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Kobe Bryant’s helicopter was flying dangerously low before fatal crash By Emily SmithJanuary 27, 2020 | 12:38am Video shows aftermath of the Kobe Bryant helicopter crash
The pilot of Kobe Bryant’s helicopter was warned he was flying dangerously low before he crashed into a California mountainside at around 185mph, killing all aboard.
Flight tower audio reveals that the pilot of Kobe’s helicopter — tail number N72EX, was told, “Two echo x-ray you are still too low for flight following at this time……(then ATC talks to another aircraft)….two echo x-ray SoCal?”
Flight Following is a service air traffic control gives to aircraft to provide improved situational awareness and avoid collisions with other aircraft. SoCal handles the low altitude traffic in Southern California.
Aviation sources said the LA weather was extremely foggy on Sunday morning and most helicopter traffic was grounded. The pilot of Kobe’s chopper planned to land at Burbank Airport but had been circling the area for around 15 minutes waiting for clearance to land because of the bad weather conditions and other aircraft on flight plans landing at the airport.
Shortly before the crash, the pilot climbed the helicopter to 2000 feet then flew into a mountain at 1700 feet. Flight data showed they were traveling at 161 knots (185mph).
A second aviation source said Bryant’s chopper had twin engines, so they would not have crashed if they had lost one engine. The source said, “All the signs point to a CFIT [controlled flight into terrain] which is when an aircraft under the complete control of a pilot is inadvertently flown into the land, sea, or a building. These accidents happen when the pilot loses situational awareness. The crash site also points to this, given how the debris is scattered, it looks like they went nose-first into the mountain.”
The source added, “Kobe’s helicopter is 29 years old, and most Sikorsky S-76s fly with two pilots. On Sunday, Kobe had just one pilot, who was likely flying on visual flight rules, rather than using instruments to monitor altitude.”
apparently that helo was rated for 0/0 height/vis and I assume the pilot had a "Special Instrument Card" allowing him to take off in 0/0. Other than extreme operational requirements (as in we are in a war and men are dying so you need to launch), there is absolutely ZERO NEED to take off in those conditions.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I worked many car wrecks when I was a paramedic. I have pulled many, many dead people out of cars. Not pretty.
But I worked one airplane crash. A twin engine Beech flew into the ground in a thunderstorm, at 225 mph. A man was the pilot, two females aboard, and one little boy. The biggest piece of body was about the size of a football, but smashed flat. We ran by Home Depot and got a roll of heavy duty black plastic garbage bags. At the crash scene, we labelled one bag "MAN," we labelled one bag "BOY," we labelled on "WOMAN #1" and the last, "WOMAN #2." Then we spent six hours picking up pieces. Sometimes we had to guess which bag the piece went in to.
When I first heard of what happened on FNC and saw the weather my first thought was CFIT. Watched a short video clip with audio from the radar room and it pretty much confirmed that.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
I worked many car wrecks when I was a paramedic. I have pulled many, many dead people out of cars. Not pretty.
But I worked one airplane crash. A twin engine Beech flew into the ground in a thunderstorm, at 225 mph. A man was the pilot, two females aboard, and one little boy. The biggest piece of body was about the size of a football, but smashed flat. We ran by Home Depot and got a roll of heavy duty black plastic garbage bags. At the crash scene, we labelled one bag "MAN," we labelled one bag "BOY," we labelled on "WOMAN #1" and the last, "WOMAN #2." Then we spent six hours picking up pieces. Sometimes we had to guess which bag the piece went in to.
That's a terrible day!
if a man speaks, and there isn't a woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?
Lot of speculation here... even if it was CFIT they might have clipped terrain or power lines before crashing. Could have been instant, could have been much worse.
Either way flying SVFR in mountainous terrain is stupid.
Lot of speculation here... even if it was CFIT they might have clipped terrain or power lines before crashing. Could have been instant, could have been much worse.
Either way flying SVFR in mountainous terrain is stupid.
Yep - I'm VFR or I'm IFR, the middle ground is where bad stuff happens.
Note: Just because he was too low for flight following doesn't make it especially dangerous. There are lots of places out there without low coverage.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
It all boils down to why a chopper was flying in that kind of weather- - - - - -"Rules don't apply to rich folks!" I doubt if anyone on that bird qualified as "Joe Sixpack", and the upper crust have a way of believing they're immortal, whether if applies to flying, driving exotic cars, or indulging in drugs and other risky lifestyle choices. Too bad he's gone, but a little common sense about how to get to that airport might have saved a lot of lives. Jerry
SO because I don't know, but this was a helicopter so instead of circling for 15 minutes why couldn't they hover in place for 15 minutes, until conditions cleared enough to land safely?
Laws aren't preventative measures. In other words, more laws won't prevent gun crime from happening.
Hover in fog? I don't think so. Unless there's an autopilot hover mode coupled to a GPS, you have to be able to see the ground to hover.
If my helo knowledge is out of date, somebody please correct me.
I understand most IFR rated Helos have autopilots that can hover. Another pilot board was saying that it's very common to have commercial helo pilots with IFR ratings but they don't maintain the currency in the rating and the outcome often looks like this and the mishap in NYC last year but I'm not a helo guy.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
Many pilots here die because someone "has to" go somewhere. It is commonly referred to as "dying to get somewhere." I have lost friends because of it...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
The live leak video showed the bird spinning before impact - that is because the tail rotor is missing. What few pictures there were, the tail rotor mast was separated from the main wreckage by quite some distance, which indicates that it separated from the helicopter in flight.
