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I heard a report the day it happened that said witnesses had seen it spiraling out of control before it hit the mountain, as if there was a tail rotor problem.


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Originally Posted by Snyper
I heard a report the day it happened that said witnesses had seen it spiraling out of control before it hit the mountain, as if there was a tail rotor problem.


I made a post regarding that. It was reported to me, and some friends sent a video that their employee reportedly sent them just after it happened (he was very close by working on a roof in Calabasas that day), and claimed to our friends (owners of the company) that he just took the video of the crash, and was leaving to meet up with the police.

Seemed legit, but after I watched the video a couple times, the though cropped in my head "why is a girl up on the roof with them screaming"? Then looking closer, terrain looked somewhat plausible knowing the area and accounting for possible camera zoom distortion of terrain, but it did not match the scene as being shown on the news. And....lack of fog that was heavy that morning in the video. Couldn't see great detail on the phone, but once I saw it online, it was easier to tell it was bullchit.

Turns out it was the same video posted to Live Leak, which was posted to youtube over a year ago.

No response from friend today as to WTF that was all about.

Apologies for bad info. These folks are not the type to play sick jokes, but without explanation, not sure what to think. Have known them for over 20 years, and had no reason to think it would be anything other than what they claimed. Very strange.


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Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
I imagine the pilot made a "business decision" that went bad. .


Reckon you're right about that. By my definition a pilot that makes "business decisions" ain't competent. A pilot's job is to complete the mission....every time. Nothing more or less. If the "tees" can't be crossed and the "eyes" dotted, it's a good day to head to the bar.

Had the pleasure (?) of telling a 1 star general "F-U....sir." one day out in the A Shau in response to his order to resume a mission wherein he had violated communication protocols 3 times, thus endangering me and the crew. He broke out of the mission pack and went home. Never heard another word about it because I was justified, if not polite. Also had a couple of occasions to cancel flights in the corporate world that frustrated the boss a fair bit. He's still alive today to bitch about it.

The term(s) "Pilot In Command" (PIC) and/or "Aircraft Commander" (AC) mean just that. If you wear them, act like it. You're God, the whole deal rests on your shoulders. If one insists upon telling the PIC what to do and he/she accepts that in circumstances where flight safety is on the table, you're both stupid.

Pilot rap.......

I got your RMI and your ILS
We fly in the sky, nekkid or dressed
Wherever you want, all day long
Until you scare me, then suck my schlong


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By my definition a pilot that makes "business decisions" ain't competent. . . If one insists upon telling the PIC what to do and he/she accepts that in circumstances where flight safety is on the table, you're both stupid.



Can't disagree with your sentiment. There's two types of competency . . . . "stick" competency and "headwork" competency. Seems the mishap pilot was a CFI and ATP so he had the stick part down. Seems he failed the headwork part, by succumbing to "an offer he couldn't refuse."


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Originally Posted by DigitalDan
Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
I imagine the pilot made a "business decision" that went bad. .


Reckon you're right about that. By my definition a pilot that makes "business decisions" ain't competent. A pilot's job is to complete the mission....every time. Nothing more or less. If the "tees" can't be crossed and the "eyes" dotted, it's a good day to head to the bar.

Had the pleasure (?) of telling a 1 star general "F-U....sir." one day out in the A Shau in response to his order to resume a mission wherein he had violated communication protocols 3 times, thus endangering me and the crew. He broke out of the mission pack and went home. Never heard another word about it because I was justified, if not polite. Also had a couple of occasions to cancel flights in the corporate world that frustrated the boss a fair bit. He's still alive today to bitch about it.

The term(s) "Pilot In Command" (PIC) and/or "Aircraft Commander" (AC) mean just that. If you wear them, act like it. You're God, the whole deal rests on your shoulders. If one insists upon telling the PIC what to do and he/she accepts that in circumstances where flight safety is on the table, you're both stupid.

Pilot rap.......

