Baldhunter your comparison of the 338-06 with a 200 gr. AB to a .300 WM with a 200 gr. AB is a faulty comparison.. For the comparison to be equal or even close, you should use the speeds of a .30 cal 150 gr. AB to compare to the 200 AB in .338.. It is no great trick to get 3400fps out of a 150 in a .300 WM.. Or you should use at least a 250 gr. 338 AB and compare that to a 200 gr, 30 cal.. Things that look good on paper are not always what they seem..
Jevyod, Experiment a bit for your own personal enjoyment. The savage rifle is perfect for your contemplations: Cheap barrels that can be swapped out at home without need of a gunsmith.
Because of the bore size and faster burn rates of powders commonly used in the 338-06 and 35 whelen, you'll find that the medium bores need less barrel length for sufficient velocity.
20.5" barrels using reloader 15 or mr-2000 makes for a compact and efficient package shooting 220-250 grain bullets.
Slower powders and heavy for caliber 30-06 bullets might be better in a 22" barrel.
With your 358 Winchester, reloader 10x makes one heck of a short barreled powder. AK_lance/Luke took a 50+ inch racked moose using 10x in a 16 inch barreled kimber 358. His chronograph showed a negligible velocity loss compared to my 20" barreled 358's.
I hear yah about those east coast black bears. My mother was a registered guide up in northern Maine. She recalls a couple black bears bigger than what I see in barren ground grizz up here in Alaska.
I … So I have the option of A. Leaving it as an 06. Would probably put a better stock on than the cheap birch it came with. Or B. I can re-barrel to an 06 based cartridge. So I have been looking at primarily 338-06 or 35 whelen, or leaving it as an 06. I ran the numbers, and on paper there does not seem to be much difference between the 3 at 350 yards. …
Some comments:
1. Keep the .30-06 if it shoots. It will do everything you want. 2. Not much wrong with the “cheap birch” stock. I think they are better than most factory synthetics. They are relatively light and rigid. If the “walnut look” birch bothers you, paint it. 3. You’re not stuck with a .30-06 or cartridges with a .473” case head. The Savage bolt head is easily swapped out to a Magnum bolt head. You could do a 28 Nosler. .300WM, .338WM or a large variety of other cartridges for the cost of a bolt head.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
Coyote hunter, Good advice on the birch. It's good wood. We mill it up here in Alaska. Because of the short growth season, the growth rings are tiny.
It's denser than black walnut. It makes walnut feel like balsa wood.
My trade is composite construction of boats and dog sleds. Some of my resins are way tougher than than some of the composite stocks that I've seen cracked up here. I'm currently experimenting with Alaskan birch lamination using slow-cure penetrating resins and 78 degrees heat. Should survive the 505 gibbs/lead-sled torture test.
Baldhunter your comparison of the 338-06 with a 200 gr. AB to a .300 WM with a 200 gr. AB is a faulty comparison.. For the comparison to be equal or even close, you should use the speeds of a .30 cal 150 gr. AB to compare to the 200 AB in .338.. It is no great trick to get 3400fps out of a 150 in a .300 WM.. Or you should use at least a 250 gr. 338 AB and compare that to a 200 gr, 30 cal.. Things that look good on paper are not always what they seem..
What is faulty with this?Maybe you didn't understand my statement.I wasn't comparing apples to oranges like you.I was stating what velocity I was getting with my rifles with a 200gr Accubond in my 30-06 @ 2650fps,300 Win Mag @ 2860fps and 338-06 @ 2849fps.I wasn't making comparisons of different bullet weights and the speeds of them,I was looking at one bullet type and weight,the 200gr Accubond,the difference was 30 cal and 338 cal.Using the same case but increasing the caliber size,I was able to gain about 175-200fps over the 30-06 by necking up to 338.My 300 win Mag load was was running 2860fps and my best 338-06 load was running 2849fps.That was only 11fps difference in speed.And when you have a 338cal bullet going the same speed as a 30cal bullet of the same kind,which on do you think will have the bigger whoomp when it hits?Is the 338-06 as good as a 300 Win Mag?Hell no it isn't.The 300 Win Mag is far superior.In this particular case the 338-06 was a step up from the 30-06 parent using the same bullet weight and brought it closer to the 300 Win Mag I was using.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~ As Bob Hagel would say"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."Good words of wisdom...............
Being a huge 338-06 proponent it is hard to not suggest that cartridge. But here goes.
30-06 practical, and is fine, if you like it. Will do everything you ask. 338-06 as already stated is my choice, bigger diameter than 30-06. Better bullet selection than the Whelen 35 Whelen, sentimental favorite, though I feel the 338-06 has better ballistic properties. No difference in the field though.
Go with what you like. A few disagree, but I feel a bigger diameter hits harder.
