Heading to Africa for buffalo. I’m planning on using my m70 CRF 375 RUM with 300gr fail safes. I’m looking hard for a left hand 375 for my dad.... can’t find a CZ so may have to get a Ruger in 375 Ruger. I will probably load his ammo too but if it shoots the factory ammo I may just use it. Is the new bonded 300 DGX bullet worthy? I’ve read a lot of negative reports on that bullet but I think they are all from before they bonded that bullet. Any info appreciated!
Yeah, my ph like A frames and TSX. I bought several hundred .375 fail safes long ago when they quit making them. My RUM shoots them very well. I’m going to load them or the TSX, A frame or partitions in my dads Ruger 375 I just picked up. Which ever shoots best. Still researching the factory 375 Ruger ammo too though.
I have used the 270 TSX on 5 and each was taken with a single shot. Used the 300 AF on one but needed 4 shots. At Ruger velocities I would use the 270 TSX. Buffalo are usually in herds and the TSX 300’s tend to full penetrate, not good.
“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”. Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
The DGX will probably work, they just aren't in the same league as the TSX and A-Frame. The Barnes and Swifts pretty well set the bar for expanding bullets and they both have a fine reputation in Africa. Which is a little odd since they are very different bullets.
The FailSafes are good too, they just were abandoned too soon by Nosler and Olin.
Tell us more about the Model 70 375 RUM. Putting one together for myself for a possible lion hunt. Have you used it yet?
It started out as a m70 CRF 338 win mag. I’m guessing I bought it new about 20 years ago. Never even shot it as I have an old 700KS 338. Anyway had a local ( Memphis tn) smith screw on a 26” fairly stout Douglas barrel and put a set of NEF express sites on it. Factory stock. Never bedded it or anything. Just opened up the barrel channel a bit. I think I did some work on the follower spring and mag box to get it to hold three in the mag. It shoots wonderfully. 300 grr partitions, the old 270 spire point and 300 RN Hornady’s always shot very well. Never tried any x or TTSX but it also shoots the 300FS into small groups too. It’s got Talley mounts and a 1.5-5 Leupold scope. I did put a 1” decelerator pad on it. It is pretty lively when you shoot it.... if I were to do it again I’d probably go 24” on the barrel. It’s a pretty long rifle. But I wanted all the RUM had to offer.
I used 300 grain Nolser Partitions out of my 375 Ruger LH. On my 1st bull it was a quartering to shot @ 50 yards. One shot inside the front shoulder----thru the heart & lungs. He went about 50 yards & piled up. The 2nd bull was a high shoulder shot. It broke the shoulder & took out the top of the lungs. He required a little tracking & a follow up shot. I used Win Mag primers, 81 grains of IMR 4350 & a 300 grain Nolser Partition.
Did you find that LH 375 Ruger? Mine is a Hawkeye.
I had great results with the Swift A-Frame. That said, while I have not used it personally, I have also heard good things about the new DGX Bonded bullet as well.
Thx. I bought some 270TSX for my dads 375 Ruger with the 20” barrel. It’s shooting .5” three shot groups at 100 yards with a book max of RL15. I’m guessing 2600 FPS or so but I haven’t chronographed it. I chose it over the 300 because X’s “thrive” on velocity and out of that short barrel I wanted to try to get as much as I could. We should be hunting herds so I was also scared of having the 300 grainer shooting clear through. I did finally get in tough with Bill from Swift bullets but by then I had a 1/2” load using the 270TS. My RUM is shooting them at about .7” and groups are getting tighter as the powder charges go up, but so is the recoil. I think my last load was 96gr of H4350 and I think the max is 98...but it was a lot nicer to shoot at 92.... if a 270TSX @2750 won’t kill u buff I doubt an extra 100fps will matter. FWIW the TSX are quite a bit more accurate than the 300 A frame factory loads out of my rifle.
Saeed on the accurate reloading forum has a favorite 375 x 404 Jeffrey which is practically the same as the 375 RUM he has shot several hundred buffalo with Barnes Bullets, he has used others, Swift, Rhino and more but keeps going back to the Barnes.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
Both rifles should have the same safeties, etc so there is no confusion in a stressful moment; i.e, two Winchester model 70's' etc.
Barnes TSX, Barnes Banded Solid and/or Swift A-Frame Both softs and solids should feed, extract and eject perfectly. Both softs and solids should shoot to the same point of aim. if cat hunting, Nosler Partition.
Am always slightly puzzled when both the Barnes TSX and Swift A-Frames are rated so highly, either by hunters or PHs. They work very differently. The A-Frames normally expand widely so don't penetrate nearly as deeply as TSX's in the same weights and caliber. In fact, in my experience would rate them at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as penetration.
That doesn't mean both aren't excellent bullets, but a number of bullets in between their differing parameters work equally well--which should be no surprise.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I used 300 grain North Fork soft points followed by 300 grain North Fork solids. One of the soft points we recovered was perfectly mushroomed and weighed 292 grains. I'm certain that other bonded bullets would work equally well.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
If I may be so bold, may I suggest you get a copy of Kevin Robertson's book: AFRICA'S MOST DANGEROUS. And, if you can locate a copy of: NYATI (The art of hunting the African buffalo) published by Mag-Set Publications (Pvt) Ltd. Website: www.african-hunter.com get a copy of this book as well. These two books contain a wealth of valuable information regarding the Cape buffalo. Viz: History of the animal, distribution, shot placement, selecting the right caliber, etc. Both books are informative, and easy to read.
Am always slightly puzzled when both the Barnes TSX and Swift A-Frames are rated so highly, either by hunters or PHs. They work very differently. The A-Frames normally expand widely so don't penetrate nearly as deeply as TSX's in the same weights and caliber. In fact, in my experience would rate them at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as penetration.
That doesn't mean both aren't excellent bullets, but a number of bullets in between their differing parameters work equally well--which should be no surprise.
And the good old Nosler Partition 'may' out penetrate them both.
Benbo, If you are shooting Winchester Fail Safe (aka ) Black Talon, they are superb on big tough critters. I used the 230 grainers in my .338 on a plains game hunt and was very pleased . Woodleighs are also hard to beat. Took a buff with my 1895 .405 and a 400 grain Weldcore - went in behind the last rib, through innards including heart and out between the front legs; hard to beat.
My 1886 45-90 became a buff blasting machine using 450 grain Kodiak FMJ at 2150 fps. Took several buff and knocked down an ele. Much prefer the NF and Punch solids for ele though.
Have a good hunt.
CRS, NRA Benefactor Life Member, Whittington Center, TSRA, DWWC, DRSS Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/
Benbo, If you are shooting Winchester Fail Safe (aka ) Black Talon, they are superb on big tough critters. I used the 230 grainers in my .338 on a plains game hunt and was very pleased . Woodleighs are also hard to beat. Took a buff with my 1895 .405 and a 400 grain Weldcore - went in behind the last rib, through innards including heart and out between the front legs; hard to beat.
My 1886 45-90 became a buff blasting machine using 450 grain Kodiak FMJ at 2150 fps. Took several buff and knocked down an ele. Much prefer the NF and Punch solids for ele though.
Have a good hunt.
CRS, NRA Benefactor Life Member, Whittington Center, TSRA, DWWC, DRSS Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/
Am always slightly puzzled when both the Barnes TSX and Swift A-Frames are rated so highly, either by hunters or PHs. They work very differently. The A-Frames normally expand widely so don't penetrate nearly as deeply as TSX's in the same weights and caliber. In fact, in my experience would rate them at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as penetration.
