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.. you may remember when I related how God did indeed speak to me. That was all the evidence and all the proof I needed... How does a person who has never heard a God speak to them before, then verify or know for certain it was their actual God? ...Jesus walking with you? Footprints in the sand? Legit question... To be sure, Satan has his counterfeits out there. Evil spirits. There are false apostles, deceitful, workers etc out there..... 2 Corinthians 11:14 says “......And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.” Many pursue wrong ways in their desire to hear from God. The “echo chamber” of one’s own mind/desires comes to mind. But, when God speaks, or otherwise communicates it will always be in accordance with His Word.....never in conflict with it. This is often the second witness the Bible refers to. Further, John 10:27....”My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.” Also read John 10:1-5 ...... the sheep know the masters voice and will not recognize a stranger’s voice. The Creator can communicate in clear terms, in ways that are understood. See my earlier post in this thread on how God communicates. Edit to add: Post referred to is on 2/10
Last edited by TF49; 02/12/20.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Sorry, but I have to point out that the bible also says that god sends lying spirits in order to deceive. The point of this is that there are problems, ambiguities and contradictions in the bible....regardless of whether a Creator exists or not.
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A quote from scripture does not verify that every
person who claims a God spoke to them, as being
Genuine cases.
If one had 50 examples of people claiming their God
spoke, how do we determine which are the real deal?
Just accepting "I'm a sheep who knows his masters voice"
isn't really sufficient.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There is NOTHING unique in the Bible. The story of Noah is CLEARLY a punched up re-telling of the epic of Gilgamesh. Also note, that most religions have elected to re-tell this story as well. So why is The Bible's version considered "holy scripture" whereas the rest are considered myth?
The major point of Christ (virgin birth, resurrection and about a dozen other milestones) can be found in the writings of Osiris.
Then consider...
Most EVERY major advancement to to humanity came from going against the church. Dear golly, I haven't seen such a shining example of Brandolini's Law in quite some time. tinyurl links: https://tinyurl.com/bran-do-lin-ihttps://preview.tinyurl.com/bran-do-lin-iJust a couple points, for folks who are interested. 1. Noah and the flood story pre-date Gilgamesh. The "Gilgamesh rip-off" narrative has been disproved by the same textual analysis that has been used against Biblical narratives. Live by textual analysis, die by textual analysis. 2. Modernity, as we know it, would be impossible without the Church of Rome and its benevolent and nurturing attitude toward most scientific and other inquiry. Enlightenment BS and propaganda, reheated by (((folks))) with atavistic & undying hatred of competitors & swallowed by those predisposed to that propaganda, really needs to die. Some resources... The Genesis of Science: How the Christian Middle Ages Launched the Scientific Revolution James Hannam Hannam is a bit too RC triumphalist for my taste, but it is the best reading of the books on this topic. The Foundations of Modern Science in the Middle Ages: Their Religious, Institutional and Intellectual Contexts (Cambridge Studies in the History of Science) Edward Grant Content similar to Hanan, but more dry & academic. The Beginnings of Western Science: The European Scientific Tradition in Philosophical, Religious, and Institutional Context, 600 B.C. to A.D. 1450: European ... Institutional Context, 600 B.C. to A.D.1450 David C. Lindberg Grant & Lindberg blazed the trail and Hannam made the content a bit more accessible. ================ And that is about all the time I'll spend on refuting BS today. Life is for the living. For the record, I am not a big fan of the Roman church. But honest men give credit where it is due. You haven't actually refuted anything. The church resisted whatever happened to question its teachings, evolution, cosmology (Bruno burnt at the stake, torture, excommunication, etc), which is not exactly a shining example of encouraging science. Islam claims much the same thing, that Islam kept science alive during the dark ages...but the truth is that science was kept alive by inquiring minds in spite of religion, not because of it. Stop being a tool and read some of the primary sources. even in translation, when I was heathangnostic I was of the attitude, "Meh, its a fair cop." 1. Bruno was not a scientist, he was a con man who abused his position as bishop for personal gain. Repeatedly, over years & geography, staying a step ahead of secular and clerical authorities. People like that do not end well. 2. Bruno was not burned at the stake for any of his sorta-scientific ramblings on cosmology that echoed Copernicus's, he was burnt at the stake for being a bishop who taught outright heresy on the topics of theology to those entrusted to his care. Pantheism, denial of the Trinity & virgin birth, and many more such heresies are what got his goose cooked. 