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jimmyp Offline OP
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I hate to agree, but...


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jimmyp Offline OP
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You know the big guns but really are not knowledgeable regards self defense cartridges. People are prejudiced, they only believe what they want to believe. Explain to me where my prejudices are when I say there are solid well thought out reasons that the 9mm has been adopted over the 40 and 45 ACP for military and police use? If I have killed a deer or not with a handgun is another red herring.


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Factory SD/Duty loadings for the combat calibers perform similarly because they are intended to. It's in their design.

No doubt, when loading to full potential there are differences between them, for sure.

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Originally Posted by jimmyp
You know the big guns but really are not knowledgeable regards self defense cartridges. People are prejudiced, they only believe what they want to believe. Explain to me where my prejudices are when I say there are solid well thought out reasons that the 9mm has been adopted over the 40 and 45 ACP for military and police use? If I have killed a deer or not with a handgun is another red herring.


You're making an assumption.

Now again, tell me how many of those deer fell to a handgun?


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The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
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Originally Posted by WTM45
Factory SD/Duty loadings for the combat calibers perform similarly because they are intended to. It's in their design.

No doubt, when loading to full potential there are differences between them, for sure.


This is what most miss . Chicken vs egg .
FBI sets protocol , ammo is produced to game the fbi test .
Internet folk read it as all “service” cartridges perform the same .
Then poo poo folk that mention they’ve seen a marked difference in game ... game is mentioned because not everyone gets to shoot humans


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Sport chamberings are much different than work chamberings.

Rapid follow up shots, capacity, and the ability to train the borderline un-trainable are not factors in sporting cartridges. They are in work cartridges.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by deflave
Sport chamberings are much different than work chamberings.

Rapid follow up shots, capacity, and the ability to train the borderline un-trainable are not factors in sporting cartridges. They are in work cartridges.






Red Snapper


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I call them facts. But have fun proving me right.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by deflave
I call them facts. But have fun proving me right.

I understand... I’ll see if hickock has a vid on it


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Whitworth1, you are posting to discredit me, good for you, it says a lot about you. In the field of big game hunting with a handgun you have been there and done that. However what most military and police agencies are using have nothing to do with handgun hunting. Further my handgun hunting abilities have nothing to do with the effectiveness of 9mm, 40SW, and 45 ACP as used in self defense shootings. You cannot say I am making an assumption when most agencies are adopting the 9mm for their personnel who go into harms way and all self defense handgun rounds are more similar than they are different....As Bluedreax said he has not seen anything shot with a 124 grain gold dot that has lived.
We have our personal prejudices and we are entitled to our own opinions but we are not entitled to our own facts, the 9mm with good bullets is about the same in performance as the 45ACP in self defense shootings, not an assumption, if you say it is post up proof that the 45ACP with its best bullets is 20% better using all considerations than the 9mm.


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'flave has nailed down the reasoning behind what I stated, that the service/duty calibers are DESIGNED to perform alike.
Shootability. Scores matter.


Facts are, today's loads pouring the coal (+P/+P+) to a 9MM gets results close to standard .357Sig/.40S&W/10MM/.45ACP loadings.

Pour the coal to those four, then get back to me.

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Originally Posted by WTM45
'flave has nailed down the reasoning behind what I stated, that the service/duty calibers are DESIGNED to perform alike.
Shootability. Scores matter.


Facts are, today's loads pouring the coal (+P/+P+) to a 9MM gets results close to standard .357Sig/.40S&W/10MM/.45ACP loadings.

Pour the coal to those four, then get back to me.

yep thats the reason why so many military agencies and the police are adopting the 44 magnum shooting 240 grain speer gold dots.


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Jim, you are missing my point.
I'm in agreement with you to the extent of enough in a loading is enough. There is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to service calibers for CCW/SD/Duty. But you have to admit more power can be found than what is in the best +P+ 9MM.
Whether it is needed or not is a different discussion.


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
Whitworth1, you are posting to discredit me, good for you, it says a lot about you. In the field of big game hunting with a handgun you have been there and done that. However what most military and police agencies are using have nothing to do with handgun hunting. Further my handgun hunting abilities have nothing to do with the effectiveness of 9mm, 40SW, and 45 ACP as used in self defense shootings. You cannot say I am making an assumption when most agencies are adopting the 9mm for their personnel who go into harms way and all self defense handgun rounds are more similar than they are different....As Bluedreax said he has not seen anything shot with a 124 grain gold dot that has lived.
We have our personal prejudices and we are entitled to our own opinions but we are not entitled to our own facts, the 9mm with good bullets is about the same in performance as the 45ACP in self defense shootings, not an assumption, if you say it is post up proof that the 45ACP with its best bullets is 20% better using all considerations than the 9mm.