That doesn't mean both aren't excellent bullets, but a number of bullets in between their differing parameters work equally well--which should be no surprise.
And the good old Nosler Partition 'may' out penetrate them both.
That’s because it shed it’s front end( the petals generally fall off on tough critters) and continues as a solid base- 😆
100% agree ...North Forks are unequalled. Shot all my buff with them. When a 0.458 diameter turns into 0.820 diameter and 500 grains end up as 498 grains that one hell of a bullet.
Am always slightly puzzled when both the Barnes TSX and Swift A-Frames are rated so highly, either by hunters or PHs. They work very differently. The A-Frames normally expand widely so don't penetrate nearly as deeply as TSX's in the same weights and caliber. In fact, in my experience would rate them at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as penetration.
That doesn't mean both aren't excellent bullets, but a number of bullets in between their differing parameters work equally well--which should be no surprise.
And the good old Nosler Partition 'may' out penetrate them both.
Absolutely. If noslers shoot in your rifle, I would use them exclusively. The problem with Noslers is they are the most consistently inaccurate bullets across all calibers I've ever used. The TTSXs and North Forks beat them by a long margin in this regard.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Saeed on the accurate reloading forum has a favorite 375 x 404 Jeffrey which is practically the same as the 375 RUM he has shot several hundred buffalo with Barnes Bullets, he has used others, Swift, Rhino and more but keeps going back to the Barnes.
Saeed makes his own Bullets from solid round stock. They’re 300 grain moly coated mono metals that he calls Walterhog Bullets, for his good friend and sidekick Walter, who does a lot of gunsmithing work for the family. He has an impressive gun shop with a couple CNC lathes for building rifles and making bullets, right on the compound where he lives. The 375/404 wildcat he shoots is also his own design, based on a Dakota model 76 action with 26” Lilja barrel. He is a gun nut like few others and a delight to spend time with. I’ve visited him a couple times when passing through Dubai and those visits have been highlights of my trips. Anyone who gets an invite to meet him should take him up on it, he’s a wonderful fellow with a great sense of humor.
He is not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination. He actually thinks all of our politicians are incompetent crooks (maybe not all, but at least 95%). He has a very low opinion of American politics. He’s actually fascinating to discuss world affairs and politics with. They’re more open minded and reasonable there than you’d imagine.
He is not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination. He actually thinks all of our politicians are incompetent crooks (maybe not all, but at least 95%). He has a very low opinion of American politics. He’s actually fascinating to discuss world affairs and politics with. They’re more open minded and reasonable there than you’d imagine.
Bullhit. He's a democrat ball washer and so is his site administrator.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
He is not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination. He actually thinks all of our politicians are incompetent crooks (maybe not all, but at least 95%). He has a very low opinion of American politics. He’s actually fascinating to discuss world affairs and politics with. They’re more open minded and reasonable there than you’d imagine.
Bullhit. He's a democrat ball washer and so is his site administrator.
I agree, he is part of 5% ultra elite that happens to enjoy firearms and hunting.
Am always slightly puzzled when both the Barnes TSX and Swift A-Frames are rated so highly, either by hunters or PHs. They work very differently. The A-Frames normally expand widely so don't penetrate nearly as deeply as TSX's in the same weights and caliber. In fact, in my experience would rate them at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as penetration.
That doesn't mean both aren't excellent bullets, but a number of bullets in between their differing parameters work equally well--which should be no surprise.
And the good old Nosler Partition 'may' out penetrate them both.
Absolutely. If noslers shoot in your rifle, I would use them exclusively. The problem with Noslers is they are the most consistently inaccurate bullets across all calibers I've ever used. The TTSXs and North Forks beat them by a long margin in this regard.
Be danged Jorge, they've always been the first ones i try, and 99% on the time stay there, have always shot really well for me, iirc that old 300 H&h i bought from you loved 180gr Barnes, never tried em in it, that thing eats 200-220gr partitions over H-4831 like candy, sweet old pre-64.
He is not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination. He actually thinks all of our politicians are incompetent crooks (maybe not all, but at least 95%). He has a very low opinion of American politics. He’s actually fascinating to discuss world affairs and politics with. They’re more open minded and reasonable there than you’d imagine.
Bullhit. He's a democrat ball washer and so is his site administrator.
I agree, he is part of 5% ultra elite that happens to enjoy firearms and hunting.
If not for American technology and inventions the place would be named dontbuy-cantbuy................there would be no dubai! still shackin in sand tents tending goats!
He is not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination. He actually thinks all of our politicians are incompetent crooks (maybe not all, but at least 95%). He has a very low opinion of American politics. He’s actually fascinating to discuss world affairs and politics with. They’re more open minded and reasonable there than you’d imagine.
Bullhit. He's a democrat ball washer and so is his site administrator.
I agree, he is part of 5% ultra elite that happens to enjoy firearms and hunting.
If not for American technology and inventions the place would be named dontbuy-cantbuy................there would be no dubai! still shackin in sand tents tending goats!
Yup... oil screwed us.. they haven’t been anything but a headache since...
He is not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination. He actually thinks all of our politicians are incompetent crooks (maybe not all, but at least 95%). He has a very low opinion of American politics. He’s actually fascinating to discuss world affairs and politics with. They’re more open minded and reasonable there than you’d imagine.
Bullhit. He's a democrat ball washer and so is his site administrator.
Jorge, I guess you and I know him differently. Yes, his site administrator is a lib, but he’s also Jewish and the fact that Saeed has employed him for decades does say something about Saeed. Back when he hired Don, not a lot of Arabs would employ Jews. Saeed is very pragmatic, open-minded and fair from what I know of him. I’m aware that you frequent AR, but not sure how well you actually know Saeed. I know him enough to know that I like him a lot more than some (many) others who lurk there. He’s always been straight up with me and is a very gracious host. Some people whom I know extremely well and trust, people who know him much better than any of us ever will, regard him very highly. That’s good enough for me. I’ll see him very briefly later this year in Tanzania. I’ll be sure to tell him you send your regards.
He is not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination. He actually thinks all of our politicians are incompetent crooks (maybe not all, but at least 95%). He has a very low opinion of American politics. He’s actually fascinating to discuss world affairs and politics with. They’re more open minded and reasonable there than you’d imagine.
Bullhit. He's a democrat ball washer and so is his site administrator.
Jorge, I guess you and I know him differently. Yes, his site administrator is a lib, but he’s also Jewish and the fact that Saeed has employed him for decades does say something about Saeed. Back when he hired Don, not a lot of Arabs would employ Jews. Saeed is very pragmatic, open-minded and fair from what I know of him. I’m aware that you frequent AR, but not sure how well you actually know Saeed. I know him enough to know that I like him a lot more than some (many) others who lurk there. He’s always been straight up with me and is a very gracious host. Some people whom I know extremely well and trust, people who know him much better than any of us ever will, regard him very highly. That’s good enough for me. I’ll see him very briefly later this year in Tanzania. I’ll be sure to tell him you send your regards.
