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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,205
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,205 |
I keep a pretty good eye on my tires. Vehicles with four tires I rotate them when I think they need it. No set time or mileage. On my duallys I never rotate the tires. Replace the fronts when they need it and the same with the rears. Being work trucks I usually don't even have matching tread designs front to rear.
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 858
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 858 |
Never rotate them. If properly balanced and aligned from the start, with air maintained, they don't need it. Necessary tire rotation to keep even wear is an indicator that something is out of kilter in your system. Better to fix the system than rotate the tires.
AND for those saying to keep the best-treaded tires on the front of a vehicle, it has been proven numerous times on track tests with wet, dry, ice, and snow that the best traction should always be on the rear tires for both front- and rear-wheel drive vehicles.
There is truth in this. Getting a good alignment job can be difficult. The fast-paced, high volume tire stores don't usually have a very well trained alignment specialist; and a lot of lightweight vehicles get bent out of shape enough that alignment can't be done without frame tweaking and parts replacement. They don't have time for it...so they call it good and tell you to come back for more rotations. If they are honest, they will have you take it to an alignment specialty shop. Many trucks have suspension systems that shift your wheels in and out of alignment as a normal part of absorbing bumps and turning corners, so they get equipped with long-wearing hard rubber tires to compensate. The only way to get halfway decent life out of them is to rotate frequently.
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,879
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,879 |
Do you guys not keep maintenance records with date/mileage? I do for all repairs and parts replaced, but I don't worry about writing down oil changes. I change the oil and put a new sticker in the windshield, and with rotating tires every oil change I don't have to worry about remembering if it's due or not.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,423
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,423 |
Never rotate them. If properly balanced and aligned from the start, with air maintained, they don't need it. Necessary tire rotation to keep even wear is an indicator that something is out of kilter in your system. Better to fix the system than rotate the tires.
AND for those saying to keep the best-treaded tires on the front of a vehicle, it has been proven numerous times on track tests with wet, dry, ice, and snow that the best traction should always be on the rear tires for both front- and rear-wheel drive vehicles. Not sure I buy that. Depending on the vehicle, tires will have different forces applied to them, even with perfect alignment. Take a 2WD pickup. Front double-wishbone suspension plus turning force. Rear live axle and motive forces. Have my own hoist so it's no big deal. Man, that would be awesome. The concrete ain't as soft as it used to be. Amen on both counts!
Regards,
deadlift_dude “The very first essential for success is a perpetually constant and regular employment of violence.” ----Fred Rogers
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,522
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,522 |
10K for me
now the tire store tells me I should have the best tread on the back, not the front for front wheel drive.
I disagree regardlesss of what the experts say. I want the good tires on the front, not because of front wheel drive, but because, if there's a blowout, I do Not want to lose the ability to steer off the road safely. A rear blowout doesn't amount to much, but up front, it's a serious safety thing. We (wife and I) get out tires rotated every oil change (5000 miles). Granting that tires rarely blow out these days, I still lean towards safety if possible. Why chance it?
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,557
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,557 |
Haven’t read trough this whole thread so I do t know if some mentioned this already but the Germans don’t do it at all. They think it’s non-sense and they have some of the strictest automotive safety inspection laws.
Having said that, I think it does have its benefits. . .
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,785
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,785 |
Haven’t read trough this whole thread so I do t know if some mentioned this already but the Germans don’t do it at all. They think it’s non-sense and they have some of the strictest automotive safety inspection laws.
Having said that, I think it does have its benefits. . . Technically not true. In Germany you are required by law to install snow tires on your car during the winter months. Whether the tires get rotated or not is probably an individual issue. I know my father in law keeps track and rotates. Have you never seen a poorly maintained vehicle with tons of gray brake dust imbedded in the front wheels? I can virtually guarantee you will find front tires ground down to the nubbin' on such a car/ truck. That is someone who never rotates their tires, and I doubt they can claim great distances from a set of tires.
"I didn't realize we had so many snipers in this country." by J23
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,557
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,557 |
Haven’t read trough this whole thread so I do t know if some mentioned this already but the Germans don’t do it at all. They think it’s non-sense and they have some of the strictest automotive safety inspection laws.
