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Originally Posted by goodnews
atkinson-

I've never owned or used a 458 Win or hunted in hot climates with any big bore or taken a buff although I do hope to rectify that.

While those here who've used the 458 W with good results have experience that cannot be denied, Terry Wieland's book, DANGEROUS GAME RIFLES, pretty much sums up the 458 W and it's past as you've described. He claims that many loads with a 500-gr bullet barely reached 1900 fps from a "standard length" barrel when it first came out. Obviously, the 458 has improved with more and different powders according to its proponents here.

It's an interesting discussion but why I am having a Lott built instead.

Gdv


If you or Terry Wieland is claiming that a 45 cal.500 grain bullet at 1900 FPS is not effective then I have serious doubts about about anyhting else that is said....... [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]



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I did not say that nor did I say he stated that.

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First, lets look at some real first hand experience with the mythically troubled 458wm and Winchester factory 500gr solid ammo. Just two fellows in Zimbabwe killed nearly 10,000 elephant between them with the 458wm and neither ever had an issue. The two, Ron Thompson and Richard Harlan are both still alive. They didn't enjoy the substantial increase in performance available from today's powders, but Harlan clocked his old Winchester rounds at 2050fps on an Ohler.

Then we have Ray's stories. Hmmmm...

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I have only owned one 458 Mag and that was when I lived in Alsaka. the rifle was a Interarms Whitworth and it gave me 2110 fps with 500 grain bullets and IMR-4895..... [Linked Image]



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JPK

You'll note I didn't say that it wasn't effective nor that it hasn't been used successfully throughout it's history. I am not arguing against the 458 W.; I am merely telling you what Wieland wrote in his book and what has been repeated often times before. I'm not even arguing the validity of what has been written, just stating that what atkinson stated has been "commonly reported"; whether urban myth or not.

I can say that it influenced me to build mine a Lott. But note that I also stated that "while those here who have used the 458 W. effectively have experience that cannot be denied" immediately after I stated I have no experience with it.

I have to admit that 10k ele's certainly should be statistically significant but it does not necessarily completely rule out design flaws. And again, I'm not saying it has them but this is about discussing rationally the merits of a cartridge and its "growth" over time with new and better components as implied in the thread's title against this "history" of failing - according to some - to be what it was advertised to be at its inception.

I enjoy this gentlemen because of what I learn here.

Gdv


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There is no denying the fact that some of the older 458 Win ammo gave erratic performances due to a combination of age, compression and heat. But to be fair one must also realize that original Kynoch loads also fail to reach anywhere near their advertised velocities. Ross Seyfried tested original Kynoch 450/400 loads and was suprised when they barely reached 1900fps - but it still has a good reputation. Every original Kynoch load that I have ever tested, as well as those results published by a few astute Aftican gun loonies, give real world ballistics between 2000 to 2100fps (rather than the advertised 2300-2400fps) and this has been proven over and over to be all that is needed. Even Jack Lott was only looking to acheive these velocities.
With modern powders it is easy to duplicate - and surpass- these ballistics with the 458, with no compression or pressure problems.
If you want more velocity - for whatever reason - and can afford the price - then go ahead and buy a bigger round. But don't discout the experiences of Harry Selby ( when he traded in his 416 Rigby he bought a 458 Win ) , Don Heath, Charlie Haley, Richard Harlan or Finn Aagaard and expect me to believe the round is ineffective and can't safely reach 2100fps with 500 grain bullets.