Non pilot, but the second I heard about it being a helicopter crash I wondered about fog. Made me think o the Stevie Ray Vaughn crash leaving Alpine Valley in a copter after a concert in the fog.
Also have to wonder if the pilot knew better but because there were so many people and kids present for a helicopter ride that he went against his better judgement and took off anyway.
"Put none but Americans on guard tonight." -George Washington
The live leak video showed the bird spinning before impact - that is because the tail rotor is missing. What few pictures there were, the tail rotor mast was separated from the main wreckage by quite some distance, which indicates that it separated from the helicopter in flight.
Can you post a link to the live leak?
Pretty foggy, someone actually has video, good enough to discern a missing tail rotor?
The live leak video showed the bird spinning before impact - that is because the tail rotor is missing. What few pictures there were, the tail rotor mast was separated from the main wreckage by quite some distance, which indicates that it separated from the helicopter in flight.
Can you post a link to the live leak?
Pretty foggy, someone actually has video, good enough to discern a missing tail rotor?
I already posted it. Turns out it was a vid of a crash in the Middle East that someone deliberately mislabeled.
I will never fly in a chopper again, ever. Fighting forest fires up here in the mountains I have been on some terrifying rides including one time landing in the dark, that was the last time. My friend a heli logger pilot used to laugh at me when I would relate my fear of flying in a chopper, then something mechanical happened to his chopper and now he is dead too.
I do not have a link to the liveleak, if it was mislabeled, my apologies. It still does not account for the tail rotor mast to be separated from the main wreckage. That was the biggest thing that caught my attention and several things can account for that - metal fatigue, wire strike, and even a main rotor blade separation. I lost an HH-53 and 7 crewmembers when a main blade separated from the rotor and the tail boom was torn off by the ensuing vibration (in building the time line, we figured that the tail separated about 15 seconds after the main rotor separated). The only thing is that the NTSB will be on it and will figure it out. That is the only way we will know.
The live leak video showed the bird spinning before impact - that is because the tail rotor is missing. What few pictures there were, the tail rotor mast was separated from the main wreckage by quite some distance, which indicates that it separated from the helicopter in flight.
That video has been labeled as false footage by other internet resources. That parts of the chopper were largely separated from the main crash site does not in and of itself mean they separated in flight.
For what it's worth, CFIT is not an instantaneous departure from life. Clouds and fog are one and the same, the crew will see terrain before they impact, and react to it. Passengers may or may not see what is happening, but they will be aware of the pilot's attempt at corrective action and experience initial impact and likely the resulting gyrations. Not saying it isn't quick, but they are aware of their looming departure.
How would I know? Because I've background in aircraft accident investigations and with specificity, this type of accident. Got to pick thru the pieces of the puzzle for one of my roommates in '71 among others. Their flight path prior to final impact was typical and reflects that a) they saw the mountain at the last moment and b) tried to climb without success. The impact trail thru the trees reflected about 100' of climb before the main rotor was demolished and led to a smoking hole in the mountain side.
Question was asked earlier as to why the pilot didn't hover for a bit rather than continue flying? Fair question on one part, but in general terms hovering out of ground effect (close to ground) is not a brilliant strategy for choppers. OTOH, flying at greatly reduced speed, say 20-25 knots is viable and an approach we used in the mountains of Nam many times....successfully. Tree top to tree top in the fog works. It works better here in the USA because nobody it likely to be shooting at you while doing such silly things.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
I do not have a link to the liveleak, if it was mislabeled, my apologies. It still does not account for the tail rotor mast to be separated from the main wreckage. That was the biggest thing that caught my attention and several things can account for that - metal fatigue, wire strike, and even a main rotor blade separation. I lost an HH-53 and 7 crewmembers when a main blade separated from the rotor and the tail boom was torn off by the ensuing vibration (in building the time line, we figured that the tail separated about 15 seconds after the main rotor separated). The only thing is that the NTSB will be on it and will figure it out. That is the only way we will know.
I was under the impression that the pilot was flying by sight in zero viz conditions and flew into a mountain at 185 mph.
apparently that helo was rated for 0/0 height/vis and I assume the pilot had a "Special Instrument Card" allowing him to take off in 0/0. Other than extreme operational requirements (as in we are in a war and men are dying so you need to launch), there is absolutely ZERO NEED to take off in those conditions.
Apparently the LA County Sheriff’s helicopters were all grounded at the time of the crash because of weather conditions.
OK you pilots out there. Who among you would fly at your top speed in near zero visibility in a copter rated at 178 mph? And at 2400'? https://www.google.com/search?q=sik...548j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 There were two reported eyewitnesses at a Presbyterian church across the canyon from the crash site. Neither reported high speed. One witness heard the copter and thought it was struggling. Where does this bullshit come from?
Fight fire, save lives, laugh in the face of danger.
From my background, I was pointing out things that need to be looked at. It appears that the helicopter hit relatively vertical, as the main wreckage appeared to be somewhat contained. There did appear to be some minor wreckage scattering along the hillside, and the tail rotor appeared to be separated from the main wreckage. There are a lot of possibilities, and, not being part of the investigative crew, I cannot say for sure. There was another helicopter flying in the area taking pictures for the news while the first responders were on the scene.
apparently that helo was rated for 0/0 height/vis and I assume the pilot had a "Special Instrument Card" allowing him to take off in 0/0. Other than extreme operational requirements (as in we are in a war and men are dying so you need to launch), there is absolutely ZERO NEED to take off in those conditions.