3. The Roman church had no doctrine WRT cosmology when Bruno got what was coming to him, so support for heliocentric cosmology was not considered heresy. 4. Bruno was such a misanthrope and a-z-z, and had burned so many former patrons, he had zero support among his fellow clerics and the noble class. So when he found himself deep in it, he had no one to speak for him. The general attitude, was, "Good riddance to bad rubbish." NB: The Galileo narrative is also less one of a "man of science horribly persecuted for scientific beliefs" and more one of "man shows his a $ $ to powerful patron and ruler...and that patron goes easy on him when anyone else engaging in lèse-majesté would have been tortured to death and his head placed on a pike as a warning to others." =============== a. Those inquiring minds just happened to be Roman Catholic or Eastern Rite Christians, most of whom were clerics during the dark Ages, Middle Ages, and Renaissance.. Clerics whose bodies, souls, and inquiries were supported by their church. Both individuals and institutions considered Natural Philosophy a calling that brought glory to God. b. The only way Islam "transmitted" the classics to the west was by way of sea or land transport from the Eastern Roman Empire (which lasted until 1453). c. Those "rediscovered" classics were never lost to those in the East and they were "rediscovered" in the west during the middle ages, a few hundred years before the "Enlightenment." d. No other institution in the West had the capability to preserve or further Natural History or science outside the church. Later on , in the East, it was similar. Some of the noble or mercantile families had the resources of & on, as did the gov't. The church was the sole institution that endured over time with the mission. e. The reality is not "science was kept alive by inquiring minds in spite of religion" but, "science--and the intellectual paradigm shifts necessary for science as we know it today--were birthed in and nurtured by the Roman Catholic Church." Without the medieval Catholic Church, modern inquiry is inconceivable. (to use an Henri Pirenne-like turn of phrase). f. We'll get to witness what happens to scientific inquiry in the absence of a strong Christian church. The night has fallen on several disciplines already. Anthropology, sociology, and biology have all, more or less, been overtaken by non-Christian zealots to the point where scientists have begun to write in code to avoid personal destruction. Again: https://tinyurl.com/bran-do-lin-ihttps://preview.tinyurl.com/bran-do-lin-iPS: "(Mathematics) is the revealer of every genuine truth ... whoever then has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start that he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom." ----Bishop Thomas Bradwardine c. 1300 – 26 August 1349 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_BradwardineThe now published sources prove to us, beyond contention, that the main kinematical properties of uniformly accelerated motions, still attributed to Galileo by the physics texts, were discovered and proved by scholars of Merton college.... In principle, the qualities of Greek physics were replaced, at least for motions, by the numerical quantities that have ruled Western science ever since. The work was quickly diffused into France, Italy, and other parts of Europe. Almost immediately, Giovanni di Casale and Nicole Oresme found how to represent the results by geometrical graphs, introducing the connection between geometry and the physical world that became a second characteristic habit of Western thought ... Are you a Young Earth Creationist as well?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Quotes from a Bishop on matters science and the role of mathematics also seems quite odd.
The picture that all of this paints is one of cherry picking not only from the bible, but many sources in an attempt to support an image of the world from a biblical perspective: creation, the fall, the need for redemption, a redeemer in Jesus, etc.
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Christian math shows that you can start with
A few fish and loaves, feed the multitude and
still have more left over than what you started
with.