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To my mind the biggest argument in favor of the 458 Win is that it doesn't require a massive action in order to work properly. This means it can be made up into a lighter, slicker rifle that is easier to carry and that will make for a shooter who is less fatigued and quicker to the shot when the shot presents itself. If you're going big why not go all the way? If 150fps with a 500gr bullet is enough for you to want to lug around an extra pound of rifle, why not go with the 505 Gibbs? No compaction problems there... grin

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Originally Posted by 458Win
There is no denying the fact that some of the older 458 Win ammo gave erratic performances due to a combination of age, compression and heat. But to be fair one must also realize that original Kynoch loads also fail to reach anywhere near their advertised velocities. Ross Seyfried tested original Kynoch 450/400 loads and was suprised when they barely reached 1900fps - but it still has a good reputation. Every original Kynoch load that I have ever tested, as well as those results published by a few astute Aftican gun loonies, give real world ballistics between 2000 to 2100fps (rather than the advertised 2300-2400fps) and this has been proven over and over to be all that is needed. Even Jack Lott was only looking to acheive these velocities.
With modern powders it is easy to duplicate - and surpass- these ballistics with the 458, with no compression or pressure problems.
If you want more velocity - for whatever reason - and can afford the price - then go ahead and buy a bigger round. But don't discout the experiences of Harry Selby ( when he traded in his 416 Rigby he bought a 458 Win ) , Don Heath, Charlie Haley, Richard Harlan or Finn Aagaard and expect me to believe the round is ineffective and can't safely reach 2100fps with 500 grain bullets.


Precisely.... [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

The Picture below is of a Bison that I took with a 500 Linebaugh with a 525 grain WFLN hard cast bullet at 1120 fps and the bullet went completely through and exited the animal.If the 500 grain out of the 458 only got 1900 fps nothing is going to walk away from that.....
[Linked Image]



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Quote
But don't discout the experiences of Harry Selby ( when he traded in his 416 Rigby he bought a 458 Win ) , Don Heath, Charlie Haley, Richard Harlan or Finn Aagaard and expect me to believe the round is ineffective and can't safely reach 2100fps with 500 grain bullets.


Nope, and thought I'd made it clear I'm not. As to your and other's success with the 458 W, the lawyers are want to say, "res ipsa loquitor", or "the thing speaks for itself".

This is not an argument on my part.

Gdv

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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by 458Win
There is no denying the fact that some of the older 458 Win ammo gave erratic performances due to a combination of age, compression and heat. But to be fair one must also realize that original Kynoch loads also fail to reach anywhere near their advertised velocities. Ross Seyfried tested original Kynoch 450/400 loads and was suprised when they barely reached 1900fps - but it still has a good reputation. Every original Kynoch load that I have ever tested, as well as those results published by a few astute Aftican gun loonies, give real world ballistics between 2000 to 2100fps (rather than the advertised 2300-2400fps) and this has been proven over and over to be all that is needed. Even Jack Lott was only looking to acheive these velocities.
With modern powders it is easy to duplicate - and surpass- these ballistics with the 458, with no compression or pressure problems.
If you want more velocity - for whatever reason - and can afford the price - then go ahead and buy a bigger round. But don't discout the experiences of Harry Selby ( when he traded in his 416 Rigby he bought a 458 Win ) , Don Heath, Charlie Haley, Richard Harlan or Finn Aagaard and expect me to believe the round is ineffective and can't safely reach 2100fps with 500 grain bullets.


Precisely.... [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

The Picture below is of a Bison that I took with a 500 Linebaugh with a 525 grain WFLN hard cast bullet at 1120 fps and the bullet went completely through and exited the animal.If the 500 grain out of the 458 only got 1900 fps nothing is going to walk away from that.....
[Linked Image]


JWP475,

Unfortunately, a .458", 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solid at 1900fps is not sufficient for reliable penetration on elephants. It is barely enough on Cape Buffalo which are in a different league bone structure wise than our American Bison. Effective, reliable performance of 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solids on elephants starts at about 2000fps, maybe 2025fps, and goes up from there.

I have killed elephants with .458" 500gr steel jacketed solids at 2050fps and at 2135fps, both work but the difference is pretty aparrent. There is only 85fps difference in the two loads, going to 1900fps is loosing 150fps from none to far from the minimum.

Interestingly, a flat nose .458" mono copper solid at 2190fps will outpenetrate the heavier solid by a huge margin.