Apparently the LA County Sheriff’s helicopters were all grounded at the time of the crash because of weather conditions.
We had an air squad temporarily (1 year) assigned to us in the east end of L.A. County. We used to give the pilots crap when the news copters were up and they were not flying, preferring to wait up to a couple hours for visibility. It didn't happen often but I thought their perspective was interesting compared to what they would do during brush fires and night rescues with NVG.
Fight fire, save lives, laugh in the face of danger.
helicopters should never be flown in poor visibility (night) I don't think the military recommends it.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. (we really need a sarcasm font) but military aviation is really good at analyzing risk/benefit and we flew in some pretty dreadful conditions when we had to. It's hard to see that a flight to a charity ball game is mission critical though. It will be a high profile NTSB investigation and those guys do a very good job in breaking it all down. Who, what, where and why to the extent that they can.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
Yeah, the youtube flight videos are all hoaxes. The two witnesses from the church couldn't even tell what color the chopper was from the pea soup it was flying in.
helicopters should never be flown in poor visibility (night) I don't think the military recommends it.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. (we really need a sarcasm font) but military aviation is really good at analyzing risk/benefit and we flew in some pretty dreadful conditions when we had to. It's hard to see that a flight to a charity ball game is mission critical though. It will be a high profile NTSB investigation and those guys do a very good job in breaking it all down. Who, what, where and why to the extent that they can.
The military is trained for that kind of flying and they still have trouble.. remember when they took out Osama. they lost a helicopter..
Kobe + daughter, Coach + wife and daughter as reported the 5 deaths on the copter. Where is the pilot? I have heard nothing about the identity of the pilot. Was Kobe the pilot?
helicopters should never be flown in poor visibility (night) I don't think the military recommends it.
That right there is some funny stuff. Why on earth would I have an instrument (1969) and CFII rating in choppers that dates back to 1970? Why would my flight log books have so much night flight time logged? One of my primary missions in '72 was Night Hawk with B/229th AHC and that's all I did for about 3 months. How can that be?
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
helicopters should never be flown in poor visibility (night) I don't think the military recommends it.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. (we really need a sarcasm font) but military aviation is really good at analyzing risk/benefit and we flew in some pretty dreadful conditions when we had to. It's hard to see that a flight to a charity ball game is mission critical though. It will be a high profile NTSB investigation and those guys do a very good job in breaking it all down. Who, what, where and why to the extent that they can.
I flew most of my operational career at altitudes from 200'AGL (day) to 400 (night) at similar speeds (maneuver flaps) and tight, fast turns chasing subs and mostly at night with nary a horizon or moonlight. The helos worked lower. Over land, about 200' and 400 kts, but ALWAYS VFR. Then again that was operationally required and not because going to a ball game. The old adage still holds for me; "I'd much rather be down here wishing I was up there, than up there wishing I was down here."
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
As Pugs said, in the military you do things that have to be done. Period. I took off in a combat emergency once during the Vietnamese monsoon. The field was closed being below IFR minimums, so I took off VFR in that little bug smasher over there under my name. Once off the runway, there was no way to come back and land. I went. I found my team that was in a fire fight. I got shot at, but I got the team out. Oh, and the two Vietnamese helicopter crews launched in those same conditions. All of us eventually found the field again and landed. Illegally.
In civilian life? no flipping way would I even THINK about doing that.
Yep - I'm VFR or I'm IFR, the middle ground is where bad stuff happens.
Note: Just because he was too low for flight following doesn't make it especially dangerous. There are lots of places out there without low coverage.
Yes indeed. "Too low for flight-following" just means you're below the lower limits of the radar tower ATC is using in that area, it doesn't mean you're below the MEA (minumum safe altitude). However: if the pilot was trying to use flight following, that means he was running VFR, and it sounds pretty clearly like the conditions were well below VFR minimums. So it would appear he did not have an IFR clearance and flight plan.
This is how a lot of IMC CFITs happen... the pilot looks at the forecast or the local weather and says to himself, "Yeah, it's pretty bad, but it looks like it'll clear up soon, so I'll just go VFR rather than go through the hassle of filing IFR for this short hop." Everything looks good until you get into the soup.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Witness. This is why there will be no vid, too much fog to see anything.
That guy is a great witness.
Absolutely he was!!
Articulate
Not the usual purple haired transvestite negro talking about droppin his Hot Pocket and chit.
Boomers are like that............articulate and all........................most of us even understand the word.
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
chit happens, we ran a boat aground in the fog last week.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
Why on earth would I have an instrument (1969) and CFII rating in choppers that dates back to 1970? Why would my flight log books have so much night flight time logged? One of my primary missions in '72 was Night Hawk with B/229th AHC and that's all I did for about 3 months. How can that be?
Let's see here. Flying at 185 mph, low altitude in dense fog.
I dont know the source for that 185 mph claim, but that guy interviewed said the bird was more/less hovering or hunting around just above him in cloud. [ATC had them waiting, so they were circling]
Thus i cannot realistically imagine the pilot then Radically gunning the bird up to 185 mph - even exceeding VNE and crashing just short distance away from the witnesses location.