Oddly enough, when it came to feeding the second
multitude, the disciples had totally forgotten the
previous miracle of feeding 5000, cause they were
at a loss of how to feed the next 4000.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Christian math shows that you can start with
A few fish and loaves, feed the multitude and
still have more left over than what you started
with. And that creation was only 6k years ago.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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jfruser: I believe Jesus is who he said he was. Are you a Roman Catholic? Was their suppression of "heresy" justified?
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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A bit about the case against Bruno;''In 2002, for example Bruno historian Leen Spruit argued: Bruno's belief in many worlds was not “formally heretical,” but was maybe “erroneous,” “scandalous,” or “blasphemous.” That was bad, but heresies were worse. But when I examined old treatises on heresies and canon law, I learned otherwise. In fact, in the 1590s Bruno’s claim was considered heretical. Many authorities denounced it, including theologians, jurists, bishops, one emperor, three popes, five Church Fathers and nine saints. In 384 A.D. the belief in many worlds was categorized as heretical by Philaster, Bishop of Brescia, in his Book on Heresies. This condemnation was echoed by subsequent authorities, including Saints Jerome, Augustine and Isidore. ''In 1597, Bruno was confronted by inquisitors, including the authoritative theologian Robert Bellarmine. Bruno “was admonished to thus abandon his delusions of diverse worlds.” Nineteen years later, Inquisitor Bellarmine would go on to confront Galileo.'' 'In at least four depositions, Bruno refused to recant, insisting: Earth is a star (an archaic term for any heavenly body), and the stars include innumerable worlds. Inquisitors then confronted Bruno: “About this reply he was interrogated in the 17th Deposition, but does not seem to satisfy, because he relapsed into the same reply.” According to inquisitorial manuals, to relapse was to be a heretic. When Bruno was executed, a witness named Gaspar Schoppe penned two letters noting Bruno’s belief in worlds four times. Schoppe used the wording in which it was categorized as a heresy in Latin: mundos esse innumerabilis. Why did Catholics view this as heretical? Theologians explained: “we cannot assert that two or many worlds exist, since neither do we assert two or many Christs.” Bruno was condemned for several heresies, but the one about multiple worlds was the strongest case against him. He didn’t defend an esoteric belief in immaterial worlds. Instead, he asserted parts of our cosmology: our acentric universe has innumerable suns, surrounded by planets, even some that may resemble our inhabited Earth.''
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So, that was a reason to hang him naked upside down and burn him alive?
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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So, that was a reason to hang him naked upside down and burn him alive? He believed the wrong things, so they killed him. He had the audacity to deny several core Catholic doctrines...theological division was heresy, punished by death.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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A quote from scripture does not verify that every
person who claims a God spoke to them, as being
Genuine cases.
If one had 50 examples of people claiming their God
spoke, how do we determine which are the real deal?
Just accepting "I'm a sheep who knows his masters voice"
isn't really sufficient.
You posted “.....a quote from scripture does not verify....”. Well of course.... that’s why I made the reference to the false witness of evil spirits. You posted “ .... 50 examples.... how do we determine which are ... real..?..”. I gave you the answer, you didn’t seem to catch it.... the ones that square with Scripture are real..... You posted ..... “ ..... knows his master’s voice isn’t really sufficient.” Again, you are totally wrong. When you hear The Creator speak, it is totally sufficient. Seems you have not recognized the call of the Creator. Don’t keep sticking your fingers in your ears.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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So, that was a reason to hang him naked upside down and burn him alive? He believed the wrong things, so they killed him. He had the audacity to deny several core Catholic doctrines...theological division was heresy, punished by death. Reckon that was a good idea to further Jesus' teachings?
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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So, that was a reason to hang him naked upside down and burn him alive? He believed the wrong things, so they killed him. He had the audacity to deny several core Catholic doctrines...theological division was heresy, punished by death. Reckon that was a good idea to further Jesus' teachings? Clearly.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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So, that was a reason to hang him naked upside down and burn him alive? He believed the wrong things, so they killed him. He had the audacity to deny several core Catholic doctrines...theological division was heresy, punished by death. Reckon that was a good idea to further Jesus' teachings? Clearly. Wasn't but a week or two ago that folks on here were advocating for going back to burning people for wrong beliefs....
