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Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: SU35] #14531988 02/02/20
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Originally Posted by SU35
Blah blah blah


Your buddy’s bull looks pretty busted!


I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
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Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: Ulvejaeger] #14532604 02/02/20
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Ulvejaeger: I have to concur with you - I have been using Nosler Partitions for just at 60 years now in the 30/06 and for 50 years in the 7m/m Remington Magnum - if and when a Nosler Partition ever "fails me" I might consider trying another bullet on Elk/Bear/Mt. Goat.
"Heard" to many "questionables" on the Barnes bullets from people I know and trust to even want to try them.
Long live Nosler!
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Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: RMerta] #14533606 02/02/20
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Had an old X bullet not open up for a hunting partner one year. 2nd shot worked. Recovered the first bullet and it looked like a pencil with a broken tip. That said, I’ve 100% confidence in the TTSX and like the idea of unleaded meat.


Again. Again. Again. -H. Brooks.
Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: Justahunter] #14566295 02/12/20
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Originally Posted by Justahunter
I like the tipped versions of Barnes bullets.

You couldn't pay me to use the TSX line again.

All recovered from animals.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Todd


The Barnes TSX is very different than the TTSX and LRX.

For myself, I'm 100% OK using TTSX and LRX on elk. This based on the combined experience of my hunting group, which has been using tipped Barnes bullets since the MRX was first introduced.,in 2006,


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No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

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Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: scenarshooter] #14566746 02/12/20
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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Originally Posted by SU35
Absolutely not.




This


+2

308/150 TTSX from elk. 70 yards (or a bit less) 2,730 FPS mv. Hit nothing prior to the elk, pinched closed on contact, tumbled, found backwards offside. I’d wager they fail more than every other cup and core bullet combined x 10.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]



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Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: Brad] #14568060 02/12/20
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Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Originally Posted by SU35
Absolutely not.




This


+2

308/150 TTSX from elk. 70 yards (or a bit less) 2,730 FPS mv. Hit nothing prior to the elk, pinched closed on contact, tumbled, found backwards offside. I’d wager they fail more than every other cup and core bullet combined x 10.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Even when they do expand they often dont kill very fast.
I would agree with your statement in regards to failure.

Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: BWalker] #14568403 02/12/20
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Originally Posted by BWalker
Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Originally Posted by SU35
Absolutely not.




This


+2

308/150 TTSX from elk. 70 yards (or a bit less) 2,730 FPS mv. Hit nothing prior to the elk, pinched closed on contact, tumbled, found backwards offside. I’d wager they fail more than every other cup and core bullet combined x 10.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Even when they do expand they often dont kill very fast.
I would agree with your statement in regards to failure.


I guess I’ve been just lucky. I’ve not experienced the failures exhibited here. Happy Trails


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Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: Brad] #14568864 02/13/20
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Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Originally Posted by SU35
Absolutely not.




This


+2

308/150 TTSX from elk. 70 yards (or a bit less) 2,730 FPS mv. Hit nothing prior to the elk, pinched closed on contact, tumbled, found backwards offside. I’d wager they fail more than every other cup and core bullet combined x 10.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]



Brad, I’m curious was this a one shot kill or were multiple shots required?

Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: Stilllearning] #14568907 02/13/20
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Originally Posted by Stilllearning


Brad, I’m curious was this a one shot kill or were multiple shots required?


Multiple, but I'm not sure why that matters.

When a $35 box of bullets behaves in a way that it's not designed to do, and does it more than most realize, that's a problem IMO. It's a paltry argument to say "it was pulled from a dead elk." If an airplane had the Barnes Rate Of Failure no one would fly in it.

One could just as easily load .308" sized FMJ's for a lot less money. But of course those are illegal for use on game, and for good reason - they don't expand.

Based on what I've seen, and what various friends have observed, I guarantee you more Barnes bullets are passing through game un-expanded than what most would imagine.

When they work, they work admirably. However, the only solid reasoning I can see to use them is based on a concern over lead poisoning, or where lead bullets are illegal. I'm not well versed enough on the science to have a firm opinion, but it may prove to be real. It certainly seems to be a problem for raptors feeding on gut piles, and that is not good.


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Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: RMerta] #14568971 02/13/20
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Based solely on my experience with eight or nine Colorado and New Mexico bulls over the years...

I've used the TSX BT in .270 Win., 7x61 S&H, and .308 Win. with complete success, only recovering one 150 grain 7mm bullet that displayed textbook mushrooming and no weight loss. Ranges have varied from about 125 - 375 yards. This past season, I tried a 150 TTSX BT in my NULA .308 loaded to a muzzle velocity of a little over 2,800 fps. It worked as well as the plain TSX at a distance of around 175 yards. First shot was high in the lungs (my fault) with the second in the heart. One bullet recovered - good mushrooming and no weight loss.

