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That rather "robust" study is actually completely irrelevant to my statement:

"Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with". Note the words "same bullet".

That study takes into account 18 different bullets of varying weights and construction at different impact velocities. Of course those bullets will have different penetration characteristics based on construction, SD, and impact velocity and higher velocity may not equal greater penetration. It is also rather obvious that a 165 Sierra Game King (softer bullet) with an impact velocity of say 2820 will penetrate less than a 200 grain Barnes X (harder bullet) with an impact velocity of 2730.

My statement is referring to (as an example) that if a 165 Barnes TSX bullet is fired and leaves the muzzle at 2725 fps from rifle #1 and a 165 Barnes TSX bullet is fired at 3100 fps from rifle number 2 and the first bullet is travelling at 2200 fps at 305 yards and the second bullet is travelling at 2200 fps at 500 yards, the bullets are going to have the same penetration when it strikes the same type of target even though the target was at different distances.

Last edited by Mike_Dettorre; 02/08/20.

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And the charts show that the same bullet penetrates roughly equal to or MORE as it slows down. Exactly opposite what your quote implied.

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Originally Posted by prm
And the charts show that the same bullet penetrates roughly equal to or MORE as it slows down. Exactly opposite what your quote implied.


There are too many variables to draw that conclusion for all bullets and all velocities.

I shot both .308 Win and .300 Win Mag this season, both with Barnes TTSX, 130 and 165 respectively, bullets launched at about 3100 fps. Both exited, everything fell down dead. I shot a deer at about five feet with a .45 ACP 230 grain at 900 fps and the bullet did not exit - deer was very dead too. So, the slower and heavier bullet did not penetrate as much as the faster and lighter bullets. Theory disproven?

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My statement doesn't say or imply that either. The statement says "Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with." Note the words "Penetration is caused" and "how much". "Penetration is caused" does not necessarily mean "more penetration" and "how much velocity" does not necessarily mean greater velocity.

It is rather obvious that as a bullet expands and deforms it has greater resistance within the target which has a negative impact on penetration.




Last edited by Mike_Dettorre; 02/09/20.

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Originally Posted by prm
And the charts show that the same bullet penetrates roughly equal to or MORE as it slows down. Exactly opposite what your quote implied.


You're reading into his statement an awful lot. He never said or implied higher velocity equals more penetration. Only that velocity dictates penetration.

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Originally Posted by WyoCoyoteHunter
One of the guys I used to hunt with used a .308 model 100 Win... His standard method for shooting elk was shoot 2 or three times through the lungs as quickly as he could...

sounds like a good plan to me, kinda like my hunting hogs with a .223 AR.


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Two years ago, I had the opportunity to autopsy 3 Newfoundland bull moose, all shot twice, broadside through the lungs/heart. Results were nearly identical, all 6 bullets were found under the skin on the far side. All were mushroomed perfectly. All went down within a few feet of being hit with the first shot.
First moose was taken with 150 gr Partitions out of a 300 Savage at about 65 yards.
Second was taken with 180 gr Trophy Bonded out of a 300 Win Mag at approx 200 yards.
Third one also used 180 gr Trophy Bonded, but out of a 300 Weatherby, also at about 200 yards.
FWIW, this past season, I watched a Maine bull moose get hit, broadside through the liver at about 300 yards with 200 gr Partition out of a 8mm Rem Mag. He walked 15-20 ft and went down. Got complete penetration with that bullet. The liver was thoroughly destroyed.
My take away is that the only important thing is to tuck a good bullet into the right spot.


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Between the .308 and .300WM, as long as you can shoot them equally well or close to, and other factors are essentially equal as well (rifle weight, etc.), the decision for me is easy - take the bigger bang. I don't see any downside under those circumstances.

That said, a .308 Win would have sufficed for every elk I've taken. Whether all would have dropped as quickly, no one can know - but I'm confident none would have stayed on their legs much longer..

Got a .308 for Daughter #1 for her first elk rifle, shooting 130g TTSX @ 3045fps. Upgraded her to a .270 Win with 150g ABLR @ 2912fps last year. Have a shorty 16.1" barrel) .308 Win that wighs 6.25 pound sans scope and ammo and have considered taking it, but keep reaching for my 7mm RM, a .30-06, .300WM or .338WM instead.


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Originally Posted by Mike_Dettorre
My statement doesn't say or imply that either. The statement says "Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with." Note the words "Penetration is caused" and "how much". "Penetration is caused" does not necessarily mean "more penetration" and "how much velocity" does not necessarily mean greater velocity.

It is rather obvious that as a bullet expands and deforms it has greater resistance within the target which has a negative impact on penetration.