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So, that was a reason to hang him naked upside down and burn him alive? He believed the wrong things, so they killed him. He had the audacity to deny several core Catholic doctrines...theological division was heresy, punished by death. Reckon that was a good idea to further Jesus' teachings? Clearly. Wasn't but a week or two ago that folks on here were advocating for going back to burning people for wrong beliefs.... lol I’m not really surprised. But I must’ve missed it.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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You posted “ .... 50 examples.... how do we determine which are ... real..?..”.
I gave you the answer, you didn’t seem to catch it.... the ones that square with Scripture are real.....
.
Scripture template is proof?
You posted .....Just accepting "I'm a sheep who knows his masters voice
isn't really sufficient”
Again, you are totally wrong. When you hear The Creator speak, it is totally sufficient.
.
People in a variety of cults will convince themselves that visions and voices are sufficient. even ancient word of mouth ones they didnt experience themselves.
Seems you have not recognized the call of the Creator.
.
or you have simply found it convenient to attribute the voices in your head to such. whats left to see now if you are like wabigoon who has a compulsion to repeatedly outwardly convince others of his faith.
Also read John 10:1-5 ...... the sheep know the masters voice and will not recognize a stranger’s voice.
The Creator can communicate in clear terms, in ways that are understood..
Peabrain sheep will respond to any capable sheep dog or shepherd, they dont make distinctions between one capable dog or shepherd from another. Your idea of a God levels you with sheep , yet christians like to elevate themselves as being something special cause they deem themselves as being part of an exclusive Pesher cult type-secret knowledge inititation process brotherhood.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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You posted “ .... 50 examples.... how do we determine which are ... real..?..”.
I gave you the answer, you didn’t seem to catch it.... the ones that square with Scripture are real.....
.
Scripture template is proof?
You posted .....Just accepting "I'm a sheep who knows his masters voice
isn't really sufficient”
Again, you are totally wrong. When you hear The Creator speak, it is totally sufficient.
.
People in a variety of cults will convince themselves that visions and voices are sufficient. even ancient word of mouth ones they didnt experience themselves.
Seems you have not recognized the call of the Creator.
.
or you have simply found it convenient to attribute the voices in your head to such. whats left to see now if you are like wabigoon who has a compulsion to repeatedly outwardly convince others of his faith.
Also read John 10:1-5 ...... the sheep know the masters voice and will not recognize a stranger’s voice.
The Creator can communicate in clear terms, in ways that are understood..
Peabrain sheep will respond to any capable sheep dog or shepherd, they dont make distinctions between one capable dog or shepherd from another. Your idea of a God levels you with sheep , yet christians like to elevate themselves as being something special cause they deem themselves as being part of an exclusive Pesher cult type-secret knowledge inititation process brotherhood. Seems like you have been..... “triggered”
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Hybrid Persian-Hellenistic mystery cults with practices
of baptism,, human blood sacrifices,communal meals,
brotherhoods and wild promises of rebirth, resurrection and an after life...
were nothing new 2000 yrs ago, several predated and ran
concurrently with the late to the party [Zoroastrian and Hellenistic influenced] Jewish offshoot sect christian versions.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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The Bible implies there were other people on earth besides Adam and Eve and sons. Cain was sent to the land of Nod where he had a wife. There must have been other people if there was a land of Nod with wives available. The Old testament is the history and lineage of the Jews. Who am I to say that a God couldn't create a man and woman to be his people.
I have seen things and happenings that make me believe in God and his son Jesus. I have seen the sick healed, I have seen cripples stand up and walk. It was done by men of faith laying hands on them and praying in Jesus name. Some were strangers but some were people that I knew for a long time. I can't explain it but I saw it. Several times. I know people who have completely transformed their lives from totally destructive to positive simply by accepting Christ. There are millions of examples. None of them are perfect people for doing it. They are still people. They have hope of something better. Hope is a good thing.
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