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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,897
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,897 |
There are plans to issue the new Military Rifles with suppressors,otherwise muzzle blast from a 80,000 psi round would be horrific.
The whole project seems like they are chasing their tail,they need a 16 inch barrel because of the added length of the suppressor,which they need because of the high pressure which they need to get the necessary velocity from the short barrel.
Does anyone else see the absurdity of the thought process?
I have a Kimber Adirondack in 6.5 Creedmoor,the Hornady 120 grain GMX Superformance load gives me 2950 fps without a suppressor,and 2980 fps with one.
All of this at about 60,000 psi.
Since the difference in terminal effect between a 6.5mm 120 grain projectile and a 6.8mm 140 grain projectile is undectable.( I know because I've killed a bunch with both.)And the the BCs of the bullets are very close,what real world gain do they expect to see by inventing a new cartridge with a pressure that is going to be a mechanical nightmare with respect to a host of components.
The thing will be hell on barrels,as well as bolt and receiver components as well. They could use a 20 inch barrel in a 260 Remington with 130 grain bullets and do the same thing at 65000 psi. Because of the lower a pressures a really short suppressor that extends 4 inches beyond the muzzle and a couple of inches behind it would be as quiet as a full length suppressor on the high pressure 6.8.
If I being a Dentist and a rifle looney of the first order know all this stuff,why does anybody spending the money in the military not get it?
Just amazing.
The military is going to suppressers to eliminate hearing damage to soldiers, not simply because of the pressure
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,945
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,945 |
That's why I use them too,but all my points are valid. You can do the same thing at lower pressure in a slightly longer barrel and a slightly shorter suppressor without the issues that will be coming at 80,000 psi.It requires special(expensive) brass. It wears out barrels a lot faster,and it will wear out other components faster as well. It seems like opening a can of worms for no good reason.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,373
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,373 |
I'll give the military procurement folks the benefit of the doubt that this actually meets some need better than other options, but a big cynical part of me wonders how much donations to various Congressional "charities" played a part in the selection process?
I recall someone said that the F-35 is one of the biggest successes in lobbying history, maybe Sig Sauer knows how to play that game?
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,712
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,712 |
It seems to me that this has the earmarks of being the equivalent of the $300 hammer.
Jim
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,218
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,218 |
I wonder if the belt fed machine gun will have a suppressor.....
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,766
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,766 |
I'm very skeptical.
As machine gun, it's going to eat barrels.
At those pressures.
If it ever makes it to issue rifles, they are going to be big and heavy.
Recoil has to be near 308/30-06 levels. The levels people complained about 60 years ago.
Full auto? We had a 9 pound platform with a 147gr bullet at 2800fps.
It was deemed too hard to control on full auto, and emasculated to semi.
Heck, most AR platforms over the last 40 or 50 years haven't had full auto.
So, will they give our troops a big, heavy, hard kicking, semi auto rifle.
That probably would impress the hell out of some.
Those who no nothing of ballistics, or history.
After all,
It is state if the art, for the '30s.
Well, the 1930's.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
It seems to me that this has the earmarks of being the equivalent of the $300 hammer.
Jim BINGO !! I read it uses STEEL cases...... Not brass! IF, IF that’s correct, no reloading. Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 13,649
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 13,649 |
It seems to me that this has the earmarks of being the equivalent of the $300 hammer.
Jim BINGO !! I read it uses STEEL cases...... Not brass! IF, IF that’s correct, no reloading. Jerry IIRC steel case head, brass body.
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,408
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,408 |
The .277 winchester with all the naysayers, ( beerslayers) has been excellellent over the years,
Underdevoloped for newer modern purposes but steadfast for our elk killing and N.P.'s.
I have always found it overperformed( with good bullets). I can see why the military and Nosler Co. have decided it just might be ultimate bore diameter.
Make mine a Jack O'Conner special model 70, wood and blue, straight 4x scope and you have the quintessential Desert Bighorn rifle. - .270 wcf
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,792
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,792 |
A 277 140 @ 3k with 80k psi.
Yep, you are going to need to change those barrels.
Plenty of folks approaching 3000fps and 140s from the Creedmoor using R26, albeit with 24”+ barrels. I suspect they’re running some really high pressures too, but somehow they’re getting away with it. John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,376
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,376 |
The military has minimal care about costs.
And, if it provides a fighting advantage, such as increased range from a smaller package, a barrel need only last one firefight. It then gets replaced afterwards.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,297
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,297 |
The military has minimal care about costs.
And, if it provides a fighting advantage, such as increased range from a smaller package, a barrel need only last one firefight. It then gets replaced afterwards. That may be true, but logistically speaking, replacing barrels to teams at the nether regions of places where getting logistics into austere environments isn't a good way to roll. Today's military picks are leaps and bounds better than what they have ever been and typically have some smart folks thinking through those sorts of problems. Most weapons are shot ALOT before they are picked and they are picked apart by end users. Not saying we haven't ever gotten crap, but todays gear and equipment has a Test and Evaluation phase that roots out most problems. And most military folks could give a darn about our 24HCF love for 6.5/7mm/308 calibers. We only wanted what worked and if it is a .277 bullet that offers better range than what we have and does it in a package that is man portable and reliable it is mission accomplished.
Last edited by beretzs; 01/30/20.
Semper Fi
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,734
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,734 |
It may turn out to be a "upgrade" M25 version. It could be that any machinegun would be on a crew served mobile platform ( where extra barrels/ammo can be stored) Anything out in the windy desert that will beat the 77gr 5.56 would be nice. In town, I just don't see anything beating the M4. We shall see! I "prefer" a drone, robot or any "standoff" weapon be used...our troops are too precious for most fights.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,041
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,041 |
It seems to me that this has the earmarks of being the equivalent of the $300 hammer.
Jim BINGO !! I read it uses STEEL cases...... Not brass! IF, IF that’s correct, no reloading. Jerry IIRC steel case head, brass body. This is correct and the case has a similar OAL to the .308. I to wonder why not just base it off a .308 case then?
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