I can tell you one thing for certain, - you will know when an S76/twin PT6 is passing low at top speed in your near vacinity.... And that is not what the witness described.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Basically he was scud running.He was at 1500ft and the ceiling as reported by ATC was 1100ft overcast so he definitely was flying into decaying conditions
As deputy sheriff in Texas, I helped pick up small pieces of body at a small aircraft crash. I overheard one of the airport personnel refer to it as "the ground compromised their flight path."
Inadvertent IMC. Climb and contact ATC. Someone forgot the rules.
kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
Listening to the radio traffic, back and forth, the first thing that got my attention was when the pilot said he was at 1400 feet and the controller said the ceiling was 1100, yet the pilot said he was VFR. He was told to maintain Special VFR, rogered he understood, but evidently he flew into the clouds at some point and lost sight of the ground. Being in mountainous terrain, that would have caused his sphincter muscle to contract, cutting off all oxygen to his ass. Since he was flying by the seat of his pants, he ran out of air and flew into the side of one of the cloud enshrouded/hidden mountains. Case closed.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
Saw an interview on Fox this eve where the fella being interviewed claimed Bryant was the smartest basketball player ever. That speaks poorly of Bryant's peers, mostly because it seems likely he could have hired a more competent pilot if he really was smart. I'm doubtful.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
Saw an interview on Fox this eve where the fella being interviewed claimed Bryant was the smartest basketball player ever. That speaks poorly of Bryant's peers, mostly because it seems likely he could have hired a more competent pilot if he really was smart. I'm doubtful.
I imagine that pilot was competent. I read he had maintained an ATP since 2008. I also imagine that multi-millionaire, world famous Kobe Bryant must have made him an offer (to fly him and his party to the Mamba basketball tournament that Kobe was sponsoring and hosting) that he couldn't refuse. I imagine the pilot made a "business decision" that went bad. My neighbor, back in the late 1970s, was an on call biz jet pilot. He was sick of the work, but it paid the rent. The stories he told me, (of the demands of his rich and powerful clients) would curl your toes.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
Saw an interview on Fox this eve where the fella being interviewed claimed Bryant was the smartest basketball player ever. That speaks poorly of Bryant's peers, mostly because it seems likely he could have hired a more competent pilot if he really was smart. I'm doubtful.
Reportedly had extremely high ACT scores, spoke three languages. Not the intellectual profile of your typical basketball player.
Saw an interview on Fox this eve where the fella being interviewed claimed Bryant was the smartest basketball player ever. That speaks poorly of Bryant's peers, mostly because it seems likely he could have hired a more competent pilot if he really was smart. I'm doubtful.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
I heard a report the day it happened that said witnesses had seen it spiraling out of control before it hit the mountain, as if there was a tail rotor problem.
One shot, one kill........ It saves a lot of ammo!
I heard a report the day it happened that said witnesses had seen it spiraling out of control before it hit the mountain, as if there was a tail rotor problem.
I made a post regarding that. It was reported to me, and some friends sent a video that their employee reportedly sent them just after it happened (he was very close by working on a roof in Calabasas that day), and claimed to our friends (owners of the company) that he just took the video of the crash, and was leaving to meet up with the police.
Seemed legit, but after I watched the video a couple times, the though cropped in my head "why is a girl up on the roof with them screaming"? Then looking closer, terrain looked somewhat plausible knowing the area and accounting for possible camera zoom distortion of terrain, but it did not match the scene as being shown on the news. And....lack of fog that was heavy that morning in the video. Couldn't see great detail on the phone, but once I saw it online, it was easier to tell it was bullchit.
Turns out it was the same video posted to Live Leak, which was posted to youtube over a year ago.
No response from friend today as to WTF that was all about.
Apologies for bad info. These folks are not the type to play sick jokes, but without explanation, not sure what to think. Have known them for over 20 years, and had no reason to think it would be anything other than what they claimed. Very strange.
Guns are responsible for killing as much as Rosie O'Donnel's fork is responsible for her being FAT.
I imagine the pilot made a "business decision" that went bad. .
Reckon you're right about that. By my definition a pilot that makes "business decisions" ain't competent. A pilot's job is to complete the mission....every time. Nothing more or less. If the "tees" can't be crossed and the "eyes" dotted, it's a good day to head to the bar.
Had the pleasure (?) of telling a 1 star general "F-U....sir." one day out in the A Shau in response to his order to resume a mission wherein he had violated communication protocols 3 times, thus endangering me and the crew. He broke out of the mission pack and went home. Never heard another word about it because I was justified, if not polite. Also had a couple of occasions to cancel flights in the corporate world that frustrated the boss a fair bit. He's still alive today to bitch about it.
The term(s) "Pilot In Command" (PIC) and/or "Aircraft Commander" (AC) mean just that. If you wear them, act like it. You're God, the whole deal rests on your shoulders. If one insists upon telling the PIC what to do and he/she accepts that in circumstances where flight safety is on the table, you're both stupid.
Pilot rap.......
I got your RMI and your ILS We fly in the sky, nekkid or dressed Wherever you want, all day long Until you scare me, then suck my schlong
Dan Commercial Rotorcraft, single rotor, CFI, CFII Airplane SEL, ATP MEL, CFI, CFII
PS: I'm a better pilot than poet.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
By my definition a pilot that makes "business decisions" ain't competent. . . If one insists upon telling the PIC what to do and he/she accepts that in circumstances where flight safety is on the table, you're both stupid.