I got your RMI and your ILS
We fly in the sky, nekkid or dressed
Wherever you want, all day long
Until you scare me, then suck my schlong


Dan
Commercial Rotorcraft, single rotor, CFI, CFII
Airplane SEL, ATP MEL, CFI, CFII

PS: I'm a better pilot than poet.


Exactly right...

My AC was always the rank of a captain. Our airborne battle staff commanders were always a colonel (captain if he was navy). While the commander always expressed his wishes to me if we diverted or were working out of an AOB I followed my AC's lead.

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Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
Quote
By my definition a pilot that makes "business decisions" ain't competent. . . If one insists upon telling the PIC what to do and he/she accepts that in circumstances where flight safety is on the table, you're both stupid.



Can't disagree with your sentiment. There's two types of comentency . . . . "stick" competency and "headwork" competency. Seems the mishap pilot was a CFI and ATP so he had the stick part down. Seems he failed the headwork part, by succumbing to "an offer he couldn't refuse."

That's pretty much what my brother said. He has 22K+ hours and is a retired Delta captain. He started as an Army WO with 7000 rotary hours. He liked flying for the airlines and the military because they had rules. The few short periods when he flew corporate because of furloughs he hated. Important people think they know everything and if you don't have a backbone to stand up to them, they can get you killed.

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One of those "business decisions" took the lives of Richie Valens, "The big Bopper" and Buddy Holley. That crash was the inspiration for the song "American Pie". I believe Patsy Cline was another victim of flying when they should have been riding on the ground.
Jerry


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"“I had to figure out a way where I could still train and focus on the craft but still not compromise family time," he explained.

“And so that’s when I looked into helicopters, to be able to get down and back in 15 minutes. And that’s when it started,” he said.

He said he would fly back to Orange County after practice in time to “get back in carpool line” and pick his kids up."


start @ 36 minute mark


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TV news reporting they were climbing/climbed to 2400 prior to ‘plummeting ‘ @184 mph ( last reported speed).

This doesn’t fit the the description by the witness on the ground (by a church?) who described low and slow prior to impact.


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My first assumption in looking at the pics and videos of the wreckage and the scattered debris field, is that this was not a low speed impact. The witnesses on the ground that I saw on TV did not see the chopper (due to heavy fog) but only heard the chopper.

Hopefully no one on board realized what was going on before impact, therefore eliminating a few short seconds of pure horror and an instantaneous no pain death upon impact.


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You can't fully believe the news reports in a situation like this. The investigators will get to the bottom of the root cause of the crash. However, based on the video of the eyewitness who claimed the helicopter sounded like he was flying low and slow in the clouds, I could envision the pilot trying to gently descend and see if he could break out and land somewhere. He would have a radar altimeter that would tell him his altitude above the ground. However, he would also know he was flying in the vicinity of alot of tall hills or mountains. This is an emergency situation. Perhaps there will be some recorded radio communications that will shed light on the situation. A pilot is taught to fly the aircraft first, and talk second, so he may not have said anything he was so busy concentrating on flying the aircraft. Unless the helicopter was equipped with an automatic flight/hover control, this would be extremely difficult to accomplish. It could be vertigo inducing. I could envision the pilot then making the decision to climb and gain airspeed to break out on top of the layer, assuming there was a layer, and if radar showed him at 2400 feet, and an airspeed of 160 kts, he may have eventually succumbed to vertigo and lost control of level flight. Vertigo is a big killer of pilots. It is a condition of the inner ear that sends false sensations that conflict with what your instruments are telling you. From 2400 feet he would have plenty of altitude to go into a nose down dive that could quickly reach 160 knots. Everything will just be guess work and conjecture until the mishap report comes out about a year from now. In the meantime, the lawyers for the victim's families will be line up to get a piece of the action.


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How long before the families of the other six passengers get the lawyers involved?



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until the mishap report comes out about a year from now.

preliminary in 6 months, final in about 12


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Originally Posted by ironbender
TV news reporting they were climbing/climbed to 2400 prior to ‘plummeting ‘ @184 mph ( last reported speed).