For the elephant, the bullet must often travel three feet or more through very thick, tough skin and then sinew, muscle, solid bone, liquid filled honey comb and finally a last thin shell before reaching the brain. Might have to deal with tusk sockets and tusks too depending on the angle. On top of that, it is good insurance to be shooting a load that will still have the energy to break the spine if the brain is missed low or enough energy to concuss the ele to knock it down, especially if it is trying to kill you.

JPK

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Goodnews,

My comments are directed at Ray who is regurgitating his baloney and Weiland who is as well.

IMO, build a new rifle, build a Lott. More flexibility, same performance at lower pressure or more performance at the same pressure, shoots 550gr solids at 2150fps which is an excellent performer on elephants (so I've been told by two with first hand experience) and can still shoot 458wm, which is widely available where DG is hunted, in case yours goes missing or you run low.

On the other hand, if you find a nice second hand 458wm that fits, you will live happily ever after.

On the shorter, lighter rifle point of view, I just don't see it. The Lott is built on a 375H&H length action. It would be no difficulty to have a Lott built at, say, 9lbs. That is plenty light enough in my view, in fact too light.

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Maybe what needs to be done is looking at loads for elephants seperate from hippo, lion, rhino, and buffalo. Even at that someone will undoubtly post that one needs to be ready for anything in the jess.
I'll stick to a .458 @ 450 gr/ moving along at 2100 or so and not feel under gunned anywhere in Africa. If others are they are surely free to opt for more fire power.

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It's amazing how emotional some folks get when you have a different opinnion, I have no problem with anyone using any caliber, just making conversation and passing on what I believe, based on observation of many buffalo being shot and having shot quit a number of my own.

Having loaded the .458 to some degree, I have not found a powder that does not fill the case to compaction after a 500 gr. bullet has been seated, the Swift manual supports that finding, and all I said was the caliber benifited from being punched out to a .458 Lott, that only makes since to me. Apparantly some disagree, probably because folks that own a certain caliber seem to become very touchy when another says something negative against it, I never felt that way about a gun, only a live animal or person. Sorry if I offended anyone.

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JPK

Certainly no offense taken on my part. I'm a rank beginner here when it comes to truly big bores and know nothing other than what I've read.

It's an interesting place to learn which is why I dove in. I will never have as much experience as you or Phil or atkinson. Different experiences, opinions - all assumed valid - are what make it interesting.

Gdv

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Ray, have you used AA 2230 in the 458 ? Give it an honest try and I'll bet you will be suprised.


Phil Shoemaker
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Is AA 2230 suited to other straight walls? I'm thinking 405, 38-55 and 45-70 here?
I'm currently using Benchmark for these but considering a change to N133.
Any thoughts?

SOS


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Phill,
No, I have not tried AA2230, I will do that the next chance I get or when a .458 darkens my doorway in a trade.:) I will bow down before you if it works and beg your forgiveness over our 5 year enjoyable fued over the caliber and a certain bullet! then I will punch it out 30 thousands and make it a Lott.:) I would like to try some loads that I got out of Sweeden also, but do not have a .458 presently.

To others:

What I have found is that many of the quoted loads don't add up and I have tried them, such as: 24" barrel, Fed 215, WW

74.5 grs. of H335 chrono: at 2100 FPS 110% density
72.o grs. of IMR4895 chrono at 2120 106% density
73.0 grs. of RL-15 chrono at 2099 107% density
69.0 grs. of IMR3031 chrno at 2088 101% density

Is the above the "baloony" being referred to? It spells compaction IMO. I tried just about every load in the Swift manual, and some others in different manuals. I did not get the claimed velocitys either.

I will concede that a 450 gr. Monolithic may be the answer as one can get 2200 FPS with 66 grs of RL-7 loads that showed a density in the 90% catagory. The 450 Monolithic is probably on parr as stated with a std. 500 gr. conventional bullet, although some will argue this point, but I accept it as valid.