That is good to her about the birch. Just figured it is as crappy as it looks. I can easily paint it...have done it before. So at the very least make the stock look better and put a decent recoil pad on it. At this point I believe I will see how it shoots, and if it shoots well maybe shoot it a while until the barrel gets shot out, then look at replacing the barrel.
......the occasional hunter wielding a hopelessly inaccurate rifle, living by the fantastical rule that this cartridge can deliver the goods, regardless of shot placement or rifle accuracy. The correct term for this is minute of ego.
I had a birch stock that I didn't like the blotchy grain pattern that wouldn't take an even stain. So I sanded all the finish off, and burned the surface with a torch. And then lightly sanded to smooth and even out the color a bit. Then stained it with a dark walnut stain which went on really evenly giving it an antiqued look. And then put a coat of Johnson paste wax in the yellow tin on top of that for a smooth satin finish. Turned out pretty decent looking.
If it has a more even colored wood grain, then I think they look good with a lighter, shinier, golden color, natural finish.
I … So I have the option of A. Leaving it as an 06. Would probably put a better stock on than the cheap birch it came with. Or B. I can re-barrel to an 06 based cartridge. So I have been looking at primarily 338-06 or 35 whelen, or leaving it as an 06. I ran the numbers, and on paper there does not seem to be much difference between the 3 at 350 yards. …
Some comments:
1. Keep the .30-06 if it shoots. It will do everything you want. 2. Not much wrong with the “cheap birch” stock. I think they are better than most factory synthetics. They are relatively light and rigid. If the “walnut look” birch bothers you, paint it. 3. You’re not stuck with a .30-06 or cartridges with a .473” case head. The Savage bolt head is easily swapped out to a Magnum bolt head. You could do a 28 Nosler. .300WM, .338WM or a large variety of other cartridges for the cost of a bolt head.
Coyote_Hunter nails it. My brother's "cheap birch stock" on his 280AI is light, handy, and (with pillar and glass bedding) gets the job done. It started as an '06 and we put a Shaw Savage replacement barrel on and it's a solid moa or better rifle. You can spend as much as you like, but I've found that a high price doesn't necessarily make a "better" rifle. All depends on what floats your boat.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~ As Bob Hagel would say"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."Good words of wisdom...............
Looking at CRS's post I have little to add, but for the one other cartridge you may consider. The 9.3X62. I have owned and used the 30-06 the 338/06 and the 9.3X62 . I sold my 338/06s but for the life of me I can't see why I did. I still have three 30-06s and one 9.3X62 and the 9.3 with Nosler partitions seems to hit elk as well as my 375H&H and puts them down FAST! The 30-06 is the all American standard and I have no complaints about it at all, as long as I have fired bullet that didn't break up too badly. I have nothing but praise for how well it works on elk. In my lever action Browning M95 I usually use a 220 grain, and I use the same bullet with a charge of 3031 in my M-1 Garand to give me the port pressure that the M1 should have. I have killed elk with both, and can't say a single bad thing about either rifle and the 220 grain bullets (Nosler Sierra and Hornady) all seem to work as well for elk killing, as I could ask for.
I have made about twenty 35 Whelens and 100% of the customers who got them loved them, so I doubt you can go wrong with any of them. My friend Don from Carson City Nevada dropped 2 elk with 2 shots in the last 2 seasons using a Remington I re-barreled for him to 35 Whelen, and says it's the best elk gun he's ever owned.
As far as "need" goes.........forget it. Need is not important at all.
Sure, all the cartridges are overlapping as elk shells, and all will do the job. The 30-06 is the one with the easiest brass to get and the least expensive. But you are not a game department employee being issued a rifle for your needs. You buy what you WANT because it makes you happy and that is BY FAR the most important reason to get one.
i'm in the 30-06 camp. either 180gr partitions or accubonds. repeatedly proven sufficient for anything in north america, and just about everything world-wide.
I have been reading with interest the thread about 338-06 or 35 whelen, because I am in a bit of the same situation. I have a 358 Win that I thought I could use, but due to it being built off a small ring Mauser, I want to keep pressures down. Because of that, I am looking at the possibilities for a bigger game rifle. Here are my parameters: game up to elk and moose size, also sufficient for big black bear. (here in Pa we have several 600+lb bear shot each year. Distance, I would say my max range at this point is 350 yards, maybe 400. I have an older Savage 110 rifle currently chambered in 30-06 that I have never shot. The gunsmith put a bore scope down the barrel, and said it looks like it as shot very little. So I have the option of A. Leaving it as an 06. Would probably put a better stock on than the cheap birch it came with. Or B. I can re-barrel to an 06 based cartridge. So I have been looking at primarily 338-06 or 35 whelen, or leaving it as an 06. I ran the numbers, and on paper there does not seem to be much difference between the 3 at 350 yards.