CA: Please don't. I was a member (still am I suppose) of AR since 2001 and I know Saeed very well, perhaps not as well as you but we've had discussions off line for years as well as many of his other acquaintances there. I know DSC supports the site for obvious reasons, but his actions really made it impossible for me to continue. He admitted to me his support of democrats (yes I am well aware of the Don's background). My falling out with Saeed came after he posted an obviously anti-Trump diatribe in the African Hunting threads where before he had limited that to the Political Forums which I NEVER visited. When I called him out on it, he not only deleted his post, but blamed me for bringing politics into that forum. I have a LOT of friends over there and they know my position. I do miss them and for that matter AR, but after that last BS he pulled, I'm done with him and them over there. There are a LOT of people over there who sacrifice their principles to stay on his "good side", but you know what? without principles and honor, a man is nothing. And let's not even go into the leach called Walter whose anti-Americanism is off the peg.
Cheers,
jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Jorge, fair enough. I remember the incident to which you refer. I don’t begrudge you, or him.
I must say though, I do find some of the other poster’s comments amusing.
Yeah, well I can't control the comments. I didn't read most of them I think after Saeed's last comments to me. Too bad for me I guess. I miss going there and my friends therein..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
CA: Please don't. I was a member (still am I suppose) of AR since 2001 and I know Saeed very well, perhaps not as well as you but we've had discussions off line for years as well as many of his other acquaintances there. I know DSC supports the site for obvious reasons, but his actions really made it impossible for me to continue. He admitted to me his support of democrats (yes I am well aware of the Don's background). My falling out with Saeed came after he posted an obviously anti-Trump diatribe in the African Hunting threads where before he had limited that to the Political Forums which I NEVER visited. When I called him out on it, he not only deleted his post, but blamed me for bringing politics into that forum. I have a LOT of friends over there and they know my position. I do miss them and for that matter AR, but after that last BS he pulled, I'm done with him and them over there. There are a LOT of people over there who sacrifice their principles to stay on his "good side", but you know what? without principles and honor, a man is nothing. And let's not even go into the leach called Walter whose anti-Americanism is off the peg.
Cheers,
jorge
I 100% agree. These are the primary reasons why I stopped going to AR. Not to mention the arrogance of the the prolific posters over there. The combination is hard to take.
The politics there took a pretty hard turn after 2016. At least that I noticed. Maybe it was present before but I sure didnt notice it to the extent it has been the last 4 or 5 years. It also seems to have driven the dwindling participation.
While I very much like custom rifles, and some great rifle builders post there, the irony of the site owner constantly criticizing US politics while living in a corner of the world that today is rife with human trafficking, slavery, and a myriad of human rights violations most of the developed world left behind a century ago, is too much. No matter how "generous" he may be.
He can have his play ground. I don't need to participate.
As to bullets...I havent shot a buff, but I'd happily shoot partions, TTSX, Aframes, DGX, or a handful of other bullets given the opportunity. If I was to pick one, it'd be between the TTSX or the partition just based on reports from those that post here that have. I think most bullets today are very capable.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
Heading to Africa for buffalo. I’m planning on using my m70 CRF 375 RUM with 300gr fail safes. I’m looking hard for a left hand 375 for my dad.... can’t find a CZ so may have to get a Ruger in 375 Ruger. I will probably load his ammo too but if it shoots the factory ammo I may just use it. Is the new bonded 300 DGX bullet worthy? I’ve read a lot of negative reports on that bullet but I think they are all from before they bonded that bullet. Any info appreciated!
Any one with a left hand CZ 375 I’m looking. THX
Call and ask your guide which bullet(s) he recommends. He knows your hunt FAR better than anyone e;se. Also ask him what he shoots. After the call you're know more than anyone else here.
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. Albert Einstein
Last years hunt was scrubbed due to Covid.... this years hunt is kind of in limbo. I still have $5k in deposit riding on it so I hope I go. I think I have enough 270TSX loaded for my dad. I bought a CZ416 Rigby and it shoots 350TSX very well..... but now they are unobtainable
400 Aframes are also unobtainable
I’ve found some 400 partitions.... so I may be forced to use them.... if I get to go.
If I can’t get bullets for the .416 I guess I’ll shoot my 375 RUM and 300gr fail safes.
Hell..... if my ph lets me, I’d use my 8mag and 200TSX!
I know the .416 350gr TSX's are scarce right now, but the TTSX's can be found. I just picked up a couple of boxes to try since my TSX's are running low. I do not have any immediate plans to go after buffalo again. Someday maybe.
Scrounged components for my bud's May buff hunt. I sighted his .416 Rem (push feed M-70 with Shilen barrel). He is a big NPT fan, his PH likes SAF's and insisted on solids. Evidently this PH hasn't gotten into TSX's. Another bud who killed a nice 41" Zim buff, said his PH preferred and recommended the Barnes TSX. I'm thinking this is a regional thing, as I've heard reports of other Zim PH's preferring the TSX. Seems a lot of PH's aren't gun nuts. Accomplished hunters aren't always Loony types and vice versa.
So, using Swift data from Bill Hober, I loaded (20) 400 gr. NPT's and (20) 400 gr. SAF's, both over 75 gr 4064 and (10) 400 gr. Swift BreakAway solids over 77gr 4064. That 50 round box with a 50 rnd box of 7RM 160 gr. NAB's over 67 gr. RL-26, in the locked carry case, came to within a few ounces of the 11# limit. So, I felt good about that.
I shot the .416 on a standing bench and was impressed how accurate that rifle is. It easily beats MOA with the NPT, almost as good with the SAF. The solids aren't as accurate, maybe 1 1/2 MOA, but all sharing the same POI.
Here's the old Dirtfarmer shooting the .416 at bud's camp. You'll notice some recoil. Not too bad for a tough ole fart with a post op right shoulder. To hear the big gun speak, hit the un-mute button then play.
Between the A-Frame and Partition I’d bet you’d have to shoot a bunch of Buffalo to tell too much difference.
I’m betting that A-Frame is one wide expanding Bullet though.
Yeah, as noted before, I'd probably be pushing 350 gr. TSX's, hard.
Oddly enough, the NPT was more accurate than the SAF, not by a lot but tighter groups. Now, I didn't shoot the Fire prescribed 10 shot groups....
And, I don't plan to. It doesn't take many rounds to see what a big gun can do.
I don't think terminal performance, SAF vs. NPT, is gonna be much different, as you point out.
But, it is what it is. PH is happy, buddy is happy, hope that buff gets very unhappy, quickly,..
I'm delivering the bullet carrying case with two 50 rnd boxes of loaded ammo to bud's office this PM. He should be ready to lock and load, kill a big'un...
Wheels up for Africa, next month. We'll wait for report with pictures.
Heading to Africa for buffalo. I’m planning on using my m70 CRF 375 RUM with 300gr fail safes. I’m looking hard for a left hand 375 for my dad.... can’t find a CZ so may have to get a Ruger in 375 Ruger. I will probably load his ammo too but if it shoots the factory ammo I may just use it. Is the new bonded 300 DGX bullet worthy? I’ve read a lot of negative reports on that bullet but I think they are all from before they bonded that bullet. Any info appreciated!
Any one with a left hand CZ 375 I’m looking. THX
Call and ask your guide which bullet(s) he recommends. He knows your hunt FAR better than anyone e;se. Also ask him what he shoots. After the call you're know more than anyone else here.
In my experience that is typically not the case. I have done eight dangerous game safaris in Tanzania, Mozambique, Zambia, Zimbabwe, and Republic of Congo. Everyone of the PH's I used were remarkable hunters and trackers. They are not gun nuts. If there is a common theme it is they all dislike Partitions and they would prefer a well placed shot with DXS than a gut shot with the latest wizz bang bullet.