Depends on the bullet. A mono that impacts at high velocity often shears its petals off, which provides for very deep penetrqtion.

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Originally Posted by BWalker
Originally Posted by Mike_Dettorre
My statement doesn't say or imply that either. The statement says "Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with." Note the words "Penetration is caused" and "how much". "Penetration is caused" does not necessarily mean "more penetration" and "how much velocity" does not necessarily mean greater velocity.

It is rather obvious that as a bullet expands and deforms it has greater resistance within the target which has a negative impact on penetration.




Depends on the bullet. A mono that impacts at high velocity often shears its petals off, which provides for very deep penetrqtion.


"Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with."

So it doesn't depend on the bullet, unless you consider different calibers and weights, which makes it NOT the same bullet.

Same bullet, velocity rules. But higher velocity does not always mean greater penetration, as has been proven many times.


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Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by BWalker
Originally Posted by Mike_Dettorre
My statement doesn't say or imply that either. The statement says "Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with." Note the words "Penetration is caused" and "how much". "Penetration is caused" does not necessarily mean "more penetration" and "how much velocity" does not necessarily mean greater velocity.

It is rather obvious that as a bullet expands and deforms it has greater resistance within the target which has a negative impact on penetration.




Depends on the bullet. A mono that impacts at high velocity often shears its petals off, which provides for very deep penetrqtion.


"Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with."

So it doesn't depend on the bullet, unless you consider different calibers and weights, which makes it NOT the same bullet.

Same bullet, velocity rules. But higher velocity does not always mean greater penetration, as has been proven many times.

Actually it does. The fact you can't grasp this is telling.

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An elk's hide is amazingly stretchy and tough. Even with a 300 WSM and premium bullets, I've had them stopped by the hide on the far side. They do an exit from the body but the hide will stretch way out and stop it. That has no affect on killing power since the bullet has completely penetrated. It just doesn't poke another hole.


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I’ve used 30-06 180gr partition, 7mm various 150-160 grain bullets, 300 Weatherby 180gr TTSX from 11 yards to 550 yards for 15 elk. Helped with several more do not inexperienced but not the variety of some here.
If you are comfortable limiting your shots to less than 300 yards with good angles not much difference between 308 & 300 Win Mag. If you want to extend the range or take a tougher angle through bone or more chest the 300 is your better choice. My elk hunts are expensive trips with limited shot opportunities so I use a magnum with a stout bullet.

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Originally Posted by BWalker
Originally Posted by Coyote_Hunter
Originally Posted by BWalker
Originally Posted by Mike_Dettorre
My statement doesn't say or imply that either. The statement says "Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with." Note the words "Penetration is caused" and "how much". "Penetration is caused" does not necessarily mean "more penetration" and "how much velocity" does not necessarily mean greater velocity.

It is rather obvious that as a bullet expands and deforms it has greater resistance within the target which has a negative impact on penetration.




Depends on the bullet. A mono that impacts at high velocity often shears its petals off, which provides for very deep penetrqtion.


"Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with."

So it doesn't depend on the bullet, unless you consider different calibers and weights, which makes it NOT the same bullet.

Same bullet, velocity rules. But higher velocity does not always mean greater penetration, as has been proven many times.

Actually it does. The fact you can't grasp this is telling.


If you restrict my statement to monos or spitzer solids and selected FMJs, I would agree that higher velocity will generally result in greater penetration but I would not contend that is always the case.. With jacketed bullets, lower velocities will often result in higher penetration, as has been demonstrated many times.


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Again, that depends. What is a fact, is you dont have a clue.

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Originally Posted by BWalker
Again, that depends. What is a fact, is you dont have a clue.


I'm not 100% sure I'm understanding what you're saying so I apologize if I'm reading it wrong, but penetration is absolutely determined by impact velocity, all else being equal. That doesn't mean higher impact velocity means more penetration. It just means that if you fire the same bullet put of a .308 Win and a .300 Win Mag and the impact velocity is the same, then penetration will be as well. At least in a perfect world. But unfortunately animals are not all the same and very minor changes in POI can significantly change terminal performance. A small sample size could change the results due to minor variations in manufacture, variations in the target, etc, but with a large sample size this will hold true.

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They both work equally well to a certain distance. The 300 Mag extends that distance. 300 Win Mag recoil is not hard to manage.

Edit: Yes I have shot elk with both.

Last edited by peeshooter; 02/12/20.

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Good to know that YOU know exactly how ".300 Win Mag" recoil feels to everybody else.


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There is a bit of delusion concerning a .308 Win being equivalent to any .300 magnum.....


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Originally Posted by WAM
There is a bit of delusion concerning a .308 Win being equivalent to any .300 magnum.....

Yep..

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