This doesn’t fit the the description by the witness on the ground (by a church?) who described low and slow prior to impact.

there was a lot going on in the last 30-60 seconds of the flight, and i think when everything is considered the witness's account won't be all that far off the mark


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Originally Posted by bigsqueeze
My first assumption in looking at the pics and videos of the wreckage and the scattered debris field, is that this was not a low speed impact. The witnesses on the ground that I saw on TV did not see the chopper (due to heavy fog) but only heard the chopper.


The wreckage was scattered over an area spanning a couple of hundred yards - that is very typical of a chopper that impacts at low speed, resulting in the rotors coming off first and then the rest of the aircraft breaking up as it gets whipped around with parts of it rolling downhill. If it impacted @184 mph (faster than the max safe speed of that helo) it would be one dark burnt spot on the side of the hill with most pieces in relatively close vicinity.

Furthermore, one witness describes seeing the helo, but barely - just a dark blob moving slowly in and out of the clouds at a speed that he estimated as around 5 mph. He said he then heard several "popping" sounds that he initially thought was someone shooting a pistol. I'll bet what he heard were the rotor blades being obliterated when the helo got to close to the hillside.

Here's the interview with the eyewitness: I believe his story.
https://youtu.be/oRAPZhqXvqY

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Originally Posted by ironbender
TV news reporting they were climbing/climbed to 2400 prior to ‘plummeting ‘ @184 mph ( last reported speed).

This doesn’t fit the the description by the witness on the ground (by a church?) who described low and slow prior to impact.

If the helicopter was flying directly toward or away from witnesses at a low angle it would look very slow, obviously.


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I'm a commercial rated helicopter pilot (retired now) with 5000 hours as pilot in command. Mostly police patrol, but some corporate flying too. Sometimes, listening to the boss back at the airport, or the millionaire in the back seat instead of following your own knowledge and expertise will result in a catastrophe. Same thing happened to Stevie Ray Vaughan.

Ron


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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by ironbender
TV news reporting they were climbing/climbed to 2400 prior to ‘plummeting ‘ @184 mph ( last reported speed).

This doesn’t fit the the description by the witness on the ground (by a church?) who described low and slow prior to impact.

If the helicopter was flying directly toward or away from witnesses at a low angle it would look very slow, obviously.

I get that, but the witness I saw interviewed heard the helo making a low slow left turn 30 or so seconds prior to impact. He did not make a visual. He said he was an audio engineer IIRC so should understand sound propagation.

The other radar video showing the flight following seemed to indicate they were low also.


Last edited by ironbender; 01/28/20.

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Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Here's the interview with the eyewitness: I believe his story.
https://youtu.be/oRAPZhqXvqY
Sounds like Jerry there was with TWA hat man from the other interview.


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Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Originally Posted by bigsqueeze
My first assumption in looking at the pics and videos of the wreckage and the scattered debris field, is that this was not a low speed impact. The witnesses on the ground that I saw on TV did not see the chopper (due to heavy fog) but only heard the chopper.


The wreckage was scattered over an area spanning a couple of hundred yards - that is very typical of a chopper that impacts at low speed, resulting in the rotors coming off first and then the rest of the aircraft breaking up as it gets whipped around with parts of it rolling downhill. If it impacted @184 mph (faster than the max safe speed of that helo) it would be one dark burnt spot on the side of the hill with most pieces in relatively close vicinity.

Furthermore, one witness describes seeing the helo, but barely - just a dark blob moving slowly in and out of the clouds at a speed that he estimated as around 5 mph. He said he then heard several "popping" sounds that he initially thought was someone shooting a pistol. I'll bet what he heard were the rotor blades being obliterated when the helo got to close to the hillside.

Here's the interview with the eyewitness: I believe his story.
https://youtu.be/oRAPZhqXvqY
...............................Yep. I saw that too. The NTSB final report as to all of the many variables causing this crash will be the final say so. The area of the debris field is also determined by the angle of impact. I am sure that they will use computer software technology to re-enact the accident.....


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