Shot placement trumps everything, the ability to get a shot off quickly and accurately from offhand, sticks, or a against a tree is hugely important. I always hunted with premium bullets North Fork and Cutting Edge are two of my favorite. They are just cheap insurance for the best result of your shot placement.
You mentioned earlier that the PH was an A Frame fan .... there’s a reason for that. According to the multiple PH’s I’ve hunted with the AFrame is the bullet of choice and also they have said not to bring NPT bullets. I’ve seen many photos of NPT bullets recovered from buff with zero lead left up front, as PH’s have testified to. Barnes is another bullet I’ve seen highly recommended as well. All the buff I’ve taken have been with North Fork bullets (with stellar expansion and weight retention). I’ve shot a few AFrames as insurance shots and recovered them to find they held together exceptionally well. Please understand I’ve got no dog in this fight, I’m just adding to the experience pool here.
I’ve seen many photos of NPT bullets recovered from buff with zero lead left up front, as PH’s have testified to.
I have killed buffalo with various bullets, and seen them killed by my hunting companions with several more. Whether or not the present-day Partitions leave any lead up front is irrevelant, because all the models that might be used on buffalo--from the 286-grain 9.3mm up--have the partition moved forward so they retain just about as much weight as the same weight/caliber of A-Frame, even if they do lose the entire front core. As an example, I have only seen two 400-grain .416 Partitions recovered from buffalo, and they averaged 90% weight retention. And because Partitions open to a narrower mushroom than A-Frames, they will generally penetrate a little deeper--and a smaller mushroom is also a major reason monolithics penetrate deeper. (Which is also the reason the late lamented North Fork penetrated so deeply.)
I have also found many PHs aren't particularly sophisticated about the details of bullets design and performance--mostly because many are not gun nuts, as somebody else already pointed out. But some are, and among those I've hunted with is Luke Samaras, the vastly experienced PH who started in Kenya before the 1977 safari ban. While Luke owns and uses a bunch of different rifles in various chamberings, he's a big .416 Rigby AND Nosler Partition fan. When he discovered in 2011 that Nosler made a 400-grain .416 Partition he switched, and has been very happy ever since.
Luckily there are a bunch of excellent buffalo bullets made today, and I will continue to use various brands. But one thing I won't do is judge a Partition's performance on how much lead is "left up front." Instead I'll judge them on how well they penetrate and kill, and so far those I've used and seen used have penetrated more than sufficiently and killed fine, in calibers including .375, .416 and .458. The relatively few that have been recovered retained an average of around 90% of their weight, which is far more relevant than retaining their front core.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Luckily there are a bunch of excellent buffalo bullets made today, and I will continue to use various brands. But one thing I won't do is judge a Partition's performance on how much lead is "left up front." Instead I'll judge them on how well they penetrate and kill, and so far those I've used and seen used have penetrated more than sufficiently and killed fine, in calibers including .375, .416 and .458. The relatively few that have been recovered retained an average of around 90% of their weight, which is far more relevant than retaining their front core.
Quite so.
When I was preparing for my first Cape buffalo hunt in 2015, I was inclined to use NP's in my .375 H&H, as I've had excellent results with them on all sizes of North American game in the past. I consulted my PH, and he was adamantly opposed to using them; he strongly recommended I use Swift A-frame 300's.
Now, my PH was/is somewhat of a gun guy, but not to the degree that anyone here would consider him a Rifle Looney, and certainly not an Inquiring Mind like yourself, JB. Other experienced African hunters I respected were very positive about the Barnes 270 TSX, and a couple of African PH's I talked to at the DSC shows agreed. But my guy continued to recommend strongly that I stay with the A-frames.
So, I bought a bunch of A-frame 300's. I also bought a bunch of Hornady 300 gr DG solids. Also some North Fork softpoint 300's. And some Sierra GK 300's. And some 300 gr NP's factory loads. Then I did a whole bunch of loading and shooting at my range with my rifle.
What I learned was that if I used the 300 gr A-frames with the load recipe I got from Ingwe, I had a very comfortable 2500 fps load that shot consistent 1.2-1.5" groups at 100 yards, 2.5" groups at 200 yards, and one-hole groups with the iron sights inside 20 yards. I won't claim to have done extensive load development with the other bullets, but I did try some recommended loads with each, and with the Nosler factory NP ammo as well. None of them grouped as well as the A-Frame Ingwe load, although none of them were bad... any of them would have served, had I chosen to use one of them and I'm sure I could have found a very accurate powder and charge for whichever bullet I settled on. But I settled on the A-frame, because it has proven itself on buff and it shoots very well out of my rifle. As an added bonus, the Ingwe-endorsed powder charge under the 300 gr Game King shot to the same point of aim as the A-frame, which made it an ideal candidate for a less-expensive practice load. (I have since used the GK load to kill Texas hogs and deer with satisfying success.)
My A-frame load has killed 2 Cape buffalo so far. Both were killed by the first bullet (through the heart), one at 50 yards and one at 125 yards. Both were then extra-killed with a couple more A-frames, to pay the insurance, as they say. My A-frames have also killed wildebeest, kudu, zebra, and sundry other African critters with satisfying efficiency. But I have no doubt that any of the bullets I have mentioned here could do the same.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
One of the big factors almost all of the PHs I've discussed buffalo bullets with in the past 20 years or so is that many feel some of today's expanding bullets can penetrate TOO much, potentially exiting and hitting another buffalo in a herd. This is exactly what happened with a good friend of mine on his first buffalo hunt. He used a small-maker "premium" 400-grain expanding bullet in a warmly loaded .45-70 (I can't remember the brand, but it's in my notes somewhere), and shot a good bull broadside--which expired pretty quickly after it ran into some thick brush.
But after they followed up the bull, one of the trackers informed them that he'd found more blood, beyond where the bull had been standing. They followed the blood, and found a dead cow--which luckily had also been hit broadside through the chest. It could just as easily been gutshot, or somewhere around the edges.
Which is why several PH's I've talked to recommend the 270-grain Barnes TSX for buffalo, rather than the 300-grain, which tends to exit, especially on broadside shots. This is one of the virtues of A-Frames, and some other bonded bullets: They expand so widely they often stop under the hide on the far side--which is exactly what happened when a hunting partner shot a bull with a 400-grain AF from a .416 Remington Magnum about 15 years ago. The bull went only 40 yards before dropping, and the bullet was found on the other side of the ribcage, under the hide.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
One of the big factors almost all of the PHs I've discussed buffalo bullets with in the past 20 years or so is that many feel some of today's expanding bullets can penetrate TOO much, potentially exiting and hitting another buffalo in a herd. This is exactly what happened with a good friend of mine on his first buffalo hunt. He used a small-maker "premium" 400-grain expanding bullet in a warmly loaded .45-70 (I can't remember the brand, but it's in my notes somewhere), and shot a good bull broadside--which expired pretty quickly after it ran into some thick brush.
But after they followed up the bull, one of the trackers informed them that he'd found more blood, beyond where the bull had been standing. They followed the blood, and found a dead cow--which luckily had also been hit broadside through the chest. It could just as easily been gutshot, or somewhere around the edges.
