Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters What can you do with a 280 that you cant with a 270

keith,

I'm getting very good accuracy, around .5 to .7 inch, with both 145 ELD-X's and 150 Nosler AccuBond Long Range bullets in my .270--which is not a custom rifle but a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight, the O'Connor Commemorative model. But I did not get great accuracy until after seating both bullets deeper considerably deeper, which I have found to often shrink groups with both ELDs and ABLRs in other cartridges as well. My 6.5 PRC (a 700 action with a Lilja barrel) did not shoot 129 ABLRs all that well until they were seated over .1 from the lands, whereupon it started putting 5 shots (not 3) into .5 inch.

Basically duplicated the .270 results with a Mossberg Patriot, including velocities of around 3100 with the 145 ELD and 3050 with the ABLR, using Reloder 26.

Why on Earth were you shooting a Mossberg Patriot?

OKAY - Mike you got me on that one. However I've never been a Semi Auto fan. I "owned" a 742, 30-06 for just a matter of hours. I bought it from an individual KNOWING an older friend who was looking for one. He bought it very quickly for the same $$$.
^^^^^^^^^ this was in the 80s, in another State where I was living then ^^^^^^^



That said, I knew the 742 was chambered in 243, 6mm Rem, 308, & 30-06 and I "thot" 270 also.
I "goggled" (lol) it and you are correct. My ass umption = mistake.


Jerry

No problem. I'm a 742 fan so I'm "up" on them.

Because I was an assigned an article. But I also often try rifles that most snobs would refuse to consider. Have always figured my job involved actual journalism, not just shooting certain rifles that are "correct" among some rifle loonies, whether the loonies tend to prefer "classic" or "modern." As a result, I have learned quite a bit of unexpected information.

The Mossberg also had a walnut stock that was very nicely figured. Might post a photo later.

I liked the Mossberg Patriot I had. Reason I parted with it was it was a .300 Win mag with only a 22" barrel. Recoil and muzzle blast were pretty harsh.

7 Pages now... OK time for some fun...


You can shoot a 270 cal bullet in a 280.. BUT not the other way around

John,

The reason that I chose to use Hodgdon's data was to attempt to eliminate any variation coming from loading individual rifles to different pressures. For example, the velocity you're getting with the 170 EOL from your .270 is close to what a 7RM will push a 175gr bullet at (according to some published data), despite a substantial powder capacity difference. Similarly, I've pushed the 195 EOL at 2900 fps from a 26" 7WSM, which is 200 fps faster than your 7RM load with 24" barrel. I'm also getting 2930 fps using the 180 ELD from a 24" barreled 7RM and the same velocity from a 24" barreled 7WSM, and 2970 fps from the 26" barreled 7WSM. To reduce user variation, it's easiest just to use pressure-tested data from a single source. I would also compare the 7mm 180 ELD if you're going to use the .277" 170 EOL, as both bullets about maximize BC in their respective caliber, and are effective for killing.

I listed drift at 400 meters as well as 500 in my previous post, so you can easily ignore the 500 meter drift values if you're not interested. But a couple of inches at 400 meters has still made a difference on occasion. Do I shoot big-game animals at 500 in 20-30 mph winds? Well ideally no, but there has been a couple of times that it's been required to finish the deal when batting clean up. I've also had to kill animals in similar winds from 300 yards and out, and several inches less wind drift even at 300 makes a difference. It's a matter of combining errors, similar to "tolerance stacking". There's the uncertainty in the shooter's wind call, uncertainty in the accuracy of the load, uncertainty in the stability with which they can hold a rifle in the field, uncertainty in the consistency of the wind after the call has been made, etc. A bullet that is less affected by the wind gives the shooter a larger margin of error in all these parameters, while keeping the bullet in the vitals. I know you are aware of all that, John, but it's pertinent to the discussion.

I'm not saying the difference in wind drift between the two chamberings is enormous at 300 or 400 meters, but it's big enough that I consider it useful.

Jordan,

The loads I'm using in my rifles use published data, not "Campfire-safe" limits.

Also, I should also note that a lot of manuals (I believe including Hornady's, at least until recently) have tested pressures in a more-or-less standardized pressure barrel, then shoot them for velocity in a factory or custom rifle. But even in supposedly standard pressure barrels, results can vary considerably, and Hornady rounds them off to the nearest 100 fps. (Or, occasionally, 50 fps.)