Can't disagree with your sentiment. There's two types of competency . . . . "stick" competency and "headwork" competency. Seems the mishap pilot was a CFI and ATP so he had the stick part down. Seems he failed the headwork part, by succumbing to "an offer he couldn't refuse."
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
I imagine the pilot made a "business decision" that went bad. .
Reckon you're right about that. By my definition a pilot that makes "business decisions" ain't competent. A pilot's job is to complete the mission....every time. Nothing more or less. If the "tees" can't be crossed and the "eyes" dotted, it's a good day to head to the bar.
Had the pleasure (?) of telling a 1 star general "F-U....sir." one day out in the A Shau in response to his order to resume a mission wherein he had violated communication protocols 3 times, thus endangering me and the crew. He broke out of the mission pack and went home. Never heard another word about it because I was justified, if not polite. Also had a couple of occasions to cancel flights in the corporate world that frustrated the boss a fair bit. He's still alive today to bitch about it.
The term(s) "Pilot In Command" (PIC) and/or "Aircraft Commander" (AC) mean just that. If you wear them, act like it. You're God, the whole deal rests on your shoulders. If one insists upon telling the PIC what to do and he/she accepts that in circumstances where flight safety is on the table, you're both stupid.
Pilot rap.......
I got your RMI and your ILS We fly in the sky, nekkid or dressed Wherever you want, all day long Until you scare me, then suck my schlong
Dan Commercial Rotorcraft, single rotor, CFI, CFII Airplane SEL, ATP MEL, CFI, CFII
PS: I'm a better pilot than poet.
Exactly right...
My AC was always the rank of a captain. Our airborne battle staff commanders were always a colonel (captain if he was navy). While the commander always expressed his wishes to me if we diverted or were working out of an AOB I followed my AC's lead.
By my definition a pilot that makes "business decisions" ain't competent. . . If one insists upon telling the PIC what to do and he/she accepts that in circumstances where flight safety is on the table, you're both stupid.
Can't disagree with your sentiment. There's two types of comentency . . . . "stick" competency and "headwork" competency. Seems the mishap pilot was a CFI and ATP so he had the stick part down. Seems he failed the headwork part, by succumbing to "an offer he couldn't refuse."
That's pretty much what my brother said. He has 22K+ hours and is a retired Delta captain. He started as an Army WO with 7000 rotary hours. He liked flying for the airlines and the military because they had rules. The few short periods when he flew corporate because of furloughs he hated. Important people think they know everything and if you don't have a backbone to stand up to them, they can get you killed.
One of those "business decisions" took the lives of Richie Valens, "The big Bopper" and Buddy Holley. That crash was the inspiration for the song "American Pie". I believe Patsy Cline was another victim of flying when they should have been riding on the ground. Jerry
My first assumption in looking at the pics and videos of the wreckage and the scattered debris field, is that this was not a low speed impact. The witnesses on the ground that I saw on TV did not see the chopper (due to heavy fog) but only heard the chopper.
Hopefully no one on board realized what was going on before impact, therefore eliminating a few short seconds of pure horror and an instantaneous no pain death upon impact.
You can't fully believe the news reports in a situation like this. The investigators will get to the bottom of the root cause of the crash. However, based on the video of the eyewitness who claimed the helicopter sounded like he was flying low and slow in the clouds, I could envision the pilot trying to gently descend and see if he could break out and land somewhere. He would have a radar altimeter that would tell him his altitude above the ground. However, he would also know he was flying in the vicinity of alot of tall hills or mountains. This is an emergency situation. Perhaps there will be some recorded radio communications that will shed light on the situation. A pilot is taught to fly the aircraft first, and talk second, so he may not have said anything he was so busy concentrating on flying the aircraft. Unless the helicopter was equipped with an automatic flight/hover control, this would be extremely difficult to accomplish. It could be vertigo inducing. I could envision the pilot then making the decision to climb and gain airspeed to break out on top of the layer, assuming there was a layer, and if radar showed him at 2400 feet, and an airspeed of 160 kts, he may have eventually succumbed to vertigo and lost control of level flight. Vertigo is a big killer of pilots. It is a condition of the inner ear that sends false sensations that conflict with what your instruments are telling you. From 2400 feet he would have plenty of altitude to go into a nose down dive that could quickly reach 160 knots. Everything will just be guess work and conjecture until the mishap report comes out about a year from now. In the meantime, the lawyers for the victim's families will be line up to get a piece of the action.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
TV news reporting they were climbing/climbed to 2400 prior to ‘plummeting ‘ @184 mph ( last reported speed).
This doesn’t fit the the description by the witness on the ground (by a church?) who described low and slow prior to impact.
there was a lot going on in the last 30-60 seconds of the flight, and i think when everything is considered the witness's account won't be all that far off the mark
My first assumption in looking at the pics and videos of the wreckage and the scattered debris field, is that this was not a low speed impact. The witnesses on the ground that I saw on TV did not see the chopper (due to heavy fog) but only heard the chopper.
The wreckage was scattered over an area spanning a couple of hundred yards - that is very typical of a chopper that impacts at low speed, resulting in the rotors coming off first and then the rest of the aircraft breaking up as it gets whipped around with parts of it rolling downhill. If it impacted @184 mph (faster than the max safe speed of that helo) it would be one dark burnt spot on the side of the hill with most pieces in relatively close vicinity.
Furthermore, one witness describes seeing the helo, but barely - just a dark blob moving slowly in and out of the clouds at a speed that he estimated as around 5 mph. He said he then heard several "popping" sounds that he initially thought was someone shooting a pistol. I'll bet what he heard were the rotor blades being obliterated when the helo got to close to the hillside.