Which is why several PH's I've talked to recommend the 270-grain Barnes TSX for buffalo, rather than the 300-grain, which tends to exit, especially on broadside shots. This is one of the virtues of A-Frames, and some other bonded bullets: They expand so widely they often stop under the hide on the far side--which is exactly what happened when a hunting partner shot a bull with a 400-grain AF from a .416 Remington Magnum about 15 years ago. The bull went only 40 yards before dropping, and the bullet was found on the other side of the ribcage, under the hide.
I remember Brian Pearce killed 2 Cape Buffalo with 1 shot from a 45-70 with l believe was Buffalo Bore ammo and thought it was a 400 grain solid
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
JB, I can attest to the A-frames failing to exit the far side on both my buffalo. The killing bullets were found under the skin of the offside shoulder. Ditto for my wife's wildebeest and a both myt zebra. They did exit my hyena, my bushpig, and warthog.
This doesn't mean they lack penetrating capability, though... my 2015 kudu offered me a raking shot (through the side of his abdomen, angling toward the offside shoulder), which I normally would not have taken. However, the trackers and my PH all insisted I had wounded him on my previous shot, so it was either try to kill him at the raking angle or pay the not-inconsiderable trophy fee for a kudu bull and end up eating tag soup. My bullet entered about halfway between ribs and haunch, and was found under the skin of the off shoulder, and blew up both lungs on its way through. On a kudu, that is a lot of tissue to go through, not to mention whatever the contents of its stomach might have been (I suspect it hit liver, not stomach, which is what I was hoping for, but the guts came out in the skinning shed before I arrived after dinner that night). The bullet was only slightly mushroomed, and performed more or less as a 1.1 X Diameter "solid" on this shot.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
I’ve seen many photos of NPT bullets recovered from buff with zero lead left up front, as PH’s have testified to.
I have killed buffalo with various bullets, and seen them killed by my hunting companions with several more. Whether or not the present-day Partitions leave any lead up front is irrevelant, because all the models that might be used on buffalo--from the 286-grain 9.3mm up--have the partition moved forward so they retain just about as much weight as the same weight/caliber of A-Frame, even if they do lose the entire front core. As an example, I have only seen two 400-grain .416 Partitions recovered from buffalo, and they averaged 90% weight retention. And because Partitions open to a narrower mushroom than A-Frames, they will generally penetrate a little deeper--and a smaller mushroom is also a major reason monolithics penetrate deeper. (Which is also the reason the late lamented North Fork penetrated so deeply.)
I have also found many PHs aren't particularly sophisticated about the details of bullets design and performance--mostly because many are not gun nuts, as somebody else already pointed out. But some are, and among those I've hunted with is Luke Samaras, the vastly experienced PH who started in Kenya before the 1977 safari ban. While Luke owns and uses a bunch of different rifles in various chamberings, he's a big .416 Rigby AND Nosler Partition fan. When he discovered in 2011 that Nosler made a 400-grain .416 Partition he switched, and has been very happy ever since.
Luckily there are a bunch of excellent buffalo bullets made today, and I will continue to use various brands. But one thing I won't do is judge a Partition's performance on how much lead is "left up front." Instead I'll judge them on how well they penetrate and kill, and so far those I've used and seen used have penetrated more than sufficiently and killed fine, in calibers including .375, .416 and .458. The relatively few that have been recovered retained an average of around 90% of their weight, which is far more relevant than retaining their front core.
Obviously I’m completely wrong in thinking lead up front equals weight for penetration. I’m wrong, good for you. Have a great day. I’ll just keep shooting buffalo with my North Forks
My buddy is wanting to put a muzzle brake on his .416 Rem. I'm trying to talk him out of it. I've heard and read that PH's don't like them and they make a LOT of noise. I have one on a 300 Win Mag Ed Brown Damara, as it came so equipped from the factory. I've never added one, don't plan to. Well, I did put one on a .223 Ranch rifle that Accuracy Systems worked over. But it's the kind that blows the gas forward, doesn't seem to increase noise as much as side discharge types.
If I shot that .416 a number of times on the standing bench without a brake, he can shoot it in the field without one....
Obviously I’m completely wrong in thinking lead up front equals weight for penetration. I’m wrong, good for you. Have a great day. I’ll just keep shooting buffalo with my North Forks
I know the guy who invented North Forks very well, and close to 20 years ago spent considerable time in his shop in Glenrock, Wyoming. Among other things he showed me his penetration-testing set-up, which was quite sophisticated--and then explained that when he originally designed the North Fork the little bit of lead in the front-end was NOT bonded. Instead it was inserted to insure the bullet would expand--unlike early hollow-point monolithics, which sometimes did not.
But he got so many questions from potential buyers about whether that little bit of lead was "bonded" that he ran bonded some, and ran some tests in his penetration set-up. There was ZERO measurable in penetration between the bonded and non-bonded versions, not surprising since the lead in the tip amounted to less than 10% of the total weight of the bullet.
But he decided to bond them (via the usual method of heating them up until the lead's soldered to the copper) simply because so many potential customers believed in the magic of bonding. This of course meant there was still some lead attached to the front end of recovered bullets, which comforted guys like you. And once the magic word "bonded" was added to the North Fork, they started selling better.
Also had a similar conversation with Randy Brooks about the development of the X-Bullet, shortly after the TSX appeared. Randy said that the original X-Bullet tended to lose it's petals--which he though was probably a good thing, since it resulted in more damage to internal organs. But his customers eventually started bragging about Xs retaining all their petals--and hence 100% of their weight. So Randy played with the annealing until Xs almost always retained all their weight. This decision was based on the old business adage, "The customer is always right." (Oh, and in case you've never tried them. Barnes Xs kill very well without ANY "lead up front.")
If you firmly believe that remaining lead-up-front kills big game "better" than, say, a wider mushroom without any remaining lead, or a smaller petal-opening, leadless bullet, why then you should continue on your chosen path. But I have killed, and seen killed, too many big game animals with various expanding bullets that did NOT follow your particular belief-system to buy it. And yes, I have used quite a few North Forks, both in North America and Africa. They're very good bullets, but as I noted earlier, there are a bunch of very good bullets these days.
Good hunting!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
It simply comes down to bullet integrity/weight retention from what I understand from photos of recovered NPT bullets having lost the entire front half. That’s exactly what those PH’s spoke about as well. I’m certainly not saying a thing about having to have “lead up front” as mule deer concentrated on so sharply. I’m not that ignorant (I’ve killed buff with monolithic solids as a lot of you have). Bullets that shed parts of whatever they are made of can absolutely kill just as good as those that loose nothing. My original statement was only sharing the advice of PH’s that had opinions of NPT bullets and photographic observations of my own from various references. Everyone on here seems to have advice and/or preferences, and it’s all information both good, bad, and indifferent. We all have our 2 cents worth. For those that want to again say I don’t know what I’m talking about feel free, I never threw out names of people I know, data, statistics, etc. I just passed along some suggestions from the front line people that you pay to keep you in one piece on your safari. No worries here, all good.
Last edited by SafariLife; 04/30/21. Reason: Additional response
I am by no means a Nosler fan, but they are designed to lose a lot of the front, causing damage and allowing the shank to penetrate deeper. You guys should just "come to the light" and go T/TTSXs
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
You missed the whole point, but that’s ok. Take care.
No, you missed my whole point--which is that since you have no personal experience on buffalo with Nosler Partitions, you don't know what you're talking about. My point was that Partitions do NOT lose half their weight if they lose the front core. Even the smaller caliber models, primarily used on deer-to-elk sized game, typically only lose around a third of their weight, and often less.
