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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by SafariLife
I’ve seen many photos of NPT bullets recovered from buff with zero lead left up front, as PH’s have testified to.


I have killed buffalo with various bullets, and seen them killed by my hunting companions with several more. Whether or not the present-day Partitions leave any lead up front is irrevelant, because all the models that might be used on buffalo--from the 286-grain 9.3mm up--have the partition moved forward so they retain just about as much weight as the same weight/caliber of A-Frame, even if they do lose the entire front core. As an example, I have only seen two 400-grain .416 Partitions recovered from buffalo, and they averaged 90% weight retention. And because Partitions open to a narrower mushroom than A-Frames, they will generally penetrate a little deeper--and a smaller mushroom is also a major reason monolithics penetrate deeper. (Which is also the reason the late lamented North Fork penetrated so deeply.)

I have also found many PHs aren't particularly sophisticated about the details of bullets design and performance--mostly because many are not gun nuts, as somebody else already pointed out. But some are, and among those I've hunted with is Luke Samaras, the vastly experienced PH who started in Kenya before the 1977 safari ban. While Luke owns and uses a bunch of different rifles in various chamberings, he's a big .416 Rigby AND Nosler Partition fan. When he discovered in 2011 that Nosler made a 400-grain .416 Partition he switched, and has been very happy ever since.

Luckily there are a bunch of excellent buffalo bullets made today, and I will continue to use various brands. But one thing I won't do is judge a Partition's performance on how much lead is "left up front." Instead I'll judge them on how well they penetrate and kill, and so far those I've used and seen used have penetrated more than sufficiently and killed fine, in calibers including .375, .416 and .458. The relatively few that have been recovered retained an average of around 90% of their weight, which is far more relevant than retaining their front core.





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Obviously I’m completely wrong in thinking lead up front equals weight for penetration. I’m wrong, good for you. Have a great day. I’ll just keep shooting buffalo with my North Forks

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My buddy is wanting to put a muzzle brake on his .416 Rem. I'm trying to talk him out of it. I've heard and read that PH's don't like them and they make a LOT of noise. I have one on a 300 Win Mag Ed Brown Damara, as it came so equipped from the factory. I've never added one, don't plan to. Well, I did put one on a .223 Ranch rifle that Accuracy Systems worked over. But it's the kind that blows the gas forward, doesn't seem to increase noise as much as side discharge types.

If I shot that .416 a number of times on the standing bench without a brake, he can shoot it in the field without one.... grin

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Very Nice DF..... not DG sorry

The recoil did not look too bad. I don't know that I'd bench it tho. (a sitting bench)


Jerry

Last edited by jwall; 04/29/21.

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Originally Posted by jwall
Very Nice DF..... not DG sorry

The recoil did not look too bad. I don't know that I'd bench it tho. (a sitting bench)


Jerry

I bench rest shot my .404J and think the standing bench is the way to shoot big guns.

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Originally Posted by SafariLife
Obviously I’m completely wrong in thinking lead up front equals weight for penetration. I’m wrong, good for you. Have a great day. I’ll just keep shooting buffalo with my North Forks


I know the guy who invented North Forks very well, and close to 20 years ago spent considerable time in his shop in Glenrock, Wyoming. Among other things he showed me his penetration-testing set-up, which was quite sophisticated--and then explained that when he originally designed the North Fork the little bit of lead in the front-end was NOT bonded. Instead it was inserted to insure the bullet would expand--unlike early hollow-point monolithics, which sometimes did not.

But he got so many questions from potential buyers about whether that little bit of lead was "bonded" that he ran bonded some, and ran some tests in his penetration set-up. There was ZERO measurable in penetration between the bonded and non-bonded versions, not surprising since
the lead in the tip amounted to less than 10% of the total weight of the bullet.

But he decided to bond them (via the usual method of heating them up until the lead's soldered to the copper) simply because so many potential customers believed in the magic of bonding. This of course meant there was still some lead attached to the front end of recovered bullets, which comforted guys like you. And once the magic word "bonded" was added to the North Fork, they started selling better.