For the 06 using 180 grain accubonds and figuring 2850 fps muzzle velocity, 350 yard vel is 2252/2027 lbs energy. For the 338-06 using 225 grain accubond figuring mv of 2685, 350 yard vel is 2144/2296 lbs energy For the whelen using 225 accubond figuring mv of 2650, 350 yard vel is 1984/1966 lbs energy.
Do these numbers look like they are reasonable? I got them from Hodgdon's site. The nosler shows higher vel with the whelen, but that is a 26 inch barrel. Secondly am I missing the point entirely and should I be looking at something else? I would like to keep it to a simple barrel change if possible. For what I am seeing, I am tempted to see how the 06 currently shots, and if it is good just be done with it. My reasoning for that is easy to get brass, and a big bullet selection. I do reload for pretty much everything I have, so i don't see doing differently with an 06.
.................................Looks like you are trying to justify a new purchase?? LOL...Hey! We all do it in some manner.
Given your above parameters and location, the 30-06 is outstanding. That is of course unless you just have to have a 338 or a 35. I would not put too much emphasis on the down range velocity/energy #s given that your above comparisons for the three are close enough to one another and are more than sufficient for your use with nearly a ton of energy for one and more than a ton for the other two @ 350 yards. Splitting a few hairs here.... Instead, I would focus more on comparing down range bullet trajectories and windages at ranges beyond your rifle scope's zero. Chances are, just guessing, is that you may not have a long ranged (simply dial in your range) scope? Eliminate as much holdover guess work as possible prior to your shot by knowing your bullet trajectories or bullet flight paths via the use of a ballistics calculator.
30-06 is fine......Take that older Savage 110 out and see what she does. If it shoots well, then leave it as a 30-06....
i'm in the 30-06 camp. either 180gr partitions or accubonds. repeatedly proven sufficient for anything in north america, and just about everything world-wide.
Well, the good Col. Whelen did say, "The 30-06 is never a mistake." and I'm inclined to agree. I've shot a lot of deer with the 06 over many years and even took one cow elk back about 4 years ago with the 06 running a 165 gr. Accubond. The elk ran about 30 yards a collapsed. One the other hand, most of my elk hunting (cows only as I just hunt for the meat.) have been taken with my .35 Whelen and the Barnes 225 gr. TSX at 2710 FPS out the muzzle.
Results with the Whelen on 6 elk were 3 bang flop, DRT and 3 bang flop, couldn't go anywhere but needed a finisher. Elk were shot from 75 yards out as far as 350 yards. It's worked so well that I haven't bothered to try any other bullet in that rifle. Paul B.
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them. MOLON LABE
...So I have been looking at primarily 338-06 or 35 whelen, or leaving it as an 06. I ran the numbers, and on paper there does not seem to be much difference between the 3 at 350 yards.
For the 06 using 180 grain accubonds and figuring 2850 fps muzzle velocity, 350 yard vel is 2252/2027 lbs energy. For the 338-06 using 225 grain accubond figuring mv of 2685, 350 yard vel is 2144/2296 lbs energy For the whelen using 225 accubond figuring mv of 2650, 350 yard vel is 1984/1966 lbs energy.
Do these numbers look like they are reasonable?
I own all these calibers and I think the first two are reasonable, but the 35 Whelen is being sold way short. The 225 NAB will do 2700 with Varget but the real secret in the Whelen is PP 2000-MR. That powder will safely give you 2800+ with the 225. Speer recently published data for the Whelen with 2000-MR, getting 2700' with the 250 HotCor, and Sierra got 2900' with the 225 SGK. These are published numbers. I have worked towards them but stopped about 50 FPS short of both those numbers because it was all I needed with nicely low pressure. I'm sneaking up on 3000' right now with the 200TTSX and Varmint - still doing the range work, but will post when complete. My rifle is an AI with a long throat, but the numbers above are published by Speer and Sierra for the basic Whelen.
Everything respondents have written about the 30-06 is valid. It's a great round as is and ought to serve you well. So is the 338-06, which will give you a nice 2700 FPS with 2000-MR and the225 AB or Partition. I have a 24" barreled 338-06 and am about to have a 19" carbine rebored to that caliber. I just wanted to give you the best case data to use to compare the Whelen to them both - you won't go wrong with any of them, and you'll have a bunch of fun at the range if you pick something besides that boring old 30-06. But "boring" has a lot of virtue...
And when you have a 338cal bullet going the same speed as a 30cal bullet of the same kind,which on do you think will have the bigger whoomp when it hits?
Your logic is still flawed.
#1 You're not considering Sectional Density. The 30 caliber bullet in the same weight will always penetrate deeper regardless of range assuming the same bullet and shot placement.