Speer used to be really bad about this, the reason that one of their fairly recent manuals (maybe the 13th?) contained an explanation with the .308 Winchester loads, about why the .308 data resulted in higher velocities than the .30-06 data. In their latest manual (and on-line data) they finally went to SAAMI-standard 24" barrels, and apparently are listing chronograph results obtained in the same barrel.

In other words, I don't totally trust many "book" velocities, even as a standardized basis--unless they're averaged from a wide variety of sources, with RECENT, electronically-tested data.

I do know that results of a couple of highly regarded computer ballistic programs (which usually agree very closely, because they're based on the same data) show that a 7mm 195-grain Berger EOL (G7 BC .387) at 2700 fps drifts only a little over an inch less at 400 yards (not 400 meters, 500 yards or 500 meters) than a .270 145-grain ELD-X at 3100 fps.

I also know that the data from various ballistic programs is pretty damn accurate, if used correctly, because our local shooting range (where Eileen and I are life members) includes a 1000-yard range with concrete benches. Since it's only a 4-minutes drive from our house, I use it a lot to not only test rifles and scopes, but the computed trajectories of various bullets. If available, I use Bryan Litz's BC's, which are derived from both shooting and form factors. But due to his work more factory-listed BC's are far more accurate, including G7's. Consequently I do not doubt the computed results.

I bought a Patriot in 6.5 CM in 2018 for one of my son's friends to use for his first deer hunt. I had planned to give it to him when he graduates from high school, but that isn't going to happen. Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised by how well it shoots. I still think that the Marlin X guns were a better entry-level cf rifle, but the Patriot has been accurate and reliable through multiple range visits and about 200 rounds fired.

I have a hard time envisioning some of your contemporaries using such a plebeian grade of firearm, let along write a positive word about one.

what happened to the kid?

John,

I assumed you were using recently published data (at least fairly recent), as am I. My point was simply that results may vary depending on which published data one uses. Like you, I also trust the models, assuming good input data, and have confirmed their accuracy myself. I used the JBM engine to generate the numbers I posted.

Here's a photo of the Mossberg Patriot .270's wood, for those who prefer traditional rifles:



Did not have to tweak the bedding at all. Just made sure the action screws were tight, and it shot very well.

He shot a small buck less than a minute after I specifically told him not to shoot it. He broke the rules and the penalty was that he would no longer be invited to hunt with my son and me. Then, when I offered him a chance to redeem himself, he chose not to accept the offer.

Jordan,

One of the problems with using Hodgdon's data is some is CUP (which obviously means old copper-crusher barrels) and some PSI, with newer piezo-electronic pressure barrels. This occurs with both the .270 and .280.

Quite a bit of newer electronic data is strain-gauge. There are disagreements even in the industry about it's accuracy.

All of which is why I prefer to use a broad range of data from various companies, which is what I do when working on an article.

Ron Spomer uses the Patriot in 7mm mag quite a bit. And his pal took the Patriot in .338 Win mag to Alaska and killed a Brown Bear.

Pretty wood.

John:

Is that the Revere model?

Yep.

We, on the campfire, have an amazing ability to get way off topic. I'll attempt to take us further. The original question, asked by 358wsm was, "What can you do with a 280 that you cant with a 270?"

It's possible that his psyche was effected by his father when he was a little boy. Could his dad have read the magazine writers previous to his birth and been amazed by the 270 stories written by John Jobson, Jack O'Connor and others? Then later believed the advertising by Winchester about a new rifle/cartridge combination of Model 100 in .284 and purchased one because the 125 grain .284 was to duplicate the 130 grain 270.

His dad would have been awed by the results of that combination on the whitetail. So amazed that he came to believe that the .284 was capable of better results on game than even the 270 or the 30 cal bullets. That would have been the beginning of his dad becoming a "rifle loonie." As 358wsm grew he may have heard glowing reports of the magnificent .284 and thus permanently planted in his psyche the desire to have one.

Now, I have more than a passing acquaintance with his dad. A peculiar fact is his dad doesn't own anything in a .284 today. He does own a .270 and believes it's probably capable of whatever the .284 would do on game.

358wsm is a knowledgeable rifle loonie and one very fine marksman. When Barsness weighed in I'll bet he had his answer technically confirmed. The real question is not, "What can you do with a 280 that you cant with a 270?," but rather "What can 358wsm do with a 280 that he cant with a 270?" The answer to that is it would satisfy his desire to have one. I tend to think of inclining steps in power 25/06, 270, 280, 30/06, 338/06, Whelen etc.