Also had a similar conversation with Randy Brooks about the development of the X-Bullet, shortly after the TSX appeared. Randy said that the original X-Bullet tended to lose it's petals--which he though was probably a good thing, since it resulted in more damage to internal organs. But his customers eventually started bragging about Xs retaining all their petals--and hence 100% of their weight. So Randy played with the annealing until Xs almost always retained all their weight. This decision was based on the old business adage, "The customer is always right." (Oh, and in case you've never tried them. Barnes Xs kill very well without ANY "lead up front.")

If you firmly believe that remaining lead-up-front kills big game "better" than, say, a wider mushroom without any remaining lead, or a smaller petal-opening, leadless bullet, why then you should continue on your chosen path. But I have killed, and seen killed, too many big game animals with various expanding bullets that did NOT follow your particular belief-system to buy it. And yes, I have used quite a few North Forks, both in North America and Africa. They're very good bullets, but as I noted earlier, there are a bunch of very good bullets these days.

Good hunting!




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You missed the whole point, but that’s ok. Take care.

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Originally Posted by SafariLife
You missed the whole point, but that’s ok. Take care.

How so?

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by SafariLife
You missed the whole point, but that’s ok. Take care.

How so?

DF


Inquiring minds would like to know



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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It simply comes down to bullet integrity/weight retention from what I understand from photos of recovered NPT bullets having lost the entire front half. That’s exactly what those PH’s spoke about as well. I’m certainly not saying a thing about having to have “lead up front” as mule deer concentrated on so sharply. I’m not that ignorant (I’ve killed buff with monolithic solids as a lot of you have). Bullets that shed parts of whatever they are made of can absolutely kill just as good as those that loose nothing. My original statement was only sharing the advice of PH’s that had opinions of NPT bullets and photographic observations of my own from various references. Everyone on here seems to have advice and/or preferences, and it’s all information both good, bad, and indifferent. We all have our 2 cents worth. For those that want to again say I don’t know what I’m talking about feel free, I never threw out names of people I know, data, statistics, etc. I just passed along some suggestions from the front line people that you pay to keep you in one piece on your safari. No worries here, all good.

Last edited by SafariLife; 04/30/21. Reason: Additional response
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I am by no means a Nosler fan, but they are designed to lose a lot of the front, causing damage and allowing the shank to penetrate deeper. You guys should just "come to the light" and go T/TTSXs smile


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Originally Posted by SafariLife
You missed the whole point, but that’s ok. Take care.


No, you missed my whole point--which is that since you have no personal experience on buffalo with Nosler Partitions, you don't know what you're talking about. My point was that Partitions do NOT lose half their weight if they lose the front core. Even the smaller caliber models, primarily used on deer-to-elk sized game, typically only lose around a third of their weight, and often less.

But the larger-caliber Partitions, designed for heavier game, have the Partition moved forward. The jacket is also heavy enough that they do usually retain the front core, but even if they don't it's not a big deal. Since you're a big believer in judging bullet performance from photos (since you've never seen Partitions used on buffalo) here's a photo of four Partitions recovered from buffalo.

The two on the left are 300-grain .375s, fired from a .375 H&H at 2550 fps, with a .375 round next to them to show the scale. They retained 88% and 89% of their weight. One was from an angling-away shot, and the other from a basically broadside shot. The buffalo went about 30-40 yards before falling. Have also killed quite a bit of plains game with 300 .375 Partitions, including my biggest-bodied kudu, but have never recovered one so don't know whether they retained the front core or not.

The two bullets on the right are 400-grain .416s, both from a .416 Rigby at a muzzle velocity of 2400 fps. The one with the intact front core retained 95% of its weight, but even the one that lost its core retained 83%--which is considerably more than half its weight. The one that lost the front core entered the left rear of the ribcage of a big bull that was angling away, then penetrated through the front of the paunch and both lungs before ending up in the right shoulder--which may be where it lost the core, due to hitting bone. As best my PH and I could measure, penetration was at least 5 feet, and perhaps closer to 6. The bull ran about 40 yards and keeled over.

Good hunting.