But the larger-caliber Partitions, designed for heavier game, have the Partition moved forward. The jacket is also heavy enough that they do usually retain the front core, but even if they don't it's not a big deal. Since you're a big believer in judging bullet performance from photos (since you've never seen Partitions used on buffalo) here's a photo of four Partitions recovered from buffalo.
The two on the left are 300-grain .375s, fired from a .375 H&H at 2550 fps, with a .375 round next to them to show the scale. They retained 88% and 89% of their weight. One was from an angling-away shot, and the other from a basically broadside shot. The buffalo went about 30-40 yards before falling. Have also killed quite a bit of plains game with 300 .375 Partitions, including my biggest-bodied kudu, but have never recovered one so don't know whether they retained the front core or not.
The two bullets on the right are 400-grain .416s, both from a .416 Rigby at a muzzle velocity of 2400 fps. The one with the intact front core retained 95% of its weight, but even the one that lost its core retained 83%--which is considerably more than half its weight. The one that lost the front core entered the left rear of the ribcage of a big bull that was angling away, then penetrated through the front of the paunch and both lungs before ending up in the right shoulder--which may be where it lost the core, due to hitting bone. As best my PH and I could measure, penetration was at least 5 feet, and perhaps closer to 6. The bull ran about 40 yards and keeled over.
Good hunting.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I am by no means a Nosler fan, but they are designed to lose a lot of the front, causing damage and allowing the shank to penetrate deeper. You guys should just "come to the light" and go T/TTSXs
Hi Jorge,
I hope you weren't meaning to include me among "You guys!" Killed my first animal with a Barnes X in 1989, and took quite a few others with them through the 1990s, as quality (and accuracy) steadily improved--though used Fail Safes somewhat more, because Winchester solved the accuracy/fouling problem earlier.
Started using the TSX in 2003, the year it appeared, when Eileen provided Coni Brooks with the first "field report" of a TSX used on a bull elk--which happened to be a 140-grain from a .270 Winchester. Since then she has used more TSXs than any other bullet--though since 2007 all have been the Tipped TSX's, because they solved the occasional problem of smaller-caliber TSX not opening.
I haven't used them quite as much as she has, mostly because there are always new bullets that need to be field-tested. But have used plenty, probably about half in a pair of .257 Weatherbys, and in fact the last big game animal I killed in 2020 was a mule deer taken at 327 yards with the 175-grain Barnes LRX from a .30-06. Didn't really need that much bullet for the deer, but there was a possibility of running into a grizzly in that area, about 25 miles from our house. It worked well on the deer, though, dropping it instantly with a what Elmer Keith called a "raking" shot--with the typical minimal meat damage.
If I ever hunt buffalo again, will probably use the 270-grain TSX from my .375 H&H, which was the first rifle I took to Africa a few decades ago.
John
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I'm always amused when somebody bases his opinion on a bullet he's never used on what some other people say, and not any actual experience. I'm also always amused when somebody says ALL professional hunters in Africa have exactly the same opinions on a certain subject.
I know quite a few PHs, including several that were guiding during a month-long cull hunt around a dozen American hunters participated in during 2007. I especially remember one beery evening toward the end of the month, when the PHs started arguing about bullets and ballistics. Their opinions were just as diverse as those posted here.
One of the most experienced PHs I've hunted with, and more than once, is the now-retired Kevin Thomas. He grew up in what was then Rhodesia, and one of his early jobs was shooting buffalo off a big ranch, to make way for domestic cattle. That was back when Rhodesia basically didn't have a safari industry, and there weren't many "premium" bullets. His primary choice was a .30-06, handloaded with 180-grain Nosler Partitions, and he was NOT head-shooting buffalo at night, but herds driven past him by the ranch workers. The object was to shoot as many buffalo as possible, to save grass for the "paying" cattle, and he shot everything from calves to big bulls. Eventually he killed over 500--and told me he never had a problem, as long as he could get a clear shot at the chest, whether frontal shots or rear-angling.
Kevin started writing magazine stories and books toward the end of his PH career, and after retiring wrote even more, including a fine book titled THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT BUFFALO, a collection of stories not only by him but several of his long-time PH partners and friends. It's available from several sources on the Internet, and you might learn something from it, though I tend to doubt it.
Cheers!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I’ll just start out saying that this has continued so long I think we are becoming friends! At any rate, I actually never had an opinion on NPT’s, I only shared what I heard and read about. Hell, poachers kill all kinds of game with whatever they can pour down a barrel - a hole in the right place is all you need. I’ll honestly never have an opinion on any bullets except North Forks and A Frames (only 2 I’ve ever used extensively and all I’ll certainly try to ever use- just because they work for me and I tend to stick with what works). I would like to have the funds to go on a “let’s see how these bullets work” hunting trip but until then me and my Westley Richards will still be shooting North Forks. Both started out 500 gr, left is 489, right is 498
Thanks! We're both after the same thing--bullets that shoot well, and penetrate and expand sufficiently to result in quick kills.
Your photos of the North Forks look a lot like the few I've recovered. NFs are great bullets, and I have used them with great success in both Africa (though haven't used them on buffalo) and North America on game up to bull moose. On the moose used the 160-grain from a 7x57,. started at around 2700--which worked great on a 44" bull in Alberta, body size about like those of Cape buffalo in the Selous Reserve. My few recoveries have been in the 95-98% weight range, and NFs have always been easy to get to shoot accurately.
I have been lucky in my hunting life, having had plenty of opportunities not only to try different bullets and cartridges myself, but accompany friends who also used a wide variety of rifles, cartridges and bullets. On that month-long African cull, 189 animals from springbok to buffalo were taken. That was the biggest such hunt I've been on, but have been on several others. They provide a wealth of information.
Another thing I've learned, through getting to know several bullet-makers very well, is that most tend to constantly try to improve the product, by tweaking materials, construction, etc. So results from earlier versions may not be the same as today's product. All of which provides another excuse for more field testing!
Good hunting, John
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I am by no means a Nosler fan, but they are designed to lose a lot of the front, causing damage and allowing the shank to penetrate deeper. You guys should just "come to the light" and go T/TTSXs
Hi Jorge,
I hope you weren't meaning to include me among "You guys!" Killed my first animal with a Barnes X in 1989, and took quite a few others with them through the 1990s, as quality (and accuracy) steadily improved--though used Fail Safes somewhat more, because Winchester solved the accuracy/fouling problem earlier.
Started using the TSX in 2003, the year it appeared, when Eileen provided Coni Brooks with the first "field report" of a TSX used on a bull elk--which happened to be a 140-grain from a .270 Winchester. Since then she has used more TSXs than any other bullet--though since 2007 all have been the Tipped TSX's, because they solved the occasional problem of smaller-caliber TSX not opening.
I haven't used them quite as much as she has, mostly because there are always new bullets that need to be field-tested. But have used plenty, probably about half in a pair of .257 Weatherbys, and in fact the last big game animal I killed in 2020 was a mule deer taken at 327 yards with the 175-grain Barnes LRX from a .30-06. Didn't really need that much bullet for the deer, but there was a possibility of running into a grizzly in that area, about 25 miles from our house. It worked well on the deer, though, dropping it instantly with a what Elmer Keith called a "raking" shot--with the typical minimal meat damage.
