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Pretty simple really the loading data in reloading guide books are designed around SAAMI spec pressures and those are based on the guns out there. As long as you have M93 & M95 Mausers being used by the public that load data won't much exceed 46,000 Cup. I wouldn't argue that with a M700 Classic your loads are capable and safe. When you look at what pressures that Norma and RWS load the 7 x 57 and 8 x57 compared to RP, WW ,& FC it sure makes you wonder, because they aren't too worried either. LOT TO DO WITH LITIGATION LAWYERS AND AMBULANCE CHASERS mostly at the corporate level. Use good brass and don't get ridiculous either. Lot of domestic carts are underloaded for the afore mentioned reasons( 6.5x55, 257 Robts. etc) Lotta folks here on the fire load the 257 Roberts way over what you find in the manuals. If you have weaker action guns and stronger ones for the same cartridge keep your loads well marked and separate. Naturally if you exceed manual recommendations ,YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN no matter who says what. MB
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,156
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,156 |
Don't claim to be an expert, but...
If you were to bring this up in the Big Game Reloading subforum rather than here in the nut house, you'd find that many of us regularly use 7mm-08 data as a guide for modern 7x57's. Alliant indicates 44 gr of RL17 for 2669 fps so you are pushing it beyond wisdom, you really should tone it down or switch powders.
But it is anything but weak, your acquaintance knows less than he thinks. First, one must understand the differences between these two Cartridges. The 7 x 57 has on average 4 grains more case capacity that the 08. The 7x57 data runs at 51K psi, the 08 runs at 61K psi. This reduced pressure in the X 57 is based solely on the fact that there are rifles out there chambered in the X 57 that cannot handle the same pressures as a modern day rifle like the 700. By using 08 (61K) data in the larger cased X 57 (51K psi) you will most likely achieve the anemic 51K pressures of the X 57. The OP is running a 700 action, totally capable of handling loads up to 65K psi. The problem with exceeding the anemic low pressure load data for use in a modern day rifle is the lack of Pressure Tested Data. But that's not the end of the world, many of us have to do the same with the 6.5 Swede, the 9.3 x 62, The 257 Roberts, even the 3006. I check the OP's load in Quickload, according to QL, it is under well 65K, just under 60K for that matter.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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[
You might inform him that Kilimanjaro Bell (aka, W. D. M. Bell) killed over 800 elephants with Mauser 7x57mm (aka, 275 Rigby) rifle and military sold, round nose 173 grain ammo. Not bad for an inadequate round.
I believe you're referring to "Karamojo" Bell, not "Kilimanjaro" Bell. There are a couple of other factoids to consider. 1. Bell was an exceptional rifle shot from the offhand position. He even dry fired continually on the way to the game. 2. Bell spent a lot of time studying elephant skulls to make good brain shots. 3. Bell was interested in making a large bag. He only shot the brain (or at least tried) because a brain-shot elephant just drops. The other elephants, in his day, would just stand around. A chest shot elephant makes a helluva racket and runs. This scares the others. 4. The brain shot is harder than a chest shot. This means there is a premium on accuracy. It is easier to shoot a low-recoiling rifle accurately. 5. Bell was the first man to bring a modern rifle into the areas he hunted. The elephants were not as wary as now. 6. You don't kill elephants by "hydrostatic shock" or tissue damage in the brain. You kill them by penetration. The sectional density of a 7mm 173 grain bullet is about the same as a .458 500 grain bullet. A solid bullet tends to hold together. 7. You don't have to make a blood trail (as in the bigger bullet or exit hole the better) with elephants. Under today's conditions, where you might get one shot at one elephant in a week of tracking, you will probably take a chest shot. If the elephant escapes wounded, you will have to pay a $10,000 trophy fee. Under today's conditions, a 7mm would be a terrible choice. Nevertheless, I have seen PHs miss entire elephants at least three times with "elephant rifles."
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
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Saami chamber psi is 51,000 for 7x57.
Remington 700 is clearly capable of handling 65,000, as in some Weatherby chamberings.