I realize the small sampling doesn't compare with alleged "truckloads" of elk killed by others, but I'm quite satisfied with the TSX and TTSX bullets. My limited experience with Nosler Partitions on elk has shown me the reliable terminal performance of Partition and Barnes bullets is about the same.

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Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: Brad] #14569355 02/13/20
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Originally Posted by Brad


I’d wager they fail more than every other cup and core bullet combined x 10.



Originally Posted by Brad

Based on what I've seen, and what various friends have observed, I guarantee you more Barnes bullets are passing through game un-expanded than what most would imagine.

That’s a pretty bold claim based on a limited sample size; one that doesn’t jive with my personal experience of witnessing ~150 big-game animals killed with Barnes bullets, not including the experiences of my hunting partners, friends, and family. You’ve been posting that same picture for years, and while I don’t doubt your experiences, you’re sure getting a lot of mileage out of it while claiming that Barnes bullets fail more than all C&C bullets combined x10. To see a tipped Barnes that had failed is extremely rare, IME, and even the non-tipped bullets produced uniformly expected results in my limited sample size.

Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: RMerta] #14569470 02/13/20
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I guess you can't turn against women because you had a bad ex-wife...LOL.


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Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: Jordan Smith] #14569584 02/13/20
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Lots of variables in such a discussion. To me, it depends a lot on where hit and somewhat on velocity.

The famous SC study showed softer C&C bullets dropped WT's faster than harder premium bullets.

But, I've seen deer hit with fast C&C's (140 NAB's at 26 Nosler speeds) run and TTSX or E-Tip hit deer drop in their tracks.

There are really too many variables for definitive conclusions.

But, a compulsive Loony will cogitate and ruminate over such trivia.

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Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: RMerta] #14569932 02/13/20
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I won't argue about the percentages of "failure to expand", simply because the only TSX I have ever recovered was a 300gn 375 cal bullet from a bison. It traveled, near as I can tell, about 30" and was under the offside front quarter, perfectly expanded and with one petal missing. The rest were all pass throughs, on hogs, whitetails, an Axis deer and an Audad. They all died, the vast majority very quickly, and the longest run after being was a whitetail doe that went about 55 yards into thick brush. They work for me. I've had equally impressive results with A-Max's too. Guess I'm just lucky.


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Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: RMerta] #14570125 02/13/20
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I have personally run 50 or so through deer and gutted and butchered those deer myself. I have loaded for others rifles at least another fifty that accounted for dead deer and I have examined carefully all but one or two of those. I have seen zero evidence of failure to expand. I have seen two recovered bullets, one recovered in the deer, and one recovered in the dirt after penetration.

Calibers have ranged from .223 to 50 ML. ranges have been from 25 feet to almost 300 yards. The average distance at which I have killed deer with them has probably been between 100 and 150 yards. The bullets have included early Xs, XLCs, TSXs, TTSXs, T-EZ, TMZs a few E-Tips and a few GMXs

25 samples of most things is enough to give you a pretty good idea of consistency.

The only minor expansion of Barnes bullets I have seen have all been stuck backwards in trees after going through targets and backers at the range. The only bent mono bullets I have seen were after the same thing. I have been loading since 1956. Since the same time I have been skinning deer and not just my own. It was the kids' job to skin what got shot that day after dinner. So, I have seen what a lot of different bullets can do. I have yet to see a cup and core bullet perform anywhere near as consistently as monos. I have very little experience with the best of today's bonded cup and cores however.

Were I to recover a bent bullet from a deer, a minimally expanded bullet or a non expanded bullet, before I blamed the bullet I would have to be damned sure it was not a case of pilot error AND that there was no other possible explanation based on the numbers of them that have killed deer after I worked up the rifle and load. Based on seeing more than one person claiming to have had more than one failure, and so many more having never seen evidence of even one failure, I have to just as someone trained in statistics be VERY suspicious of pilot error in those cases. I would need to see that ALL of the bullets that failed came from one box of factory ammo or one lot of bullets before I'd start to give equal credence to that possibility as pilot error.

Monos are certainly longer for bullet weight than cup and cores. Lead is denser than copper. It would not surprise me even a little for some of them to not be stabilized or marginally stable. If a target backer is enough to destabilize a mono and I have seen that happen, then hitting anything with a little moisture in it like a fat prairie grass stem or blackberry bramble could certainly do it as well. Could it do it more readily with a bullet that was barely spinning fast enough to stabilize it? I do not know, I never tested it , but it seems logical. I find it very hard to think of a situation in which a mono could hit a deer point first tumble after some distance inside a deer and retain the energy to bend the bullet. That takes some serious explaining.

Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: Jordan Smith] #14570167 02/13/20
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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Brad


I’d wager they fail more than every other cup and core bullet combined x 10.



Originally Posted by Brad

Based on what I've seen, and what various friends have observed, I guarantee you more Barnes bullets are passing through game un-expanded than what most would imagine.

That’s a pretty bold claim based on a limited sample size; one that doesn’t jive with my personal experience of witnessing ~150 big-game animals killed with Barnes bullets, not including the experiences of my hunting partners, friends, and family. You’ve been posting that same picture for years, and while I don’t doubt your experiences, you’re sure getting a lot of mileage out of it while claiming that Barnes bullets fail more than all C&C bullets combined x10. To see a tipped Barnes that had failed is extremely rare, IME, and even the non-tipped bullets produced uniformly expected results in my limited sample size.

There is plenty of other pics on the internet showing the same thing. Barnes has continued to change their bullets since the original X bullet came out. This is for good reason.

Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: BWalker] #14570219 02/13/20
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Originally Posted by BWalker
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Brad


I’d wager they fail more than every other cup and core bullet combined x 10.



Originally Posted by Brad

Based on what I've seen, and what various friends have observed, I guarantee you more Barnes bullets are passing through game un-expanded than what most would imagine.

That’s a pretty bold claim based on a limited sample size; one that doesn’t jive with my personal experience of witnessing ~150 big-game animals killed with Barnes bullets, not including the experiences of my hunting partners, friends, and family. You’ve been posting that same picture for years, and while I don’t doubt your experiences, you’re sure getting a lot of mileage out of it while claiming that Barnes bullets fail more than all C&C bullets combined x10. To see a tipped Barnes that had failed is extremely rare, IME, and even the non-tipped bullets produced uniformly expected results in my limited sample size.

There is plenty of other pics on the internet showing the same thing. Barnes has continued to change their bullets since the original X bullet came out. This is for good reason.

So has Nosler. The Partition has gone through iterations, does that mean the PT has a higher failure rate than 10x all other C&C bullets combined?

There are pics of failed bullets of every make and model. That doesn't say anything about the sample size of failed bullets compared to the total number in use.

Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: Jordan Smith] #14570230 02/13/20
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Failed bullet stories from the skinning shed...

DF

Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: BWalker] #14570522 02/13/20
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Originally Posted by BWalker
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Brad


I’d wager they fail more than every other cup and core bullet combined x 10.



Originally Posted by Brad

Based on what I've seen, and what various friends have observed, I guarantee you more Barnes bullets are passing through game un-expanded than what most would imagine.

That’s a pretty bold claim based on a limited sample size; one that doesn’t jive with my personal experience of witnessing ~150 big-game animals killed with Barnes bullets, not including the experiences of my hunting partners, friends, and family. You’ve been posting that same picture for years, and while I don’t doubt your experiences, you’re sure getting a lot of mileage out of it while claiming that Barnes bullets fail more than all C&C bullets combined x10. To see a tipped Barnes that had failed is extremely rare, IME, and even the non-tipped bullets produced uniformly expected results in my limited sample size.

There is plenty of other pics on the internet showing the same thing. Barnes has continued to change their bullets since the original X bullet came out. This is for good reason.


There is not a manufacturer in the world that does not strive to improve their product as technology changes. To not do so is to fail as your competitors change and improve their products.

Re: Barnes bullet... are you completely sold? [Re: Jordan Smith] #14570565 02/13/20
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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

That’s a pretty bold claim based on a limited sample size; one that doesn’t jive with my personal experience of witnessing ~150 big-game animals killed with Barnes bullets, not including the experiences of my hunting partners, friends, and family. You’ve been posting that same picture for years, and while I don’t doubt your experiences, you’re sure getting a lot of mileage out of it while claiming that Barnes bullets fail more than all C&C bullets combined x10. To see a tipped Barnes that had failed is extremely rare, IME, and even the non-tipped bullets produced uniformly expected results in my limited sample size.


It's far more than a sample of one Jordan, going back into the early 90's for me.

The reason you haven't seen any more Barnes Failure Photos from me is I quit them after that final failure shown in the photo above.

I have somewhere around 10 additional guys I know that have taken well over 150 head of game between us with the various monos. To a guy, they all have a jaundiced view of them given sporadic failures.

Pat (Scenarshooter) certainly disagrees with you, and I guarantee he's killed a bit more game than most on this entire thread combined.

When they work, the work fine. When they fail, they fail miserably.

The monos rely on a tiny cavity for expansion, so of course they're going to fail at a far higher rate than a lead bullet (I've never had a lead bullet fail), just like a HP varmint bullet fails more often than a lead counterpart.

This just isn't that hard, unless you choose to embrace a "belief system" over reality...



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