I'm a commercial rated helicopter pilot (retired now) with 5000 hours as pilot in command. Mostly police patrol, but some corporate flying too. Sometimes, listening to the boss back at the airport, or the millionaire in the back seat instead of following your own knowledge and expertise will result in a catastrophe. Same thing happened to Stevie Ray Vaughan.
Ron
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. Orwell
TV news reporting they were climbing/climbed to 2400 prior to ‘plummeting ‘ @184 mph ( last reported speed).
This doesn’t fit the the description by the witness on the ground (by a church?) who described low and slow prior to impact.
If the helicopter was flying directly toward or away from witnesses at a low angle it would look very slow, obviously.
I get that, but the witness I saw interviewed heard the helo making a low slow left turn 30 or so seconds prior to impact. He did not make a visual. He said he was an audio engineer IIRC so should understand sound propagation.
The other radar video showing the flight following seemed to indicate they were low also.
Last edited by ironbender; 01/28/20.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
My first assumption in looking at the pics and videos of the wreckage and the scattered debris field, is that this was not a low speed impact. The witnesses on the ground that I saw on TV did not see the chopper (due to heavy fog) but only heard the chopper.
The wreckage was scattered over an area spanning a couple of hundred yards - that is very typical of a chopper that impacts at low speed, resulting in the rotors coming off first and then the rest of the aircraft breaking up as it gets whipped around with parts of it rolling downhill. If it impacted @184 mph (faster than the max safe speed of that helo) it would be one dark burnt spot on the side of the hill with most pieces in relatively close vicinity.
Furthermore, one witness describes seeing the helo, but barely - just a dark blob moving slowly in and out of the clouds at a speed that he estimated as around 5 mph. He said he then heard several "popping" sounds that he initially thought was someone shooting a pistol. I'll bet what he heard were the rotor blades being obliterated when the helo got to close to the hillside.
...............................Yep. I saw that too. The NTSB final report as to all of the many variables causing this crash will be the final say so. The area of the debris field is also determined by the angle of impact. I am sure that they will use computer software technology to re-enact the accident.....
TV news reporting they were climbing/climbed to 2400 prior to ‘plummeting ‘ @184 mph ( last reported speed).
This doesn’t fit the the description by the witness on the ground (by a church?) who described low and slow prior to impact.
there was a lot going on in the last 30-60 seconds of the flight, and i think when everything is considered the witness's account won't be all that far off the mark
here i was referring to the first witness, not the second one
Not sure how many understand “special vfr” rules. Anytime I personally used it (31yrs ATC), it was by a non IFR rated pilot or the AC was not IFR rated. It has to be requested by the pilot, ATC can not assign it. The pilot was holding because the airspace must be sterilized, which can be a huge PITA. After the special VFR clearance is granted, the pilot is supposed to use landmarks (roads, building, etc) to reach the destination. I never liked using it, because you are basically allowing a non-IFR rated pilot/plane to fly into IFR conditions. Every word each and every controller used will be scrutinized.
They're showing video of the copter on CBS right now. They said he climbed to about 2500 feet then went into a steep dive before impacting at about 185 mph.
Last edited by Snyper; 01/28/20.
One shot, one kill........ It saves a lot of ammo!
Inadvertent IMC. Climb and contact ATC. Someone forgot the rules.
kwg
Very true, but that is Step 2. Step 1 is don't get into inadvertent IMC. Night missions are another thing, but there is no excuse for "inadvertently" getting into IMC during the daylight on a civilian non life-critical mission. That's why God gave you eyes. And a brain.
TV news reporting they were climbing/climbed to 2400 prior to ‘plummeting ‘ @184 mph ( last reported speed).
This doesn’t fit the the description by the witness on the ground (by a church?) who described low and slow prior to impact.
there was a lot going on in the last 30-60 seconds of the flight, and i think when everything is considered the witness's account won't be all that far off the mark
here i was referring to the first witness, not the second one
So much that is not yet known.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
Just watched the NTSB news conference update today on youtube.....
Coroner confirms the identities of 5 out of the 9 on board. Kobe Bryant among the first 5 confirmed. Coroner still working on the other 4 victims to confirm their identities. Next of kin for the 5 confirmed including Kobe have officially been notified.
Secondly and contrary to what some witnesses say that this was somehow a slower speed impact. Instead, the sheriff authorities have confirmed a very high speed bank to the left upon impact.
12 to 18 months until the final NTSB report is disclosed.
Secondly and contrary to what some witnesses say that this was somehow a slower speed impact. Instead, the sheriff authorities have confirmed a very high speed bank to the left upon impact.
12 to 18 months until the final NTSB report is disclosed.
If ATC said he was "too low for flight following" - meaning they couldn't see him on radar, how dafu k do they know what he did once he dropped down from altitude? He could have dropped quickly down when he saw an opening in the clouds/fog and then rambled around slowly at low altitude looking for a way out or a reference point. This is one case where I'm believing the witness at the church.
of course, information raises more questions. But, two witnesses say the craft was moving slowly, perhaps then the pilot made the move to ascend above the deck. tbis is not easy to do without significant forward motion. He could've had a problem with that maneuver and/or in the process ended up in heavier fog, then lost spatial awareness and dropped hard from height, game over.
i'm sure the driver had a plan, but the worse judgment was being there to begin with. others mentioned visibility in fog, etc, turns out in that area the fog moves in/out rapidly, plus the terrain is wicked, trouble written all over it.