Having said that, I think it does have its benefits. . . Technically not true. In Germany you are required by law to install snow tires on your car during the winter months. Whether the tires get rotated or not is probably an individual issue. I know my father in law keeps track and rotates. Have you never seen a poorly maintained vehicle with tons of gray brake dust imbedded in the front wheels? I can virtually guarantee you will find front tires ground down to the nubbin' on such a car/ truck. That is someone who never rotates their tires, and I doubt they can claim great distances from a set of tires. Re read my post. I said I do think it has benefits. And having to put snow tires on is not the same thing as what we’re discussing. I lived in Germany for three years.
Last edited by Dryfly24; 02/06/20.
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Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,795
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,795 |
I'm trying to figure out a way to serialize individual tires. I like to measure the tread depth and know which tire has repairs done to it. It is amazing how slow tires wear in the last 1/4 of their life. My measurement system has a bad RR. I would like to improve the process by knowing which tire I'm measuring and the location on the tire. If the data improved I could adjust the rotation lengths to improves tire wear balance.
Last edited by MM879; 02/06/20.
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,557
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,557 |
I'm trying to figure out a way to serialize individual tires. I like to measure the tread depth and know which tire has repairs done to it. It is amazing how slow tires wear in the last 1/4 of their life. My measurement system has a bad RR. I would like to improve the process by knowing which tire I'm measuring and the location on the tire. If the data improved I could adjust the rotation lengths to improves tire wear balance. Color code or number with a paint marker on the sidewall facing inwards?
Last edited by Dryfly24; 02/06/20.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,078
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,078 |
10K for me
now the tire store tells me I should have the best tread on the back, not the front for front wheel drive.
I disagree regardlesss of what the experts say. I want the good tires on the front, not because of front wheel drive, but because, if there's a blowout, I do Not want to lose the ability to steer off the road safely. A rear blowout doesn't amount to much, but up front, it's a serious safety thing. We (wife and I) get out tires rotated every oil change (5000 miles). Granting that tires rarely blow out these days, I still lean towards safety if possible. Why chance it? If you're leaning towards safety, then they should be on the rear. It's easier to control the front when it goes haywire than it is the back.
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,785
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,785 |
Haven’t read trough this whole thread so I do t know if some mentioned this already but the Germans don’t do it at all. They think it’s non-sense and they have some of the strictest automotive safety inspection laws.
Having said that, I think it does have its benefits. . . Technically not true. In Germany you are required by law to install snow tires on your car during the winter months. Whether the tires get rotated or not is probably an individual issue. I know my father in law keeps track and rotates. Have you never seen a poorly maintained vehicle with tons of gray brake dust imbedded in the front wheels? I can virtually guarantee you will find front tires ground down to the nubbin' on such a car/ truck. That is someone who never rotates their tires, and I doubt they can claim great distances from a set of tires. Re read my post. I said I do think it has benefits. And having to put snow tires on is not the same thing as what we’re discussing. I lived in Germany for three years. Thank you for helping me clarify. I was responding to this portion of your post: "...the Germans don’t do it at all." This strict statement of yours is what I was referring to. And, as I posted, "Whether the tires get rotated or not is probably an individual issue." No strict statement bringing a whole nation into alignment with your singular experience. I see your 3 years in Germany and raise you 2 more. I have a German spouse, German in-laws, German children, even a German registered GSD. Shall I post the TUV requirements auf Deutsch? Would that help the veracity of what I wrote?
"I didn't realize we had so many snipers in this country." by J23
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,557
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,557 |
Haven’t read trough this whole thread so I do t know if some mentioned this already but the Germans don’t do it at all. They think it’s non-sense and they have some of the strictest automotive safety inspection laws.
Having said that, I think it does have its benefits. . . Technically not true. In Germany you are required by law to install snow tires on your car during the winter months. Whether the tires get rotated or not is probably an individual issue. I know my father in law keeps track and rotates. Have you never seen a poorly maintained vehicle with tons of gray brake dust imbedded in the front wheels? I can virtually guarantee you will find front tires ground down to the nubbin' on such a car/ truck. That is someone who never rotates their tires, and I doubt they can claim great distances from a set of tires. Re read my post. I said I do think it has benefits. And having to put snow tires on is not the same thing as what we’re discussing. I lived in Germany for three years. Thank you for helping me clarify. I was responding to this portion of your post: "...the Germans don’t do it at all." This strict statement of yours is what I was referring to. And, as I posted, "Whether the tires get rotated or not is probably an individual issue." No strict statement bringing a whole nation into alignment with your singular experience. I see your 3 years in Germany and raise you 2 more. I have a German spouse, German in-laws, German children, even a German registered GSD. Shall I post the TUV requirements auf Deutsch? Would that help the veracity of what I wrote? Triggered much?