Brass is just a gasket, some might hold better than others. Necking down 8x57 Lapua could produce the best brass in the chambering.
Nothing says you can or should load it to the wall, but at equal pressures the old 7 is as capable as anything above ,below or beside it.
It can outclass a 7mm08 & comparing it to a 284 Win. or 7mm06 is fruitless. The later 2 can outpace, but only by a slim margin. Like picking the pepper out of fly chit.
That's kind of what I was thinking. OP's load, depending on brass is probably around 53K psi. He's about 3 grains away from 65K psi.
Cartridge : 7 x 57 mm Mauser (SAAMI)
Bullet : .284, 154, Hornady SST InterLock 28302
Useable Case Capaci: 51.478 grain H2O = 3.342 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.071 inch = 78.00 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-17 *T
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.02% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.2 88 44.00 2622 2352 42863 9215 99.5 1.344
-09.2 89 44.50 2651 2403 44329 9284 99.7 1.323 ! Near Maximum !
-08.2 90 45.00 2679 2455 45847 9348 99.8 1.302 ! Near Maximum !
-07.1 91 45.50 2708 2507 47420 9406 99.9 1.283 ! Near Maximum !
-06.1 92 46.00 2736 2560 49050 9459 100.0 1.263 ! Near Maximum !
-05.1 93 46.50 2764 2612 50736 9506 100.0 1.244 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.1 94 47.00 2792 2665 52492 9550 100.0 1.225 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-03.1 95 47.50 2820 2719 54309 9592 100.0 1.207 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0 96 48.00 2847 2772 56195 9634 100.0 1.189 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.0 97 48.50 2875 2826 58149 9675 100.0 1.171 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 98 49.00 2902 2880 60179 9715 100.0 1.154 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 99 49.50 2929 2934 62288 9754 100.0 1.136 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 100 50.00 2956 2988 64478 9793 100.0 1.120 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.1 101 50.50 2983 3043 66751 9831 100.0 1.103 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.1 102 51.00 3010 3098 69116 9868 100.0 1.087 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.1 103 51.50 3037 3154 71574 9903 100.0 1.071 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 3% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 3% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 98 49.00 2938 2951 64018 9581 100.0 1.126 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 3% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 98 49.00 2861 2799 56513 9866 100.0 1.183 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Outfitter
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People keep mentioning Bell and the elephants but it isn't really relevant to the way the heavy majority of people use the 7x57. This is true. The 7X57 is more than adequate for deer/pig/black bear, and some performance gains can be had in a stronger rifle. I have run into the same "weak" argument with the .30-30, hearing stuff like "Only good to 50 yards". I've killed deer past 200 yards with one, and with a typical .30-30 load, not a supercharged spitzer-bulleted load. I finally convinced one guy I hunt with a .308 Win is plenty for deer. He thought his .50-cal muzzleloader to be far superior, and had serious doubts about "that little-bitty' bullet.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Down at the club I was having a conversation with a "Book Smart" reloader. I mentioned that my one deer rifle is a 7x57 Mauser Remington 700. The response was "weak", "can do better than that.
The thing is I'm not using a book load. I'm not using a load that some developer might think could get dropped into a rolling block. I'm using 47.2 grains of R17 with a Federal 205 and 154 grain Hornady Interlock bullets. I'm running right at 2800fps with no stress on the rifle or brass. Formally I had used IMR 4350 that I built up in the same way. That nips the heels of a 280. Only one of the 11 deer I killed with that rifle went over 50 yards and that was because I hit him a bit too far back (back of one lung angled through the center of the opposite). Angles through the chest and through the shoulder I never recovered a single bullet. One, face on shot, I recovered from the front of the hip muscles. That retained 138 grains.
The difference is in reading and understanding. Knowing rifle strength, case capacity and what many people disregard, case design.I use Winchester brass and I dissected a 280 case and a 7x57 case. I found no difference in the case head of the 7x57 and the 280, but then again I didn't think I would.