I've shot deer and pigs with both the 9mm and the 45 ACP. They are not the same but with today's better ammo the 9mm is better than it's ever been.
Dr. Martin Fackler spend a great majority of his lifes work in wound ballistics and he said that the edge went to the larger caliber weapons.
Dr. Facer also said that it is impossible to quantify a percentage of better because of too many variables.

A 45 caliber bullet is more likely to break a bone than to simply shoot a hole through it as happened in the FBI Miami shootout in 1986

Advantage 45 in bullet diameter, advantage in 9mm with magazine capacity.

Deflave is correct in what he posted, Jommy not so much when he says they ste the same

Properly loaded 45 has an edge in my opinion but the magazine capacity of the 9 can not be ignored and I have traded in my 45 for a high capacity 9mm




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Originally Posted by Whitworth1
Originally Posted by jimmyp
Also killing deer with a 223 and 62 grain TSX bullets is no different than killing them with a 308 and 150 grain bullets. Also I have killed over 100 deer in my life from little ones to way big ones.


Maybe if your name is Stevie Wonder.

How many of those deer kills were by handgun?

Hahahahahahaha.
I ask a similar question and get called an ahole. 😀

George.


�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Originally Posted by NH K9
Originally Posted by Whitworth1
Originally Posted by jimmyp
Also killing deer with a 223 and 62 grain TSX bullets is no different than killing them with a 308 and 150 grain bullets. Also I have killed over 100 deer in my life from little ones to way big ones.


Maybe if your name is Stevie Wonder.

How many of those deer kills were by handgun?

Hahahahahahaha.
I ask a similar question and get called an ahole. 😀

George.



Valid question that Jimmy side steps



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Fakler's 1987 studies have been largely superseded. I mean who talks about stopping power anymore?? The computer is a wonderful device for collecting, storing, organizing, and analyzing data. Shooting data compiled and analyzed indicate that handgun cartridges 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP offer very similar performance. If anyone has recent data that shows through a significant number of cases that the 45ACP is 20-30% better than the 9mm, I would be happy to admit that I am wrong provided its from a reliable source, and not something like the 19 year old and largely discredited Strasbourg goat shooting test. Even Jeff Cooper's 1911 45ACP love was based largely on anecdotal evidence and personal prejudice. Again if I am wrong tell my why most federal, state, local, agencies have moved to the 9mm? Don't say because they are weenie's and can't shoot big guns, that is another red herring. Why would they put an inferior cartridge into their personnel's hands to go into harms way?


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
Fakler's 1987 studies have been largely superseded. I mean who talks about stopping power anymore?? The computer is a wonderful device for collecting, storing, organizing, and analyzing data. Shooting data compiled and analyzed indicate that handgun cartridges 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP offer very similar performance. If anyone has recent data that shows through a significant number of cases that the 45ACP is 20-30% better than the 9mm, I would be happy to admit that I am wrong provided its from a reliable source, and not something like the 19 year old and largely discredited Strasbourg goat shooting test. Even Jeff Cooper's 1911 45ACP love was based largely on anecdotal evidence and personal prejudice. Again if I am wrong tell my why most federal, state, local, agencies have moved to the 9mm? Don't say because they are weenie's and can't shoot big guns, that is another red herring. Why would they put an inferior cartridge into their personnel's hands to go into harms way?



No his wortk has not been superceded and his work went way past 1987

You are all or nothing no one said that it is an inferior cartridge.
Are you obtuse naturally or do you work at it


Last edited by jwp475; 01/27/20.


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posted by Casey Ponton

Last year I dropped my boy off at his stand. Shortly after I heard three shots. Went to get him and found two dead hogs in ride away and he told me he’d shot a third one. We walked down and sure enough found a third sow about 150 lbs with a broken spine. We walked up to her and followed along beside her as she was dragging herself along on her front end. I pulled my beretta and shot her basically point blank (mag tech 9mm 147 gr hollow point) and I shot her again, and again and again and again and she kept crawling. On the 12th shot she finally fell and slowly gave up. Again let me elaborate. 12 slow well placed shots, distance of 5 feet and closer and she showed zero effects until she finally collapsed. My son is 10 years old this year and if you mention 9mm pistol he’ll be quick to tell you about that day and his feelings on the 9mm. Lol



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2 years ago, fellow called me and the president of our club, he had just shot an 8 pt in the neck with his 30-06 and been looking for it for an hour could not find it. We went to the club the next 2 days and looked a couple of hours each day, finally found the rest of the deer where the coyote's had not eaten it. Neck intact no hole in it, probably hit him too far back but could not tell that, just no hole or damage to the neck. These anecdotal stories are great fun but do not prove that the 9mm is not equal to the 45ACP. In my desk drawer I have 40 Underwood 147 grain hard cast cartridges that I load in my P365 when I carry it hunting, different mission, different bullets.


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