Last edited by Dryfly24; 02/06/20.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,134
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,134 |
10K is fine for most car tires. If you have a 4X4 vehicle with more aggressive AT or mud tires much more often. The more aggressive the tread the more often you need to rotate. I rotate the tires on my 4X4 trucks every oil change. Never rotate them. If properly balanced and aligned from the start, with air maintained, they don't need it. Necessary tire rotation to keep even wear is an indicator that something is out of kilter in your system. Better to fix the system than rotate the tires. Completely false. The front tires do the steering and on an unloaded vehicle support much more weight than the rear. They will not only wear sooner, but the outside edges will wear due to cornering, having them always turn in the same direction also causes wear patterns to develop.. On trucks that regularly haul stuff the rear tires will have more weight on them. Not only that but a proper rotation also alternates the direction the tires turn. None of that has anything to do with proper alignment or balance. On a front wheel drive car there is an argument to be made to never rotate and just let the front tires wear out faster and replace them when they wear out. You'll get much longer wear on the 2 on the rear since they are never on the front. I can see that argument on trucks with dual rear wheels too. But on 'all-wheel-drive' vehicles they really must be rotated every so often to prevent abnormal wear/failure on the drive system.. Do you guys not keep maintenance records with date/mileage? I do - I use the "trip-2" area on the odometer to record miles since oil change.. Same thing for the bikes..
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69 Pro-Constitution. LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,097
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,097 |
Work vehicle - 2 year leases and I don't give two Schiffs about tire wear.
Personal (paid off) vehicle, every 10K miles.
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,796
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,796 |
Do you guys not keep maintenance records with date/mileage? I do - I use the "trip-2" area on the odometer to record miles since oil change.. Same thing for the bikes.. That's a really good idea - I've never used trip 2 for anything before. I'm a spreadsheet nerd so everything goes in there. I even keep note of which tyres have puncture repairs - get some odd statistics that some tyres are unluckier than others.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,536
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,536 |
All of this is great information. But what brand of tires should I buy to rotate ?
We pray our sights be straight and our aim be true We pray for no pain to the game we pursue We thank you Lord for this land We thank you for the sights from our stands We pray for safety, one and all We pray we may return next fall
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,137
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,137 |
Do you guys not keep maintenance records with date/mileage? I do - I use the "trip-2" area on the odometer to record miles since oil change.. Same thing for the bikes.. That's a really good idea - I've never used trip 2 for anything before. I'm a spreadsheet nerd so everything goes in there. I even keep note of which tyres have puncture repairs - get some odd statistics that some tyres are unluckier than others. Me too! I keep an EXCEL file for each vehicle with date, mileage, description of the event, invoice number, and cost. I also keep a routine maintenance file to help me keep up with oil changes, tire rotations, and air filter changes for all of the vehicles.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884 |
With never-rotation on minivans, half-ton pickups, and 1-ton farm trucks, I've never gotten less than 50k from any tire, and usually get toward 70k.
I'm not sure what kind of driving you guys do to wear your tires down unevenly, but like I said, your system is out-of-alignment.
In the case of front tires having varying wear patterns from turning or loading, that would naturally balance out over time across the face of the tire UNLESS something is out of kilter in your system. Turning left under load would wear one side, turning right would wear the other side, etc.
I never move tires from front to rear. Two tires get replaced at a time when they are worn down to where they have less tread than I would desire for traction purposes.
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Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,795
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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With never-rotation on minivans, half-ton pickups, and 1-ton farm trucks, I've never gotten less than 50k from any tire, and usually get toward 70k.
I'm not sure what kind of driving you guys do to wear your tires down unevenly, but like I said, your system is out-of-alignment.
In the case of front tires having varying wear patterns from turning or loading, that would naturally balance out over time across the face of the tire UNLESS something is out of kilter in your system. Turning left under load would wear one side, turning right would wear the other side, etc.
I never move tires from front to rear. Two tires get replaced at a time when they are worn down to where they have less tread than I would desire for traction purposes.
You need to consider the camber of the road surface. Most vehicles have a cross camber adjustment to compensate for the road camber.
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