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You crack me up !

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Ya know.

A guy could accidentally learn something.

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Originally Posted by jorgeI
I am by no means a Nosler fan, but they are designed to lose a lot of the front, causing damage and allowing the shank to penetrate deeper. You guys should just "come to the light" and go T/TTSXs smile


Hi Jorge,

I hope you weren't meaning to include me among "You guys!" Killed my first animal with a Barnes X in 1989, and took quite a few others with them through the 1990s, as quality (and accuracy) steadily improved--though used Fail Safes somewhat more, because Winchester solved the accuracy/fouling problem earlier.

Started using the TSX in 2003, the year it appeared, when Eileen provided Coni Brooks with the first "field report" of a TSX used on a bull elk--which happened to be a 140-grain from a .270 Winchester. Since then she has used more TSXs than any other bullet--though since 2007 all have been the Tipped TSX's, because they solved the occasional problem of smaller-caliber TSX not opening.

I haven't used them quite as much as she has, mostly because there are always new bullets that need to be field-tested. But have used plenty, probably about half in a pair of .257 Weatherbys, and in fact the last big game animal I killed in 2020 was a mule deer taken at 327 yards with the 175-grain Barnes LRX from a .30-06. Didn't really need that much bullet for the deer, but there was a possibility of running into a grizzly in that area, about 25 miles from our house. It worked well on the deer, though, dropping it instantly with a what Elmer Keith called a "raking" shot--with the typical minimal meat damage.

If I ever hunt buffalo again, will probably use the 270-grain TSX from my .375 H&H, which was the first rifle I took to Africa a few decades ago.

John


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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Ya know.

A guy could accidentally learn something.

DF


Ha. I was thinking the same thing.


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Originally Posted by SafariLife
You crack me up !


You're a riot too!

I'm always amused when somebody bases his opinion on a bullet he's never used on what some other people say, and not any actual experience. I'm also always amused when somebody says ALL professional hunters in Africa have exactly the same opinions on a certain subject.

I know quite a few PHs, including several that were guiding during a month-long cull hunt around a dozen American hunters participated in during 2007. I especially remember one beery evening toward the end of the month, when the PHs started arguing about bullets and ballistics. Their opinions were just as diverse as those posted here.

One of the most experienced PHs I've hunted with, and more than once, is the now-retired Kevin Thomas. He grew up in what was then Rhodesia, and one of his early jobs was shooting buffalo off a big ranch, to make way for domestic cattle. That was back when Rhodesia basically didn't have a safari industry, and there weren't many "premium" bullets. His primary choice was a .30-06, handloaded with 180-grain Nosler Partitions, and he was NOT head-shooting buffalo at night, but herds driven past him by the ranch workers. The object was to shoot as many buffalo as possible, to save grass for the "paying" cattle, and he shot everything from calves to big bulls. Eventually he killed over 500--and told me he never had a problem, as long as he could get a clear shot at the chest, whether frontal shots or rear-angling.

Kevin started writing magazine stories and books toward the end of his PH career, and after retiring wrote even more, including a fine book titled THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT BUFFALO, a collection of stories not only by him but several of his long-time PH partners and friends. It's available from several sources on the Internet, and you might learn something from it, though I tend to doubt it.

Cheers!


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I think it was Reagan who said, anyone can have his own opinion, just not his own facts.

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DF,

I recall that was Reagan as well.

Kevin Thomas tends to just laugh when somebody (which is occasionally a younger PH) claims Partitions aren't adequate for buffalo.


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I’ll just start out saying that this has continued so long I think we are becoming friends! At any rate, I actually never had an opinion on NPT’s, I only shared what I heard and read about. Hell, poachers kill all kinds of game with whatever they can pour down a barrel - a hole in the right place is all you need. I’ll honestly never have an opinion on any bullets except North Forks and A Frames (only 2 I’ve ever used extensively and all I’ll certainly try to ever use- just because they work for me and I tend to stick with what works). I would like to have the funds to go on a “let’s see how these bullets work” hunting trip but until then me and my Westley Richards will still be shooting North Forks.
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