a stronger case head to reduce the possibility of case neck blowouts, and be shorter to fit in a more compact handgun. GAP is an acronym for "Glock Automatic Pistol", and the .45 GAP is the first commercially introduced cartridge identified with Glock." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_GAP
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,192
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
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There is no new cartridge that has come out, or can reasonably be conceived, that is better for the purposes that handguns are normally used than what is already available.
Firearms are a mature technology. Improvements are only possible around the edges. Dramatic improvements are simply not possible until somebody invents a phazer, just like on Star Trek.
Firearms do not wear out under decades of normal use. A gun made 100 years ago is still useful, in many cases just as useful as one made yesterday. Gunmakers keep bringing out new rifle and handgun cartridges because they need to sell new guns to stay in business. However, none of the new ones can really justify their existence based on usefulness. An older cartridge, if it was tweaked properly, could do the same job.
So nearly every new cartridge is, ultimately, a failure in the commercial market. The 6.5 Creedmor is an exception, but there are several much older 6.5 and 7mm cartridges that could do the very same job if loaded similarly in an appropriately twisted rifle.
The old stuff does the job, so in order to sell more guns, the new stuff has to be sexier and more stylish. Most of the time, it flops.
Last edited by wildhobbybobby; 01/25/20.
Life is like a purple antelope on a field of tuna fish...
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,556
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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I think .41 Action Express had a great deal of potential, but didn't make it. It had a rebated rim matching the 9mm Parabellum, but was otherwise similar to today's .40 S&W. As a result, a simple conversion of a 9mm handgun could be done with a simple barrel swap. I did this to a TZ-75 I had back in the late 1980s, but apparently the barrel wasn't a perfect match for my gun, because I had reliability issues with it. A gunsmith could likely have remedied it, but I just gave up on it, having lost confidence in the idea.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,556
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,556 |
The 357 Sig is a higher velocity 9mm that offis improved ballistics, but more expensive to feed and marginally more effective And Cor-Bon was getting similar velocity increases from standard 9mm already. ![[Linked Image from 1696252748.rsc.cdn77.org]](https://1696252748.rsc.cdn77.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/IMG_8851.JPG)
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,556
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,556 |
There is no new cartridge that has come out, or can reasonably be conceived, that is better for the purposes that handguns are normally used that is better than what is already available.
Firearms are a mature technology. Improvements are only possible around the edges. Dramatic improvements are simply not possible until somebody invents a phazer, just like on Star Trek.
Firearms do not wear out under decades of normal use. A gun made 100 years ago is still useful, in many cases just as useful as one made yesterday. Gunmakers keep bringing out new rifle and handgun cartridges because they need to sell new guns to stay in business. However, none of the new ones can really justify their existence based on usefulness. An older cartridge, if it was tweaked properly, could do the same job.
So nearly every new cartridge is, ultimately, a failure in the commercial market. The 6.5 Creedmor is an exception, but there are several much older 6.5 and 7mm cartridges that could do the very same job if loaded similarly in an appropriately twisted rifle.
The old stuff does the job, so in order to sell more guns, the new stuff has to be sexier and more stylish. Most of the time, it flops. There is a lot to what you say, I think.
![[Linked Image from images7.memedroid.com]](https://images7.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED555/651dcaab819c9.jpeg)
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 732
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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The 357 Sig is a higher velocity 9mm that offis improved ballistics, but more expensive to feed and marginally more effective I just posted about buying a P229 .357 Sig, and while I was pondering hitting the checkout button on CDNN...I decided to price some ammo to make sure I wasn’t about to goof. I was pleasantly surprised to find .357 Sig ammo cheaper than comparable 9mm. In this case, my go to defense load of Speer Gold Dots. 125gr JHP is $.94/rd vs $1.15 for 124gr 9mm. However, 9mm FMJ rounds are still about 1/2 the cost. This gun will not replace my Glock 9mms in their intended roles, but should be a nice center console companion when out on the farm.