If I ever hunt buffalo again, will probably use the 270-grain TSX from my .375 H&H, which was the first rifle I took to Africa a few decades ago.
John
No sir and besides, I was most definitively going the tongue in cheek route. To me Partitions remain the standard and when they shoot that is what I use, but remember a few years ago the only bullet I think Nosler was making in the bigger calibers was the 375 and I was loading for my 416 Rigby so I went with the A Frame. It was only a year or two later than an old poster here JJHack who has a lot of African experience, convinced me to try the TTXs and as I've mentioned before and aside from their performance on game, they have been the most singularly accurate bullet across all the calibers I use. Deep down inside though, I will always have a predilection for cup and cores. And BTW, my double shall never be "soiled" by a mono-metal bullet
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Yeah, I tend to use lead-cores in my doubles and the rifle barrels of my drillings!
One of the more interesting things I recall happening with Nosler Partitions happened when they changed from making them on lathes to impact-extrusion in the mid-1970s. They offered lathe-turned .375s, but their first impact machines wouldn't handle any bullets bigger than .338 or so. The safari industry wasn't as big then, so they dropped the .375s--and the price for the lathe-turned .375s went up to several bucks apiece on the "open market"! Back then they were among the very few controlled-expansion .375 bullets available.
Which is why Lee Reid started making A-Frames. They were the primary .375 controlled-expansion bullets for a number of years--along with .416s, .458s, etc., and pretty much took over the market.
Of course, the safari industry really started growing around that time, and a bunch of companies make controlled-expansion bullets in .375+ caliber bullets. But Swift really got it started.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Another thing I've learned, through getting to know several bullet-makers very well, is that most tend to constantly try to improve the product, by tweaking materials, construction, etc. So results from earlier versions may not be the same as today's product. All of which provides another excuse for more field testing!
Good hunting, John
My PH and I actually were discussing this 2 weeks ago, only he feels that Barnes went the other way with TSX and screwed them up-despite having embraced the TSX when they first came out he has made an about face and thinks they don't work as well as they first did and would rather they not be used by his clients. As I mentioned in another thread, nearly all African PHs would prefer their clients use A Frames. I know of two Alaskan Master Guides as well- one said after 50 years and 500 bears the only ones lost were with TSX, another one asked if I would use A Frames instead of TSX in my hand loads.
I had used TSX exclusively since 2004 except for that Kodiak bear hunt and GSC Customs (same monometal design) for a Dall.
In '18 we had some really poor results while shooting bait for my lion using 300 gr TSX in my 3-7-5 and recovered 3 bullets from bait- one from an eland, another from a buff and a third I can't remember where/what. All good shots, but poor performance. After recovering the bullets he told me he did not want me using the 3-7-5 on my lion and insisted I use my 300 Win as he knew it had the velocity to open up and perform adequately and feared the 3-7-5 TSX would not open up at all. He was right.
I have no problem using the TSX in my 270 & 300 Win in easy to kill animals - like deer, sheep, etc where I know they'll expand and are accurate to 300+ yards. Did the Spanish Slam using my 300 last year. But I won't use them on big game under 3000 fps and I won't use them in my 340 Wby. Fortunately, my 3-7-5 shoots cloverleafs with 300 gr A Frames (and 65 gr of RL 15 mirrors Federal factory ammo) and my 500 shoots 570 gr A Frames to the same point of regulation as the factory 570 gr Hornady and my 570 gr Barnes/CEB solid loads (95 gr RL 15).
John, you’re 100% right - we can never do enough field testing ! Hoping to get to Zambia in September to do just that ! Let me know if you get word of another culling hunt- I wouldn’t mind standing with you shoulder to shoulder
Don't remember. It was one of the last wooden rifles Kevin Weaver built back in the '00s. '41 Pre War action, period correct Tilden safety piece, 26" Krieger barrel. I then bought one of D'arcy Echols' Legend stocks to use it in Alaska.
The bottom is the 3-7-5 in its wooden stock, the top my Charlie Sisk 300 Win- my favorite go to rifle.......
Tony How many animals have you taken with that rifle ? Charlie
The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
Tony, the 300s look ok to me and I suspect velocity might be the culprit with the 375s. I spoke with Connie and Randy Brooks years ago and they both alluded and preferred the lighter (faster) pills for both the 375 (270gr) and the 416 (350gr). Thanks for a great report.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
By coincidence this post from my friend Rick just appeared on the "Ask the Gun Writers" forum:
"I am still recovering from travel to Africa but wanted to share my results using my 375 H&H loaded with 270 gr TSX bullets. Not long ago I shared my loads using CFE223 and IMR 4451. I ended up using loads that gave 2700 rather than pushing for more velocity.
I used it on three Cape buffalo. Each expired after a single shot. The distances were longer than normal for buffalo. They were at 115, 125, and 130. The Buffalo traveled between 15 and 30 yards.
My rifle has a 1-10 twist.
I have used this load on 8 buffalo. The first five were at closer ranges but each needed a single shot and the distances traveled were about the same.
This 375 is much easier to shoot precisely than a normal 416. My experience has forced me to change my mind about wanting a 416 over a 375."
Also might mention that while I have experienced a "hard" batch of TSX bullets, it was long ago, and the bullets were 100-grain .25s. Had a few fail to expand, or at any rate expand completely, both from a .257 Roberts when handloaded to 3150 fps and a .257 Weatherby when loaded to 3550. Also have seen a few others shot by friends into various animals apparently fail to expand--but so far ALL have been in calibers of .30 or less--which have much smaller hollow-points than TSXs above .30 caliber.
The problem with the 100-grain .25s was totally cured by the advent of the Tipped TSX a couple years later. My wife and I have used them on several dozen animals since, from pronghorns at medium-long ranges to cow elk, and all have opened well and killed quickly. This is because the Tipped models ALL have much larger "hollow-points" to accommodate the shank of the plastic tip.
While Barnes doesn't make a .375 270 or 300-grain Tipped TSX, no doubt due to length problems. I am pretty sure the 250 TTSX .375 would work quite well on buffalo.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I guess y’all ain’t eyetalian and didn’t watch The Sopranos.......it’s Frank.
Yeah Jorge that’s exactly why Butch wanted to use the 300 Win on the lion. Again when I showed up for that hunt he was more than happy with the TSX but has since made an about face specifically with the larger (slower) caliber bullets.
Charlie you may remember I ordered this rifle for some upcoming elk hunts back in 2004. I knew what I was talking about because I was on the internet. I insisted on a Krieger CM barrel and wanted it 26”. After a pregnant pause you said “yeah, I can do that. But you know I’ve had some good luck with 24” Lilja barrels, but I’ll do what you want....” at the time I thought Huh......so glad I listened to you!!! I worked up a load with “the new” 180 gr TSX and that rifle has shot one ragged hole ever since.
I’ve got a bunch of sweet custom rifles & had an obsession with Pre War Mod 70s but that Classic you built Charlie is my favorite- that rifle just flat out shoots! Elk x2 second one was 370” so I stopped hunting elk, 380+ super gold stag (shot 5 stags and a chamois that day), black fallow, back to back tahr and an aramapalu ram in the South Island, mule deers in ol’ Mexico, Nilgai, 5 zebra, impala, gemsbok, blesbok, sable, red lechwe, wart hogs, leopard, lion, all 4 Spanish Ibex, many deers......and yes for its birthday I had it repainted in ‘17.