That concession given, I still feel the cartridge was poorly designed from the get go, as it should have been on a 3" case and none of these discussion would have ever come about..and it is a discussion that has lingered for years, not just old news, it keeps rearing its ugly head every year, where their is that much smoke, there is some degree of fire.

Note however that I have NEVER said the .458 was not a killing caliber, it is, even at 1800-1900 FPS a 500 gr. bullet is deadly. My only contention, which has been taken out of context by some overly emotional villians who don't want to feel duked over their purchase, and insist that I am whipping their baby. What I have said and do believe is the round isn't what it should have been, as Winchester was on a short magnum kick, and it worked with the .338, but fell short with the .458 IMO...

Furthermore I am open to suggestions that will change my mind, but not to blathering and insulting suggestions, only to suggested loads that clean my chronograph and have a reasonable load density, and that applies to any caliber, not just the .458.

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Ray, have you seen the ads for the new Norma PH ammo ?
Upon the recommendation of Kevin Robertson's - and other highly respected PH's. They are loading high SD bullets like the 350gr 375 H&H to what they consider to be the best velocity for dangerous game -around 2150fps. Since the 500 gr .458 bullet already has the SD they want, they are loading the Lott to an even 2100fps !!!
Just think, some day, when you are too old and stiff to rope, and your joints hurt when you have to work a long action, you will thank me for suggesting the short 458.


Phil Shoemaker
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[Quote] by LPK
JWP475,

Unfortunately, a .458", 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solid at 1900fps is not sufficient for reliable penetration on elephants. It is barely enough on Cape Buffalo which are in a different league bone structure wise than our American Bison. Effective, reliable performance of 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solids on elephants starts at about 2000fps, maybe 2025fps, and goes up from there.
[Quote]


I can not speak from experience,but a Gentleman in New Orleans,La.has killed many Bull Elephant. He has killed them with big bore rifles and with the 50 Cal. revolvers with a 450 grain steel tipped hardcast bullet.He has stated that the revolver give him adequate penetration on frontal brain shots.Based on his experience I find it hard to fathom that a 45 cal. 500 grain solid at 1900 FPS is suddenly inadequate. I am I wrong? The 500 grain is a higher SD bullet than the 50 cal. 435 grain and 650 FPS faster as well......[Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]



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Originally Posted by 458Win
There is no denying the fact that some of the older 458 Win ammo gave erratic performances due to a combination of age, compression and heat. But to be fair one must also realize that original Kynoch loads also fail to reach anywhere near their advertised velocities. Ross Seyfried tested original Kynoch 450/400 loads and was suprised when they barely reached 1900fps - but it still has a good reputation. Every original Kynoch load that I have ever tested, as well as those results published by a few astute Aftican gun loonies, give real world ballistics between 2000 to 2100fps (rather than the advertised 2300-2400fps) and this has been proven over and over to be all that is needed. Even Jack Lott was only looking to acheive these velocities.
With modern powders it is easy to duplicate - and surpass- these ballistics with the 458, with no compression or pressure problems.
If you want more velocity - for whatever reason - and can afford the price - then go ahead and buy a bigger round. But don't discout the experiences of Harry Selby ( when he traded in his 416 Rigby he bought a 458 Win ) , Don Heath, Charlie Haley, Richard Harlan or Finn Aagaard and expect me to believe the round is ineffective and can't safely reach 2100fps with 500 grain bullets.


Phil,
This is all very true. Geoff McDonald from Woodleigh told me that he had over the years, chronographed most of the original British Nitro rounds and at that time, had never seen a single one live up to factory velocity claims.

Most negative comments about cartridges, any of them, but the .458 in this case, usually come from people with little first hand experience.

I have owned several and tested several more, in climate equally as hot as anything Africa has to offer and never had a failure, but, I am not using decades old factory ammunition either.

John


When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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