-JW
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Joined: May 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Not sure I agree on the 10mm. It significantly outperforms the .45acp and the 9mm when properly loaded. It did fall by the wayside for a while, but there are a lot more models currently offered, and it's easier now to find factory loads on the shelf. The odd thing is that most of those loads I'm seeing locally are still 10mm Lite.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,900 |
Not sure I agree on the 10mm. It significantly outperforms the .45acp and the 9mm when properly loaded. It did fall by the wayside for a while, but there are a lot more models currently offered, and it's easier now to find factory loads on the shelf. The odd thing is that most of those loads I'm seeing locally are still 10mm Lite. I didn't find the 10mm to significantly out perform 45ACP +P.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,136
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2015
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cartridges are ordinaly ranked in sales/quantity produced. Cartridges like 380, 9mm, 38sp, 357, 45 acp have been around for a long time and have millions of guns ahead of the 5.7, 40, 10mm. The legacy cartridges are pretty much standards not only in industry but how people compare cartridges in general. Look at the 40, at one point you might have thought the 40 became the new standard but it didn’t, it only became very popular. The 40 was still being compared to an older standard, the 9mm that still outsold it. Nevertheless, popularity is ordinal as well... the top three big defensive auto cartridges are 9mm, 45acp, and 40 S&W. How is the 40 not popular? What major auto cartridge is overtaking it? None, it still ranks in the top 3 major auto pistol cartridges albeit its sales has substantially dropped.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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The 9MM Federal, 41AE and 45 Gap are about the only three I can think of, in the last 30 years,that completely missed the market they were intended for.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 202
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 202 |
The reason they keep coming up with new rounds is to get us to buy more guns. I fell for it once. 17HMR if the 40 gr. 22WMR won't do it the 45 gr. 22-250 will.
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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During the last decade or two we have seen the 45 gap, 357 sig, 5.7 x 28, 40SW, 10mm... All of which offer advantages over their predecessors. They don't make it because handgun owners are stodgy old cusses that are resistant to change. In what other area does "new" apply to 40-year old products (Glock)?
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,556
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,556 |
Not sure I agree on the 10mm. It significantly outperforms the .45acp and the 9mm when properly loaded. It did fall by the wayside for a while, but there are a lot more models currently offered, and it's easier now to find factory loads on the shelf. The odd thing is that most of those loads I'm seeing locally are still 10mm Lite. I didn't find the 10mm to significantly out perform 45ACP +P. ![[Linked Image from cdn-secure.luckygunner.com]](https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/420x420/ff822fa3c3f066cced9a339fe83ea5f2/a/d/ad039b8f8807f2cea90023d2937e2ef5_6.jpg)
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,248
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,248 |
Not sure I agree on the 10mm. It significantly outperforms the .45acp and the 9mm when properly loaded. It did fall by the wayside for a while, but there are a lot more models currently offered, and it's easier now to find factory loads on the shelf. The odd thing is that most of those loads I'm seeing locally are still 10mm Lite. I didn't find the 10mm to significantly out perform 45ACP +P. Meh... https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...eted-hollow-point?variant=18785725153337
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,248
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,248 |
Not sure I agree on the 10mm. It significantly outperforms the .45acp and the 9mm when properly loaded. It did fall by the wayside for a while, but there are a lot more models currently offered, and it's easier now to find factory loads on the shelf. The odd thing is that most of those loads I'm seeing locally are still 10mm Lite. I didn't find the 10mm to significantly out perform 45ACP +P. Well, that's good news, and I will defer to your infinitely wider experience in applying bullets to flesh than I. But on paper, the evidence points to 200-300 fps advantage to the 10mm. It's enough to give pause to us who are less experienced.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,999
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I think that is gun nuts are a fickle bunch. When a new cartridge comes out we have to try it. Some make it and some are found to be just a rehash if something we already have. The 10mm started out big and then faded but now it is chambered one more guns than ever. It is my favorite round and I have found it to out perform the .45 ACP +P significantly especially hunting. If you want a powerful .45 the .460 Rowland fits the bill but it is a much cartridge. The .327 Federal is getting more popular. The .480 Ruger is another one that fills a need for hunting. With it and the 10mm I believe I could hunt anywhere in the world.
Guns don't kill people, it's mostly the bullets
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Not sure I agree on the 10mm. It significantly outperforms the .45acp and the 9mm when properly loaded. It did fall by the wayside for a while, but there are a lot more models currently offered, and it's easier now to find factory loads on the shelf. The odd thing is that most of those loads I'm seeing locally are still 10mm Lite. I didn't find the 10mm to significantly out perform 45ACP +P. Meh... https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...eted-hollow-point?variant=18785725153337 I'm not talking about paper ballistics, I'm talking about depth of penetration and wound chanel size. The 45 Super clearly has the upper hand in actual field use from my experience
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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