#2 In this case the difference in 3/100" bullet diameter is about the same as your fingernail. Not enough to matter.
# 3 Even if you compare a 200 gr 30-06 at 2650 fps MV to a 200 gr 338-06 at 2800 fps MV, nobody shoots stuff at the muzzle. At only 100 yards the 30-06 has almost caught up to the 338-06. By 200 yards it has equaled 338-06, beyond 200 yards the 30-06 beats it in every way. While both have more than enough punch to get the job done at close range the 200 gr 30-06 has almost 200 ft lbs more energy at 400, plus the ability to penetrate deeper. And since the 30-06 started the same bullet weight 150 fps slower recoil will be considerably less.
#4 If you compare 338-06 to 300 WM both shooting 200 gr bullets to the same speed the 300 wins in every category at the muzzle; and the gap only gets wider as range increases. And since you're shooting the same bullet weights to the same speed the 338-06 will recoil virtually the same as 300 WM. If I have to deal with the same recoil anyway then I might as well get the advantages of 300 WM.
Not to say the 338-06 won't work it obviously will. But it doesn't offer a single advantage over 30-06, we're splitting hairs regardless. And when you consider that there are people killing elk at 1/2 mile with 243's it seems pretty pointless to argue about 338-06 vs 30-06.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
L... Sure, all the cartridges are overlapping as elk shells, and all will do the job. The 30-06 is the one with the easiest brass to get and the least expensive. But you are not a game department employee being issued a rifle for your needs. You buy what you WANT because it makes you happy and that is BY FAR the most important reason to get one.
Yup.
That's why I have three ARs, three .30-06s, three Marlin levers, eight .308 caliber rifles, six centerfire autoloading handguns, five Ruger revolvers, two 7mm rifles, two 6.5mm rifles, four .22 rimfire rifles, three .22 rimfire autoloader handguns, three 12 gauge shotguns, and two .50 caliber muzzleloaders.
If need was the requirement, I could have stopped with my Ruger 7mm RM, Browning SA .22, Browning Buckmark .22, Remington 870 12 gauge, and my Kimber .45. No, thank you.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
And when you have a 338cal bullet going the same speed as a 30cal bullet of the same kind,which on do you think will have the bigger whoomp when it hits?
Your logic is still flawed.
#1 You're not considering Sectional Density. The 30 caliber bullet in the same weight will always penetrate deeper regardless of range assuming the same bullet and shot placement.
#2 In this case the difference in 3/100" bullet diameter is about the same as your fingernail. Not enough to matter.
# 3 Even if you compare a 200 gr 30-06 at 2650 fps MV to a 200 gr 338-06 at 2800 fps MV, nobody shoots stuff at the muzzle. At only 100 yards the 30-06 has almost caught up to the 338-06. By 200 yards it has equaled 338-06, beyond 200 yards the 30-06 beats it in every way. While both have more than enough punch to get the job done at close range the 200 gr 30-06 has almost 200 ft lbs more energy at 400, plus the ability to penetrate deeper. And since the 30-06 started the same bullet weight 150 fps slower recoil will be considerably less.
#4 If you compare 338-06 to 300 WM both shooting 200 gr bullets to the same speed the 300 wins in every category at the muzzle; and the gap only gets wider as range increases. And since you're shooting the same bullet weights to the same speed the 338-06 will recoil virtually the same as 300 WM. If I have to deal with the same recoil anyway then I might as well get the advantages of 300 WM.
Not to say the 338-06 won't work it obviously will. But it doesn't offer a single advantage over 30-06, we're splitting hairs regardless. And when you consider that there are people killing elk at 1/2 mile with 243's it seems pretty pointless to argue about 338-06 vs 30-06.
JMR -- You are absolutely correct AS was W C H.
Originally Posted by WyoCoyoteHunter
Baldhunter your comparison of the 338-06 with a 200 gr. AB to a .300 WM with a 200 gr. AB is a faulty comparison.. For the comparison to be equal or even close, you should use the speeds of a .30 cal 150 gr. AB to compare to the 200 AB in .338.. It is no great trick to get 3400fps out of a 150 in a .300 WM.. Or you should use at least a 250 gr. 338 AB and compare that to a 200 gr, 30 cal.. Things that look good on paper are not always what they seem..
Comparing bullet 'weights' is Apples vs Oranges in diff "calibers" <correct usage>
In our world today we read often....
"Energy don't mean anything " and
"Sectional Density" don't mean anything ".
The ONLY thing that matters to too many is B C, and BC certainly has merit.
SO DOES Sectional Density. IF NOTHING else sectional density expresses the proportional likeness/difference between bullets -- of the same OR different 'calibers'.
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![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/d3wcq09y/200-338.jpg)