Thanks Charlie for building the best damn rifle I own. At the time I had D’arcy’s order form on my desk but I decided I wanted to go with a fellow Texan.
Cold barrel POI group done over the course of a day. Could have been done over the course of 17 years.
Kevin Thomas tends to just laugh when somebody (which is occasionally a younger PH) claims Partitions aren't adequate for buffalo.
Partitions are never a bad choice. My benchmark.
I will say that I have up to a half dozen cape buffalo down from the 250 TSX in the 9.3 x 62, and another 5-6 that others have taken with my load. Never failed to bring them down quickly. I have confidence that the you'd see the same in the .375 H&H.
Last edited by hatari; 05/03/21.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
I guess y’all ain’t eyetalian and didn’t watch The Sopranos.......it’s Frank.
Yeah Jorge that’s exactly why Butch wanted to use the 300 Win on the lion. Again when I showed up for that hunt he was more than happy with the TSX but has since made an about face specifically with the larger (slower) caliber bullets.
Charlie you may remember I ordered this rifle for some upcoming elk hunts back in 2004. I knew what I was talking about because I was on the internet. I insisted on a Krieger CM barrel and wanted it 26”. After a pregnant pause you said “yeah, I can do that. But you know I’ve had some good luck with 24” Lilja barrels, but I’ll do what you want....” at the time I thought Huh......so glad I listened to you!!! I worked up a load with “the new” 180 gr TSX and that rifle has shot one ragged hole ever since.
I’ve got a bunch of sweet custom rifles & had an obsession with Pre War Mod 70s but that Classic you built Charlie is my favorite- that rifle just flat out shoots! Elk x2 second one was 370” so I stopped hunting elk, 380+ super gold stag (shot 5 stags and a chamois that day), black fallow, back to back tahr and an aramapalu ram in the South Island, mule deers in ol’ Mexico, Nilgai, 5 zebra, impala, gemsbok, blesbok, sable, red lechwe, wart hogs, leopard, lion, all 4 Spanish Ibex, many deers......and yes for its birthday I had it repainted in ‘17.
Thanks Charlie for building the best damn rifle I own. At the time I had D’arcy’s order form on my desk but I decided I wanted to go with a fellow Texan.
Cold barrel POI group done over the course of a day. Could have been done over the course of 17 years.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Kinda tough to ignore the expansion........especially the 90% between the ears........."should I have used the A Frames instead???????"
570 gr (500 Nitro) recovered from a buff at 40 yards 570 gr Barnes solid recovered from elephant skull base for comparison.
The two schools of thought (WBY lightweight ultra high velocity and old school heavy & slow) are both valid but not universal and not for all situations. I'm a firm believer in the slightly heavier slightly faster is ideal. Anecdotally, the sweet spot for 130 gr 270 Win TSX and 180 gr 300 Win TSX is 200-300 yards(the 300 Win is just plain deadly at 3-350 yards)..can't remember where the bullets recovered from an elk at 289 y and the stag at 309 y are but they made a text book X....
I believe in the shorter distances the "pencil through" allegations that the TSX detractors claim are incorrect. I believe they do open up, but they are mechanically efficient and behave more like a solid (who knows maybe they don't open, but I don't believe that), especially if all they're going through is a flimsy piece of meat surrounding air.
Perhaps the lighterish bullets in the heavy calibers going a little bit faster will unwind the petals more, but the undisputed, inherent accuracy advantage the TSX have is kinda a moot point at the distances one hunts dangerous game. And for me- the lackluster performance and in my eyes "failure" to fully expand on that hunt will be etched in my brain forever. (And it doesn't hurt that my DG rifles like A Frames.)
Again, please don't count me as a detractor, just want to pass along what happened- I will continue to use them on my high velocity 3000 fps (I'm old) rounds........
Gerrod of GSCustom posted on AR the importance of twist when using monometal expanding bullets. He also stated that was the main reason to drop down a weight from your normal lead core. I killed an antelope near Medicine Bow, Wy. around 2004/2005 with 180 TSX at 777 yards from my 300 win. The bullet was not recovered, but the internal damage was undistinguishable from animals taken at closer ranges of 100 yards or so. My 30 win sports a 1 in 10 twist.
Not sure the the twist rate on my 416 Rem but I know that it is too slow for 40p grain TSX as they will tumble during penetration and don't open well but, the 350 grain TSX at the same velocity peneyrates straight and expands very well
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Yes quite an informative chap. He convinced me to use one of his 100gr bullets in my .270 on a Dall (can't remember the load but it was zippin around 3450ish.... Did its job- ram dropped on the spot at 257 y. Of course being the stubborn dumbass that I am I still wanted an 130 gr bullet. Sadly I don't know if they're having issues but they haven't had any in stock and not filled a backorder in over a year.
lemme see ---- how do you recover bullets that don't kill the animal ???
Lemme see;
Bullets can be recovered at the end of a very long blood trail. They can be recovered from animals that have been shot multiple times. They can be recovered from animals that were finally killed with something else. I even found one laying on the ground at least once.
So without the back story all I'm seeing are copper bullets that barely expanded.
Life begins at 40. Recoil begins at "Over 40" Coincidence? I don't think so.
Just an update but I leave for africa in a little over 3 weeks. I shot my 375 and 416 with 300gr fail safes and 350TSX respectively. It was a very hard decision but I’m taking the 416 loaded to 1.5gr under barnes’ listed book max with H4831. I guess I’ll just have to book another hunt a try the 375RUM next go around.
Thx to all who responded. Hopefully I’ll post pix when I return. And thx again to Ed for keeping me in bullets for the 416!
I had covid 6 weeks ago…. I showed positive on my PCR test the day before I was supposed to leave….delta said I could go if I got a negative rapid test AND I was cleared to travel by a physician. I got those done but my PH, who I’ve known for many years and fully trust said he had talked to everyone he could and that “no way” should I even get on the plane….he said there was no way to know what the heck the govt officials over there would do to/with me once on their soil….thank you for everyone’s input. Maybe next year…. Very disappointing.
All 3, 300 grain Swift A-Frame from 3 different buffalo with same rifle and box of bullets Mule Deer sent me. Starting velocity was right at 2650. Light one went through both shoulders of my bull. All ranges under 75 yards. All recovered under the hide on the off side.
Mmm, pity they do not penetrate. My shot with 400 grain Woodie went nearly the length of the beast and out between the front legs. Of course it was jus poking along at an MV of 2100. The heart had a big hole in it and that may be what proved fatal .
Good job on the pics.
Last edited by crshelton; 10/04/21.
CRS, NRA Benefactor Life Member, Whittington Center, TSRA, DWWC, DRSS Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/
All 3, 300 grain Swift A-Frame from 3 different buffalo with same rifle and box of bullets Mule Deer sent me. Starting velocity was right at 2650. Light one went through both shoulders of my bull. All ranges under 75 yards. All recovered under the hide on the off side.
That sorta frontal area has to be tough on Buffalo. Thanks for posting the recovered bullets.
If I have older boxes of .375 300 grains Nosler Partition on my shelf, how is it possible to determine if they are pre or post "partition moved forward" ?
If I have older boxes of .375 300 grains Nosler Partition on my shelf, how is it possible to determine if they are pre or post "partition moved forward" ?
Not sure about the location Partition but the older Partitions were supposed to be sought after by big game hunters.
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you cant make that shlt up Buddy.
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