Now tell me, what in the eastern United States that would not kill cleanly. Hell, I'd shoot an elk with that load. ` I think you might be able to go a bit higher than that. I read on another site where a fellow ran the 150 gr. Nosler Partition to 2900 FPS using RL17. I PM'ed him asking for details and he said he was using Winchester brass and primer and loaded 49.0 gr. RL17. His rifle was a Winchester M70 Featherweight. I worked up to 48.5 gr. Remington brass and WLR primer and got 2847 FPS with an ES of 39 FPS. Of the three shots, two were literally in the same hole and number three in perfect alignment with the other two but .50" above the group. Brass life has been good and after 6 reloadings primer pockets were still tight. Case head and pressure ring measurements were within tolerances. Primers flattened but still have rounded outside edges. FWIW, I also tried working up to that level in a custom Mauser with a very tight chamber. That rifle shows high pressures signs even on the weak factory ammo. Measurements are on the tight side but within SAAMI tolerances. That rifle is driving me sane. It is very accurate though. I still haven't tried working up with RL17 in a Ruger #1A due to time constraints and now it may be some time before I can go that route. A vehicle crash has me fairly well messed up for a while with a fractured sternum, and yes, 27 days after the accident it still hurts like hell in two ways. One is the pain from the injury which is taking its damned sweet time going away and two, the only thing the doc will allow me to shoot in a .22 LR. So far tough, I really do like the results I've gotten from RL17 in the 7x57 and it shows a lot of promise for the 30-06 as well. Paul B. RL17 has been giving horrible pressure when you get to speed in my 284. I had a bit of work done to the gun IE I had stuck cases and had the bolt timed correctly, will go back and see again. But at the moment RL17 has me a bit Leary. Regardless even in competition shooting the last 100 FPS is never needed or worth it. Instead buy what you are after with BC of a better bullet. It generally means more than speed anyway, IE bump 050 of BC means more in wind drift than 100 fps.. IIRC its been years since I ran the numbers
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Member
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I've actually SEEN deer and antelope running the numbers.
Benefits all concerned every time.
"I have always disliked the words 'authority' and 'expert' when applied to those who write about guns, shooting,and hunting. I have never set myself up as either."
Jack O'Connor
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Campfire Tracker
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7x57 isn’t weak. I haven’t used a book for anything in many years to load anything. Every rifle , brass , powder , bullet , and primer max load is unique to itself. If you actually understand how pressure makes things fail and you load progressively from low to high in small increments you’ll see the signs as you approach real useful maximum. Modern bolt actions don’t fail until well past 150,000 psi. The primer or case is going to fail long before the action is damaged in the slightest. Running it hot will ruin cases and barrels faster is all. 7x57 loaded up is plenty to kill anything with the right bullet and shot placement and is completely adequate and appropriate of anything other than brown bears here in North America. For me the right bullet is going to be a Berger in some weight for almost everything. No 7x57 me for brown bears. I want something that any angle is drt. For brown bear I want to be able to heart shoot them from behind through the hip and blow a hole out the opposite front shoulder. Being shredded to death by a bear isn’t high on the list of ways to go. Idiot intellectuals at the range abound and make me fantasize about gut shooting them and watching them die. I haven’t tried with a 7x57 because I don’t own one currently but I’d bet you could run Lapua brass in a tight chamber with CCI primers to close to 70,000 psi but the brass would be toast in one or two firings.
‘TO LEARN WHO RULES OVER YOU, SIMPLY FIND OUT WHO YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CRITICIZE’
Conspiracy theorists are the ones who see it all coming…
You are the carbon they want to eliminate !
I’m Uber Deplorable Ultra MAGA !