Unless the helicopter was equipped with an automatic flight/hover control, this would be extremely difficult to accomplish. It could be vertigo inducing. I could envision the pilot then making the decision to climb and gain airspeed to break out on top of the layer, assuming there was a layer, and if radar showed him at 2400 feet, and an airspeed of 160 kts, he may have eventually succumbed to vertigo and lost control of level flight. Vertigo is a big killer of pilots. It is a condition of the inner ear that sends false sensations that conflict with what your instruments are telling you.
I can't express just how sobering that is to me. There are a lot of S-76s flying around relying on the aircraft system I support, which is what drives those very instruments.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
The news is trying to make the case for pilot error. We wont know until the report, but I will betcha there is a serious mechanical malfunction involved. It hints toward tail rotor IMO.
We had some earlier saying that it was 'most likely' wire strike/loss of tail boom, but they never really explained what facts they had to support such... LOL.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Know nothing of the crash. Just the indicators of the flight radar video, radio chatter, and the last few seconds of flight. Little over 2000 hours of rotor wing flight, one of which was punctuated by tail rotor failure.
That's why you still see older pilots sitting in the right seat of airliners. They may be good technical pilots but they are afraid to, or don't know when to make the "hard decisions". The ones where you say "no, we're not going to do that". Captains can do that.
That's why you still see older pilots sitting in the right seat of airliners. They may be good technical pilots but they are afraid to, or don't know when to make the "hard decisions". The ones where you say "no, we're not going to do that". Captains can do that.
Secondly and contrary to what some witnesses say that this was somehow a slower speed impact. Instead, the sheriff authorities have confirmed a very high speed bank to the left upon impact.
12 to 18 months until the final NTSB report is disclosed.
If ATC said he was "too low for flight following" - meaning they couldn't see him on radar, how dafu k do they know what he did once he dropped down from altitude? He could have dropped quickly down when he saw an opening in the clouds/fog and then rambled around slowly at low altitude looking for a way out or a reference point. This is one case where I'm believing the witness at the church.
...........................You can drop below radar detection while still being fairly high off the ground depending on the terrain. I would assume that the best way you could determine if a high speed impact occurred,, or not to have occurred,,, would be to carefully look at the debris field, the condition of the wreckage, plus other variables.
During that latest press conference update, the sheriff officials stated that a high speed impact took place. That tells me that they acquired that info from the on site NTSB investigators who were actually at the scene of the crash.
Secondly and contrary to what some witnesses say that this was somehow a slower speed impact. Instead, the sheriff authorities have confirmed a very high speed bank to the left upon impact.
12 to 18 months until the final NTSB report is disclosed.
If ATC said he was "too low for flight following" - meaning they couldn't see him on radar, how dafu k do they know what he did once he dropped down from altitude? He could have dropped quickly down when he saw an opening in the clouds/fog and then rambled around slowly at low altitude looking for a way out or a reference point. This is one case where I'm believing the witness at the church.
...........................You can drop below radar detection while still being fairly high off the ground depending on the terrain. I would assume that the best way you could determine if a high speed impact occurred,, or not to have occurred,,, would be to carefully look at the debris field, the condition of the wreckage, plus other variables.
During that latest press conference update, the sheriff officials stated that a high speed impact took place. That tells me that they acquired that info from the on site NTSB investigators who were actually at the scene of the crash.
The pictures I've seen show a mess of rotor blades/parts higher on the hill with the fuselage and tail rotor and burned debris further down the hill.
Witnesses nearby who took picture of the fireball said they saw the bird come down out of the cloud and hit terra firma some couple hundred feet away.
After reaching 2300, it turned and dropped 500 ft in 15 seconds. Impacting at 1085 ft At below 1500 cloud gave way to fog/low vis.
500 feet in 15 seconds is a relatively slow "drop", isn't it?
Depends on the angle of the glide path
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
[quote=Starman] 500 feet in 15 seconds is a relatively slow "drop", isn't it?
Not really, that's 2000 fpm. That will kill you. A carrier landing for example, executed at a 3.5 deg glide slope, will run about 650-700 FPM and you hit pretty hard.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Witnesses nearby who took picture of the fireball said they saw the bird come down out of the cloud and hit terra firma some couple hundred feet away.
After reaching 2300, it turned and dropped 500 ft in 15 seconds. Impacting at 1085 ft At below 1500 cloud gave way to fog/low vis.
500 feet in 15 seconds is a relatively slow "drop", isn't it?
..............................Yeah it is. For a vertical drop it is slow. The questions then would be, what was the angle of descent and speed of the chopper on the more horizontal plain.
My best guess from the information we currently have. Pilot error, 100%. He had many opportunities to turn back, but didn't. Accidents are a chain of events leading up to the crash, he didn't break the chain.
Best guess, he eventually went IIMC, didn't have the situational awareness to know he was headed straight for the mountain. He did, however, initiate a climb. Now what happened after is the big question... but no matter what happened next, they never should have been in that position to begin with.
Did they clip something like wires, the mountain itself? Possibly. But, from what I've read, the turning descent at 2000fpm and 184mph, would only have me thinking main rotor damage. Tail rotor, no. That would be an immediate auto rotation and controlled descent around the 2000fpm, but at 80 knots, ish, not twice that.
How often did he fly actual IFR? Did he get spacial disorientation and, despite having instruments to reference, simply lose control and all reference with little time to regain control?
I think the only thing we do know is they shouldn't have continued that flight, or not gone in the first place.
[quote=Starman] 500 feet in 15 seconds is a relatively slow "drop", isn't it?
Not really, that's 2000 fpm. That will kill you. A carrier landing for example, executed at a 3.5 deg glide slope, will run about 650-700 FPM and you hit pretty hard.
Helicopters don't necessarily have to maintain a constant glide path during stable powered flight, even in autorotation, so the forward airspeed can vary during the descent.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
My best guess from the information we currently have. Pilot error, 100%. He had many opportunities to turn back, but didn't. Accidents are a chain of events leading up to the crash, he didn't break the chain.
Best guess, he eventually went IIMC, didn't have the situational awareness to know he was headed straight for the mountain. He did, however, initiate a climb. Now what happened after is the big question... but no matter what happened next, they never should have been in that position to begin with.
Did they clip something like wires, the mountain itself? Possibly. But, from what I've read, the turning descent at 2000fpm and 184mph, would only have me thinking main rotor damage. Tail rotor, no. That would be an immediate auto rotation and controlled descent around the 2000fpm, but at 80 knots, ish, not twice that.
How often did he fly actual IFR? Did he get spacial disorientation and, despite having instruments to reference, simply lose control and all reference with little time to regain control?
I think the only thing we do know is they shouldn't have continued that flight, or not gone in the first place.
RIP to all
This is a most reasonable speculation IMHBO. As for the pilot's poor judgement to fly that day, in light of the weather, Kobe was the host of that tournament, and had probably decided not to drive, and knew that they would be late (2-hour drive) if they did not take the helicopter, so he made the pilot an offer he couldn't refuse. The rest was a chain of bad decisions, as you say.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
My best guess from the information we currently have. Pilot error, 100%. He had many opportunities to turn back, but didn't. Accidents are a chain of events leading up to the crash, he didn't break the chain.
Best guess, he eventually went IIMC, didn't have the situational awareness to know he was headed straight for the mountain. He did, however, initiate a climb. Now what happened after is the big question... but no matter what happened next, they never should have been in that position to begin with.
Did they clip something like wires, the mountain itself? Possibly. But, from what I've read, the turning descent at 2000fpm and 184mph, would only have me thinking main rotor damage. Tail rotor, no. That would be an immediate auto rotation and controlled descent around the 2000fpm, but at 80 knots, ish, not twice that.
How often did he fly actual IFR? Did he get spacial disorientation and, despite having instruments to reference, simply lose control and all reference with little time to regain control?
I think the only thing we do know is they shouldn't have continued that flight, or not gone in the first place.
LOS ANGELES (AP) — The helicopter carrying Kobe Bryant didn’t have a recommended warning system to alert the pilot he was too close to land but it’s not clear it would have averted the crash that killed nine because the pilot may have lost control as the aircraft plunged into a fog-shrouded mountain, federal investigators said Tuesday.
Pilot Ara Zobayan had been climbing out of the clouds when the aircraft banked left and began a sudden and terrifying 1,200-foot (366-meter) descent that lasted nearly a minute.
“This is a pretty steep descent at high speed,” said Jennifer Homendy of the National Transportation Safety Board. "We know that this was a high-energy impact crash."
The aircraft was intact when it hit the ground, but the impact spread debris over more than 500 feet (150 meters). Remains of the final victims were recovered Tuesday and so far the remains of Bryant, Zobayan and two other passengers have been identified using fingerprints.
Determining what caused the crash will take months, but investigators may again recommend that to avoid future crashes helicopters carrying six or more passenger seats be equipped with a Terrain Awareness and Warning System that would have sounded an alarm if the aircraft was in danger of crashing.
The agency made that recommendation after a similar helicopter, a Sikorsky S-76A carrying workers to an offshore drilling ship, crashed in the Gulf of Mexico near Galveston, Texas, killing all 10 people on board in 2004.
The NTSB concluded if TAWS had been installed, pilots would have been warned in time to prevent hitting the water. The board recommended that the Federal Aviation Administration require the warning systems. Ten years later, the FAA eventually required such systems on air ambulances, but not other helicopters.
Ben
Some days it takes most of the day for me to do practically nothing...
I really don't understand all the press coverage and outpouring over Kobe Bryant; yes, he was good at basketball, but he was just a basketball player. There are thousands who die each year who have made solid long-lasting contributions to mankind and science.
Helicopters don't necessarily have to maintain a constant glide path during stable powered flight, even in autorotation..
welcome to the absurdity of the CF, people trying to parallel FW carrier landing to RW.
and more CF clueless trademark stupid from same person.. just think - you can be that ignorant and still work in the Pentagon.
Originally Posted by jorgeI
.. 0/0 height/vis ... Other than extreme operational requirements (as in we are in a war and men are dying so you need to launch), there is absolutely ZERO NEED to take off in those conditions.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
I really don't understand all the press coverage and outpouring over Kobe Bryant; yes, he was good at basketball, but he was just a basketball player. There are thousands who die each year who have made solid long-lasting contributions to mankind and science.
AMEN!
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
I really don't understand all the press coverage and outpouring over Kobe Bryant; yes, he was good at basketball, but he was just a basketball player. There are thousands who die each year who have made solid long-lasting contributions to mankind and science.
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