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Campfire Outfitter
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Talkin' rifles in Ohio or Pennsylvania is bound to draw some hilarious comments. I resemble that remark, being raised a Buckeye. There is truth there. I now hunt exclusively in KY, and let me tell you that there is a world of difference. Your general run-of-the-barbershop old fart Buckeye spent most of his life lobbing shotguns slugs at deer. What he knows about centerfire rifles comes reading Outdoor Life, 3rd hand sources or military experience. I was that way. Luckily, I had some really old-old farts around me that worshipped 30-06 Springfield, and so I did not have that bad of an education. I'm going to address this problem from that of an unedumacated Buckeye. Given something like 7X57, the first response is going to be to judge it against 30-06 or 300 WIN MAG. Ought-Six is proper deer medicine. It "kills everything on the North American Continent" . 300 WIN MAG is something magic that take care of the biggest bears, and the most distant elk. Everything else is crap that some swarmy little ferner designed to kill other little swarmy ferners and it wasn't going to kill big Germans and Americans-- for that you need at least a 30-something. From there you'll start getting stuff about how some chamberings pick up speed out past 300 yards. You get the idea. From this standpoint, a 7mm-something just isn't in the same ballpark as a 30-something. There is another aspect to this, and I saw it the first time someone brought a 260 REM to a neighbor's deer camp I was visiting. These were not Kentucky natives. These were all Buckeyes and Back-Easters. Everyone got a chance to shoot it and there really was no appreciable recoil. The reaction was one of admiration that quickly turned to loathing. That was cheating somehow. If it didn't bruise your shoulder, it wasn't going to do much to the deer. Everyone in that camp had either driven or flown to KY to get their shoulders bruised properly, and they were not going to brook any interference.
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Campfire Outfitter
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A deer will die when properly hit with a 7x57 loaded to be safe in old rifles just like a hot load. My 7x57 load is a max load of H4350 in a 7mm-08. I may be able to increase the power but why do I need to?
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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i have a single shot carbine made by riedl, who is now gone from this world. shooting 170 grain round nose, at distance, it's pretty cool as you can time the flight of the bullet, and it goes "thunk" when it hits something.
I acquired a couple boxes of kynoch i think they are 175 grain round nose bullets in 7 x57, they are labeled on the box "dangerous game bullets" I suppose made for africa use.
never loaded any of them to shoot cow turds with, i think they are kind of rare. If i find some "dangerous game" in arizona, maybe a different story.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Campfire Savant
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Campfire Savant
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People are generally stupid, I couldn't stand having to go to a gun range and listen to all the fuggery. Me neither
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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People are generally stupid, I couldn't stand having to go to a gun range and listen to all the fuggery. Me neither Yeah. You guys would have to get off the couch for that...
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Campfire Outfitter
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I think the only place you'll hear stuff funnier than what you hear at the range would have to be the sales counter. BUT, I have had an experienced life-long hunter and good friend tell me that the reason a .30-06 is so deadly is that the bullet starts tumbling wildly at about 150 yards so it just tears up anything it hits.
One day I will ask him who the hell told him that.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I think the only place you'll hear stuff funnier than what you hear at the range would have to be the sales counter. BUT, I have had an experienced life-long hunter and good friend tell me that the reason a .30-06 is so deadly is that the bullet starts tumbling wildly at about 150 yards so it just tears up anything it hits.
One day I will ask him who the hell told him that. Now that's funny.Lol!!!
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
As Bob Hagel would say"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."Good words of wisdom...............
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,090
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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RiverRider, if I may take the liberty of suggesting you find yourself a new doormat, just for your good friend.... ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/UtanSDb.jpg)
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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People are generally stupid, I couldn't stand having to go to a gun range and listen to all the fuggery. Me neither Yeah. You guys would have to get off the couch for that... I"m just glad in that all my years I"ve set foot on a public range once. I have on match days when ranges are closed to all the idiots but thats different. not as lucky as H22 here in TX, I only get to 600 yards out the back door. AK tis a bit different... public land out the door and obviously I can shoot far enough to have to call coordinates rather than wind and elevation
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I have killed a truckload of Whitetail & Axis with my 280 running 150’s @ 2800. Never thought I needed any more speed at all.
Is 2800 pushing the 7x57 to the edge of its capability with a 150? Never worked with it.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Campfire Regular
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Is this commenter one of those people who think anything less than a .300 WM will just bounce off a whitetail? There are lots of opinions on a gun range, and quite a few of them are usually pretty dumb...
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